Interesting idea, no?

I was sitting at my desk working on TCOC, adding background tiles and muttering to myself about how long it takes to floor a decently sized level, and then you have to add detail and enemies and such, and how it would be much easier if I had the new background tile feature in 1.0.2. when suddenly I remembered the old saying: "Many hands, make light work... and a great diner!" And then an idea came into my head, what if their was a level designed by a whole group of people? Not only would it be a rather large level, but it would also cut down the time of completion and contain everyones ideas in it! Although it was just a thought made while I was editing my level, I thought it was worth posting to see who else was interested.

Think of the possibilities... :blink:

This post has been edited by Silverwind : 24 February 2007 - 06:40 PM

If you're doing this, i'd certainly take part. It sounds like a great idea, too. Maybe have each person do one section, so that differences in style could be explained...

Sounds interesting. I don't, however, think that we should all attempt to work on the same map concurrently, but rather release in installments. I.e., one person would start and make a self-contained (but extendible) map and release it. Then the next person in line would take that and use it as a starting point, and release the result. Etc...

We would also need a few rules and guidelines - nothing serious. Things like the difficulty must be medium, any one author can place but one upgrade, the section must continue seamlessly from the previous section, all sections must be contained within a set background tile area, and so on. Someone should also be "in charge" of the map - IOW, someone would coordinate the order of designers, review sections for quality and consistency, and be entrusted with the responsibility of passing the map on to the next designer.

I'll have more to say when I get home from work.

Yes, that could be quite interesting. I'd certainly be interested in adding a chunk to any level like this that gets started.

(pseudo-edit) I was working on thinking through the rules that would be needed, but cheleball sums up everything nicely. The one point where I disagree (possibly) is on the "all sections must be contained within a set background tile area" point. I see no reason for having restrictions on where the map can wander off to, as long as any new sections do not block access to previous sections that are set up to be looped back through (if any such sections are created). This is, after all, an exercise in creating a large map, not a limited-area challenge.

Edwards

This post has been edited by Edwards : 24 February 2007 - 07:24 PM

I'll sign up. I just need to finish my current project.

OK. I said I'd have more to say, so here I am saying it.

The following is my opinion of how this ought to work. I'm not trying to take leadership here since it wasn't my idea; I'm just offering up suggestions for consideration. Some of this will be repeated from my previous post, but that's because I want to put it all together and keep it organized. Here goes...

Since this is a multi-designer map, certain limits must be adhered to:

• We only have 200 extra2 links, and we want to avoid conflicts, so I say each designer should be assigned a fixed range of extra2 values that s/he is allowed to use. If we keep it to 10 links/designer, then 20 designers can participate before they are all gone. (Of course, not every designer will use all assigned links.)

• One (and only one) upgrade should be placed in each section. To maximize the life of the map, we shouldn't skip upgrade levels. So, no super weapons before their non-super variants; the second ship should be given before the third; etc.

• While we should be mostly free to design as we will, some effort to maintain consistency throughout the level should be made. What I mean here is that all sections should feel like part of the same level, rather than a series of levels joined by passageways.

• Each section should end such that it is easily extendable, and perhaps contain a "To Be Continued..." notice. There should also be a save point at the end of each section (you never know, maybe we'll get a real saved game feature for custom levels someday).

• Future designers may not modify the work of previous mapmakers, except at the joining point to make the transition seamless. I don't think the save point should be removed, though.

• I really do think some constraint should be placed on how much one designer can do, be it time (one month to finish?), map size (~30 background tiles at 400%?), or file size (can add no more than 100-150K to the file size?). I mostly think we should do it this way so that each section is of an approximately constant size, so that one person does not monopolize the map forever while they make a ginormous section, and also so that people don't feel like they need to "measure up" to the size of the aforementioned ginormous section.

• The difficulty should be normal, medium, whatever you like to call it.

• Designers should not be allowed to use the boss features except by assignment; any bosses placed should use the psuedo-boss techniques documented elsewhere.

• The scenario type should always be "get to the goal" with no time limit. The other two quest types can be built with this one. For example, you could have your five (or more!) stars open the way to the goal, as could beating the boss. In this way, new builders can continue from the end without breaking the quest of the previous section.

• A mapmaking suggestion (not a rule), for when the map gets really big: it should be possible to build your section separately and then SketchMapMerge it into the main map, thus avoiding the performance issues with large maps.

• Mapmakers may use any background/color combinations they like.

That's all I can think of for right now. IMHO, adherence to these simple (and somewhat flexible) guidelines will help ensure the success of this project. What do others think?

(Oh, and the map needs a Daddy. Silverwind, O great Topic Starter, whom will you send? :D)

Your idea(s) sound good. With the rules cheleball and Edwards came up with it should even be possible to realize it. Another point cheleball already mentioned a bit:

• Someone needs to be responsible for the project. He or she gets the map after someone worked on it and passes it at the next designer and of of course has to make backups

I look forward to seeing this finished, because of the many skilled sketchers who work on it with their different styles the map would be very interesting. Hmm, if there was just a limited amount of users possible you should start a list with participators.

@cheleball, on Feb 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said in A multi user designed map.:

(*)We only have 200 extra2 links, and we want to avoid conflicts, so I say each designer should be assigned a fixed range of extra2 values that s/he is allowed to use.

Sounds good. They should be split up after we have a list of who will be involved, though.

@cheleball, on Feb 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said in A multi user designed map.:

(*)I really do think some constraint should be placed on how much one designer can do, be it time (one month to finish?), map size (~30 background tiles at 400%?), or file size (can add no more than 100-150K to the file size?). I mostly think we should do it this way so that each section is of an approximately constant size, so that one person does not monopolize the map forever while they make a ginormous section, and also so that people don't feel like they need to "measure up" to the size of the aforementioned ginormous section.

You're being far too generous with time, there. I'd say a week, tops, and possibly a limit on area- remember, we want this to actually get finished. If someone finds that they can't complete their area in the time period given (due to unexpected real-world commitments, say), they can either lay out a few boundaries and pass it on to the next person, or just change to a later section of the map.

@cheleball, on Feb 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said in A multi user designed map.:

(*)Designers should not be allowed to use the boss features except by assignment; any bosses placed should use the psuedo-boss techniques documented elsewhere.

Do remember that the names Boss1-Boss7 and Mini Boss 2 can be used independently of the boss doors. They're still rare enough that they'd need to be only usable by assignment, but it does mean that there can be ten critters total that use the boss explosion, even if only two of them have true doors, and only one has a health meter.

@cheleball, on Feb 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said in A multi user designed map.:

(*)A mapmaking suggestion (not a rule), for when the map gets really big: it should be possible to build your section separately and then SketchMapMerge it into the main map, thus avoiding the performance issues with large maps.

That reduces the ability to integrate with the previous section, but yes, due to the limitations of the editor, it's probably a good idea (assuming that the GUI version of SketchMapMerge comes out while this map is in developement).

@cheleball, on Feb 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said in A multi user designed map.:

(*)Mapmakers may use any background/color combinations they like.

Setting up the transitions could get a bit iffy, there.

@cheleball, on Feb 24 2007, 10:20 PM, said in A multi user designed map.:

(*)The difficulty should be normal, medium, whatever you like to call it.

Aww... You mean I can't create a gauntlet of Master Turret boxes that the player needs to clear out?

Edwards

@edwards, on Feb 25 2007, 08:03 AM, said in A multi user designed map.:

Setting up the transitions could get a bit iffy, there.

It is possible though albeit a bit of a pain. One (okay, yet another) extremely annoying feature of the engine is that tiled background sprites are not landscaped - i.e. I ought to be able to place two tiled sprites of the same type and orientation with any amount of overlap and not be able to see the join. If there's anyone out there who used to make marathon maps, they'll probably understand what I mean here. In technical terms, it means that the X,Y offset of the sprite affects the XY offset of the texture that is placed over it so that the top-left of the texture is always the same relative to the world coordinate system.

You can always place low-alpha non-solid sprites in the background to help transition from one type to another.

@edwards, on Feb 25 2007, 08:03 AM, said in A multi user designed map.:

Aww... You mean I can't create a gauntlet of Master Turret boxes that the player needs to clear out?

I say go for it! After all (and to bring up my next point) 'difficulty' is a hard thing to judge. You can tell that pretty much from the comments about the original levels. There was a complete range from those who found it extremely difficult to those (like me) who thought it was way too easy.

So I would suggest the following :

+ For concurrent development, someone ought to sit down and divide out the offset land so that people can be given a cordoned off area of map-space that they are working on. They simply need to scroll the editor to that location and begin. There should probably also be a note as to where the inter-connects are going to be.

At this point, the merge operation at the end becomes much easier. To help, the boundaries could be marked out with line sprites on a template map that is passed to everyone.

+ Someone (or people) who are independent (and who probably are not designers themselves) need to be able to test and assess relative difficulty. I personally think the map should get more difficult towards the end though...

+ People really need to know what upgrades the player should have by the time they get to their area - for example the map design (especially with regards to switches, lava particles and force-fields ) changes dramatically as the player gets upgrades. Especially ship 2/3 and the super pellets and (even normal) wave gun.

+ This means (unfortunately) that the map would probably have to be fairly linear in nature. i.e. move from area A to B to C, without the possibility of doing C first. Either that or there needs to be a clear set of rules as to in which sections the player might have which set of upgrades.

Hence I suggest that someone takes the time to actually plan pretty much the whole map out - assigning each area and the upgrade the player can get from it - as well as the interconnects between the areas. Then the map can be dished out to those in charge of each area to fill it in. heh - just like interfaces and implementations in programming really

And yes, I'd certainly be up for taking part, though I'd like to wait until after my current level is done. I would also suggest that we wait until after 1.0.1 comes out.

This post has been edited by Crono : 25 February 2007 - 06:14 AM

I'm afraid I can't participate, but I indeed suggest that there be a project lead that handles putting it all together with SketchMapMerge and knows how to use the command-line version (the current beta will do, with the rotation and moving feature there does not even need for the various people to pay attention to where they put their sublevels), I'm not sure I can release the GUI version in that timeframe. But this is precisely the kind of thing I made SMM for (just imagine doing this without it )

Well now that people are coming forth and getting interested in the idea, I can give you all the full account of what I actually had in mind. Cheleball has pretty much stole my thoughts and posted them as far as rules go, but he also pointed out some facts that I hadn't thought of. Mainly the distribution of Bosses and Upgrades, it's no good if the first area of the level gives you a Beam Gun when you complete it only to be given S. Beam the minute you enter area 2. The same applies visa versa as well. Taking this into account, a suitable distribution of pickups will be drawn up before we get down to editing. As for who will lead the project as some have enquired, I shall take charge. I'll make the first portion of the map, hopefully have it finished by the end of today and pass it on to the next designer to edit. Which brings us to the list of participants. According to the order of signing up, a designer will get their chance to edit a level. For example, Pi Sketch signed up right away so when I finish my section of the level I'll send the file to Pisketch. After Pi has made his section he'll then send it back to me so that I can look over it and make sure it's all well and good and that the difficulty isn't to hard, and I'll then send the file to Cheleball since he was next to sign up and so forth. Anyone who wishes to drop out of the project need only do so by replying to the topic. Also, Freq245, I didn't know wether or not to add you to the list of participants, as you didn't specify if you wanted to take part in the project. But if you do just say so and I'll stick you behind GSN.

Current Participants:

Silverwind
Pi Sketch
Cheleball
Edwards
Grey Shirt Ninja

The Rules: (in a nutshell)

Areas:

A designer must only modify his/her own area, this can be as large as you want, as long as it's not visible to the player when in another players area. (so don't crowd it up to another areas walls) Each designers area must be contained within it's own space and must NOT intersect with another designers area except for the adjoining section between one area and another. Each area can contain no more then ten different Extra 2 values, and only one pickup/upgrade. The pickup/upgrade must be confirmed by me in a reply to this topic or a PM. DO NOT place a pickup/upgrade in your area without my authority!

Time Of Completion:

Each designer has an alloted time period to complete his/her area of one week, the file must then be sent to the next designer. If a designer does not complete his area in the alloted time the file must be sent to me for finishing instead of the next designer. After I have finished adding the next adjoining space I will then send the file on to the next designer.

Bosses:

See Table Of Interest.

Stars:

See Table Of Interest.

Any exceptions to these rules must be approved by me first, either PM your request or reply to this topic.

Table Of Interest:

The Table Of Interest will help us with the distribution of upgrades. If we have 20 participants for example, (that would be so cool!) then we will also have 20 areas. Seeing as how there are 5 stars we could place one in every fourth area, starting with the first one in the third area so that area 20 would be the final area with a Boss or something and area 19 would be the lead up to it. (for example in area 19 you have to find a way to open the front doors to the fortress of doom, area 20) However, because we can only assume the number of participants, it might be best to leave stars out altogether. Either way, the quest must be Race Quest so that it's completion can only be achieved by braving all of the areas. The following is a suggestion for a base standard upgrade distribution table, assuming that there will be 20 participants. (we can use this as a rough no matter what the correct number is)

Distribution Allowances For Pickups And Upgrades:

Areas 1-6: Beam, Homing, Dual Fighter Edition Ship Upgrade.

Areas 7-12 Wave, S. Pellets, Shield Upgrade 1, Trinity Turbo Edition Ship Upgrade. (maybe)

Areas 13-18 Anything that's left.

If I wasn't in such a rush to get to a bowling tournament I'd say more, but being so I'll leave you with this for comments. If anyone thinks of a new rule that should apply please go ahead and say it.

I'd be interested in participating.

Forget what I said earlier about replying to this topic for anything to do with participating, I'll post up the finished rules and list of participants in a minute or so.

I'd be interested in signing up but it depends when i would have the level to add to it because of my own projects. If i do sign up when would we start constructing the level?

This post has been edited by Dogbert : 25 February 2007 - 11:10 AM

See the topic entitled Project Sketch and check the rules on Time Of Completion, it gives all the answers. (well... not really, but it gives a rough)

PS.

Everyone, please make your replies to the topic entitled Project Sketch, that is the topic the project will be hosted in.