possibl EVN rewrite for fans of I and II

EV Nova was one of the most hugely anticipated games for the Mac. After so many fell in love with either EV or EVO, the expectations were very high indeed for EVN. Unfortunately, myself and a few others I've noticed don't like many aspects of EVN. Before you snort in disgust: I'm not trying to say EVN is rubbish or anything like that. I don't think it is a 'true' Escape Velocity though, and heres why:

-Primarily (and the first thing I noticed): EVN gives away half the plot before you even start the game. I (as I'm sure many others) made the mistake of reading all those preambles before I even started playing. Therefore when I started I already knew pretty much the layout of the galaxy, which factions were which etc. In EV and EVO you go into the game pretty much blind, which means you feel you are really discovering the elements of the game as you go, in EVO the transitions between the familiar surrounding areas you notice as you start and then the alien areas are handled very cleverly. The sense of discovery and endeavour in EVO/EV was what made the game so attractive.

-Next: The pace of the game. this is crucial. The pace of EVN confused me at first. I thought I would adapt to it, but now I feel that this aspect has just been badly thought through. What do I mean by pace? Well, to complete the game it took me all of 1 day per mission string. call this 3 playing sessions per string. Then when I completed a mission string I had to start again!! How boring is that? The last thing I want to do when I've only been playing for 4 or 5 hours is start from the beginning. The first time I played EVN I had the misfortune to get lumped with the Vell-os string (which I'll talk about more later).. this mission string just happens to be the worst AND shortest string out of all the major story lines. Then I have to restart and do the all too familiar shuttle/ferrying around stuff in order to get onto another storyline, and this is all within the space of like 3 hours! In EVO it takes a LONG time to complete all the major game strings, at which point you can still complete minor strings and have some fun creating your ultimate ship/dominating/trading etc. After this length of time you feel sufficiently nostalgic for the early stages of the game to restart and complete the game in a different way (either joining another of the 3 strands, playing for voinians etc). This is a much more enjoyable way for the user to experience a game.

-Gameplay: I was pleased at first that the gameplay in EVN was somewhat alien. This gave me the impression I would have to learn a new style of play. I was right of course.. battle in EVN is not completely different to EVO, but the strategy is very different: its all firepower based. I actually think that almost all the weaponry in EVN is way too overpowered. For example: The Nilk Raven is apparently the most powerful ship in the game, yet I can destroy it in less than 10 seconds in a PVIV equipped with beam weapons - wheres the fun in that?. So ships die stupidly fast in EVN - there are certain situations you can get yourself in where you can get stuck at a point in a storyline so that every time you reopen your pilot file your ship is destroyed within in seconds. I once had to resedit the IDA frigate 1150 NC to give it 3000 shields because, during a UN shipping string I was disintegrated within in seconds of departing from Aurora in the Aurora system every time I reopened the pilot file. This basically makes the gameplay a mix of too easy/too difficult.. Certain situations are too difficult just because if you don't have a fast enough ship you are screwed, in another way the game is too easy because with those overpowered weapon any ship can be destroyed extremely quickly. I ended up missing the close combat of EVO with run ins, turret/cannon fire and smart use of limited arsenels (can someone justify why polaron torps and hellhound missiles dont require any weapon space?).. weapons weren't so powerful so battles lasted longer and were more about skill and strategy. Another thing is the problem of ship speed. I can't understand the thinking behind this aspect of the ship specs in EV at all.. the fighters all seem way to slow which completely discourages me from using them. IMO a decent fighter should be able to outrun most of the rockets/missiles you throw at it. In EVO the azdara could outrun ANY missile except perhaps the pursuit missile (which can be easily jammed, takes up weapon space, and also has quite a small payload), ditto for the cresent fighter and perhaps the krait. In EVN the fighters seem barely faster than say a starbridge or valkyrie (especially ugraded versions).. Then at the other end of the scale, capital ships are largely crippled by the sluggishness; although they occaisionally have very high shields and armour, this is no good when you face a deluge of missiles and railgun fire, as if you stay still you will turn into a burnt out smouldering hull very fast... Damn I just want a fast ship like the azdara to fly around in!! I think the acceleration is very often the problem here. Fighter ships in EVO/EV feel much more responsive, and really zip around, EVN you just cruise around.

-Plot: Yup I hate the plot. There I said it. It largely has no sense of humour, full of hyperbole, little action and endless ferrying ships around carrying people places for diplomacy etc BORING! The the little action there is is stunted by being short lived. My one exception is the pirate string which offshoots from the Wild Geese. I did like this string, but it ended too quickly for my liking.. there is so much more they could have done with this string but before you know it you are back in the endgame system (can't remember its name) wishing you had bought an asterroid scoop so that you could save up for the Raven. Then we have the abysmal Vell-os string. I can't stand pretentious crap like telepathic abilities taking a mainstage in the game and all that business with the 'krypt okh' just felt downright silly. I hate being the one chosen saviour of mankind, why can't I just be a humble, anonymous space captain like in EV/EVO - this was part of the appeal of those games.. Then there is the polaris and fed plots which are 90% ferrying.. I could go on but.. snore

So. After that long rant in which I have likely offended half of you readers I will now continue to the point of this thread which is POSITIVE (believe it or not). Basically I want to rewrite EVN, in the form of a plug in. This would serve to turn the game into a TRUE escape velocity installment. EVN engine has some amazing features and some very good ideas within the storylines. I'd like to kick out the bad ideas and take some influence from the whole EV series to rewrite the plot lines.. this would involve reinventing factions, and regrouping the ships and outfits into these new factions. The ships and outfits would be adjusted to give the level of balanced gameplay we had in EVO, then the storylines will be written, cleverly mixing the use of trading, ferrying, battle and exploration to create an overall more enjoyable game.. In my opinion this must be done, otherwise it is a waste of some the awesome features we have in EVN. To all those who, like me, were disappointed somewhat by EVN, respond to this, and hopefully we can get started.

note: the need for extra graphics is at most minimal, if not zero. EVN comes with a huge number of ship/outfit/spob graphics that could be appropriated and reinvented. Tinkering with specs and reinventing the galaxy will be the main task.

Is anyone interested in this project? I can only see this working as something with input from members of the EV playing community and ideally (I hope anyway) some of the people who originally worked on EV classic. If you like EV Nova as it is.. view this as just another plug in.

PS.. part of the reason for me pasting this, is that I have yet to see any promising total rewrite of EVN.. I've also tried a few plug ins that were supposed to balance and familiarise the game to Ev/EVO players but they didnt cut it. If I'm just not looking hard enough please alert me.. though I have trawled through pages of forum content already. This therefore, would be an oppurtunity for the first major rewrite of EVN.

I seriously doubt that you'll find anyone with the time and/or inclination to completely rewrite EVN. Most people around here tend to spend their time on their own ideas and projects rather than reinventing something that has already been done. Basically, if you really want a rewrite of EVN, you should do it yourself.

Welcome to the Boards

PBoat

I agree with PBoat, if you want to do this, do it yourself.

Your having trouble with the UN Aurora mission?!?! I got out of that in an 1170 IDA Frigate with 6 Leviathan escorts without taking ANY armor damage. Just make sure before you do that mission you have afterburners and every speed upgrade you can get. And use the 2x button.

Pad of Heck, on Feb 1 2005, 07:41 PM, said:

Gameplay:I actually think that almost all the weaponry in EVN is way too overpowered. For example: The Nilk Raven is apparently the most powerful ship in the game, yet I can destroy it in less than 10 seconds in a PVIV equipped with beam weapons - wheres the fun in that?. So ships die stupidly fast in EVN.
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Heh. I thought that about EV. After being used to EVO I threw in the EV TC. I picked up a Kestrel but found I could still only take a few missiles before crashing and burning.

This post has been edited by Guy : 02 February 2005 - 12:08 AM

general11, on Feb 1 2005, 08:44 PM, said:

I agree with PBoat, if you want to do this, do it yourself.

Your having trouble with the UN Aurora mission?!?! I got out of that in an 1170 IDA Frigate with 6 Leviathan escorts without taking ANY armor damage. Just make sure before you do that mission you have afterburners and every speed upgrade you can get. And use the 2x button.
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1 Yea I realise a lot of people don't have time... I will do most of it myself for sure. I just want comments every now and again. Maybe when people see the work I've put it in they'll agree more.

2 I only had trouble with that mission because I didn't know it would suddenly spring a system full of angry aurorans on me - I couldn't land on aurora to buy any outifts like the afterburner because the planet simply wouldnt take bribes I tried like 20 times. You could say well I should have had an afterburner anyway.. but I would have bought one if I'd known I'd need the extra speed. As it was with my setup at that precise time it was certainly impossible to escape the system, let alone make it through the next 5 systems to get out of aurora space alive.

Finally 1 more criticism I will level at EVN (there are more, but these are largely details of stuff I've already written, and it would seem pointless to post them up), is the way you earn money. For some reason, it is possible to make a lot more money by ferrying for UN than making money on any major mission string. You think to yourself.. hmm I just aided the defeat of half the galaxy and this 'hefty' wagepacket they are giving me is only 50000 credits?? In EVO you damn well deserve a good reward after defeating the dreadnought right? So you get like 2 million credits. I think the biggest credchip I got on a major string in EVN was like 100000. But I can ferry artwork and business documents around in a shuttle and gain 100000 credits a pop if I look for the good missions in the computer- in a shuttle! Then the prices are all messed up. I can't understand why certain ships are so cheap - like the starbridge for example. I would have probably set the cost of a starbridge to 1.5 million - 2 million credits. And then theres that thing with the polaris where a raven ends up costing like 5 million credits by the time you get to buying it you have sme huge discount in polaris shipyards.. nice thought but it doesn't really make sense in practice. Then theres that problem where you join sigma shipyards, and would expect to get paid more by them for deliveries than the standard bbs computer missions.. but you don't. This may seem unimportant.. but for the game to be believable I think these things need balance.

Some little stuff about EVN I really liked, and will obviously be keeping:
-the 'spaceport' sounds you can hear when you land on certain ports; like port kane. Excellent touch!
-the planet/spob graphics in the normal/system view (I'm not talking about the graphic viewed in the port dialoge, but those a great too). The planet grpahics in EVO and EV sucked! i love the gas giants!
-the running lights and engine glows.
-hypergate system: nice idea - and it really worked.
-new escort controls
-ship variants (like class C starbridge, 1170 IDA frigate etc), and 'used' ship concept.

there are more things of course, but I really liked those features in particular.

My first step in creating this conversion of EVN is change the speed, accel and turn ratings for all the ships that I feel have the wrong levels. I will base this on what the ship is supposed to do, its size/mass, and the level of technology it is built with. Next I will slow down most of the missiles and rockets by a great deal, and significantly lower the damage ratings for each weapon.

Once this is all working I will then remap EVN. There will be a few main factions like in EVN, but these will be less dominant, and spread further apart by uninhabited systems (like in EVO). Many more independant systems will exist, and more smaller factions. Extra pirate systems added too. These factions will be different to those in EVN, EV and EVO, but will have the feel of an EV game. I want this to fit with the EV series somewhat. I won't bother about adding descriptions to any of the spobs at first, unless I have a neat idea that I can write down on the spot. EVN ships will be split up/regrouped, based on the look of the ships, into new sets. Some are already in sets (like the polaris) so I will keep those sets largely the same. This game with certainly have aliens unlike EVN.

The next job will be to redo the mission computers. I expect these will all give missions to the old EVN spobs still, and will need to be reworked. The pay for these missions will be reconsidered. Rival shipping/courier businesses will take shape.

Next job: and perhaps the hardest one in some ways: the commodity exchange. this will need a lot of testing to make sure it isn't flawed. I don't want trade routes which yield too much cash, yet I do want there to be possible trade routes.. although I won't 'predesign' trade routes, as this will make the game feel like the trade system is rigged. I expect to have a lot of fun with the junks though.

Finally I will be able to add character to my spobs. Descriptions will be written for most of these. I want nice ideas, plenty of wit and subtle references to the real world. Don't worry: I'm not a fan of lame humour either. The plot will take shape out of the ideas put into writing these spobs. Major mission strings will emerge. I can only plan this far, I'll have to see where it takes me beyond this.

This post has been edited by Pad of Heck : 02 February 2005 - 04:09 AM

I think that you can give Nova a more EV feel if you just change the speed and shields of all the ships to be somehow dependant on their mass. Context and Restore are perfect tools for this type of thing, as all I would need to do would be to get the right equations and everything ends up working out easily. Of course, getting the "right equations" is the hard part, but I have several ideas.

The only rocket in EVN is the raven rocket, and it stinks. Missiles are not too hot too, and will be crippled enough already if you just make all the heavy ones take mass. You'll have to change railguns as well to either take ammunition or to be similarly slowed down, otherwise they'll be the only good long-range weapon in the game.

I liked Nova's spob descs. I've never seen any stupid humor in them... some in Auroran space nearly are duplicates for each house, but they're generally ok.

It looks to me more like you just want to make a TC which is more EV-like, except using EVN's ships. You're hardly undertaking a mere plug-in, as you're going to be writing new major storylines, new minor storylines, adding new races and factions, possibly removing old ones, and generally making Nova absolutely nothing like it was, rather then making Nova just more EV-like.

Well actually I have a couple of ideas that go beyond the scope of any game in the series so far, yet shouldn't require any coding to implement. I won't give these ideas away in this thread though. If you are intrigued send me a pm or something and I'll tell you a bit about some of my ideas. Who knows, maybe I'll get you interested enough to beta-test or input developement ideas.

Yes I was partly going to base speed/accel/turning on mass, but that is not the only factor to consider.

You said the missiles were not too hot? what about the polaron torp, or the hellhound missile? PS if I speed up certain ships I may find there is little need to slow missiles down. I cannot guess though at this stage. At this stage I think that balancing could involve a mixture of slowing down certain projectile weapons (but mainly missiles) and speed up certain ships. I would also give all missile/rocket/torp weapons mass except raven rockets, chaingun ammo and IR missiles. I would reduce the range of railguns. But as I said, I can't decide everything now.. this will be solved by a system of trial and error until it feels right.

plugin.. TC.. whatever you want to call it.

Phyvo, on Feb 2 2005, 09:17 AM, said:

I liked Nova's spob descs. I've never seen any stupid humor in them... some in Auroran space nearly are duplicates for each house, but they're generally ok.

Largely I agree. I don't recall criticising the spob descs from Nova in any of my posts.

Well, near the end of your last one, you said you talked about your spobs as if what you were trying to replace wasn't that good or used tacky humor. That implied criticism of Nova's spob descs, so...

Anyways, good luck.

I was referring to this comment:

"I want nice ideas, plenty of wit"

the comment "Don't worry: I'm not a fan of lame humour either" was referring to the fact that while I'd like a certain amount of wit.. this won't involve me making lame attempts at humour. I just didn't want to give the wrong impression of my use of the word 'wit'.

Thanks!

Phyvo, on Feb 2 2005, 09:17 AM, said:

It looks to me more like you just want to make a TC which is more EV-like, except using EVN's ships. You're hardly undertaking a mere plug-in, as you're going to be writing new major storylines, new minor storylines, adding new races and factions, possibly removing old ones, and generally making Nova absolutely nothing like it was, rather then making Nova just more EV-like.
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That's exactly what it looks like. Your comments on the real Nova's contrasts with the first two games were dead on, but I don't think your plans for a rewrite as they stand now are headed anywhere positive. Good luck anyway.

EDIT: In other words, I agree with Nick Anderson.

This post has been edited by Luke : 02 February 2005 - 07:51 PM

You make a very good point Pad of Heck. I'm happy to see another developer inspired to try and better EVN, however I disagree. Despite EVN's disappointments I enjoyed it and now am making an expansion for it because I feel it warrants it and by doing so I can add stuff I always to see in EVN. Beating up what EVN was isn't going to change it. Focus on your plans to make a plugin.

Think about the amount of work you would need to do to remake EVN and who has volunteered to help you. I suggest you build off of what EVN is now, repairing it as you see fit, but not changing it drastically. Maybe I misread or missed the point, but that seems like a much more feasible solution.

I'm not one to critiicize ideas, but I feel that I'd rather spend my time in a new universe, not something that feels like an altered version of something I've already spent time on. If you are going to invest the time in what sounds like a fairly intensive plug, as an EV player, I would rather you spend it on something that I haven't seen before. Its just a single player's opinion, do as you want.

Werhner,
a noted rocket scientist

Werhner, on Feb 3 2005, 12:54 AM, said:

I'm not one to critiicize ideas, but I feel that I'd rather spend my time in a new universe, not something that feels like an altered version of something I've already spent time on. If you are going to invest the time in what sounds like a fairly intensive plug, as an EV player, I would rather you spend it on something that I haven't seen before. Its just a single player's opinion, do as you want.

Werhner,
a noted rocket scientist
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Good developers can take the same universe and make it into something completely new to the player. That's something to be admired.

Nick Anderson, on Feb 2 2005, 07:48 PM, said:

You make a very good point Pad of Heck. I'm happy to see another developer inspired to try and better EVN, however I disagree. Despite EVN's disappointments I enjoyed it and now am making an expansion for it because I feel it warrants it and by doing so I can add stuff I always to see in EVN. Beating up what EVN was isn't going to change it. Focus on your plans to make a plugin.

Think about the amount of work you would need to do to remake EVN and who has volunteered to help you. I suggest you build off of what EVN is now, repairing it as you see fit, but not changing it drastically. Maybe I misread or missed the point, but that seems like a much more feasible solution.
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Listen to this man

As much as I like reading the critiques of Nova that occassionally pop up, I'd just like to ask (for reference): how many computer games have you made, Pad of Heck?

Dave Williams
Project Lead @ ATMOS for Escape Velocity Nova

I would second that. I used to write 'demos' for the Commodore 64 ( I know...). Demos are little programs that make the machine do things that it should not do, such as have text in the borders and other such abuses. I would always be antagonized by pepole saying that they could do better, and promising to deliver, but who never did.

It's similar to how guitarists behave as well.

I'm not saying Pad of Heck can't deliver. After all, I've not seen any examples of his previous games. What I will say is that a finished game with flaws is far better than the perfect game... that never gets finished.

I've seen much criticism of Nova over the years. No two posts criticising it are ever the same, and no two people can exactly agree on what's wrong with it. I will say this, though: it's a game that ellicits strong opinions from people. If it sucked really badly, people wouldn't care enough to write long and impassioned speeches about its shortcomings. Secondly, the fact that no one actually agrees on what's wrong with the game suggests that their nitpicks are, in fact, simply issues of personal preference.

In the end, the only person I answer to for the quality of my work on Nova is myself -- I am my own worst critic. I was priviledged to work with fine upstanding people on Nova, and I will always honour these men and women for their forthrightness, talent and friendship.

Dave @ ATMOS

I was talking with pipeline about this, and had to chime in, because it's something I've thought about for some time.

I really think that over time, people have started looking at the original EV through rose colored glasses. It's worth noting that it's one of my all time favorite games, and I doubt you'd find a bigger fan of it, or a stauncher defender, than me. But that said, I think any objective evaluation between EV (and EV:O) and Nova shows a couple of inescapable facts.

First, EV doesn't really have plot to speak of. There are mission strings here and there, and they are fun, and interesting, but in comparison to Nova it's virtually non existent. The two factions have roughly two big stories for each, all of which are a few missions long, and spaced fairly far in between. I recall the first time I was playing the game, getting a mission with an actual thread was something of a shock... they just weren't that common.

Nova actually has stories. You've got intrigue, you've got characters, you have dialogue, you have plot. Whether you like it or not is one thing, but there it is, and it has a lot of it. Saying it doesn't have humor is sort of an odd comparison for me, I guess... I don't recall ever chuckling in amusement while playing EV.

This ties into the second point, namely that people complain the missions are over too quickly, and then you have to start all over.

That's certainly fact, and I agree that it can be offputting in some ways. At the same time, I think people don't realize it's disappointing because they have actually been spoiled by Nova. In EV, missions were so few and far in between that you got used to playing WITHOUT any particular mission driving what you did. Therefore, when you were all through with the missions, well, the game was still there. Missions were a nifty bonus.

In Nova, the stories are intriguing and exciting enough to where after a bit, they become very central to the reason we are playing. (This, incidentally, is also a design reason about why they proceed so quickly... I remember thinking about this during the beta phase, and realized that you can't break up a good story with huge pauses. This, I think, is proven true by the fact that many people complain loudly that there are points in the mission lines where nothing happens for periods of time. The point is, you HAVE to move quickly if you want to effectively involve people).
Because of that, when the missions are done, you also feel 'done'. This was never true in EV, but it is somewhat unavoidable in Nova. Nothing is stopping you from continuing by just playing the universe, doing third party missions, or playing with plugs ins, EXACTLY as in EV. People just have grown to expect more, and were they to be given an EV world today, they'd probably kick and scream.

Third, I think the issue of reward amounts is very relative to the universe. It doesn't matter how big the reward 'seems', what matters is how valuable it is. You have to take into account the entire game economy, and from that perspective, it certainly seems to work well enough, I don't anyone who's finished the game at poverty level, or been frustrated by not being able to have enough money.

I guess the issue of balance is fairly subjective, but I think what many people are actually complaining about is that there isn't any 'super ship' like we all got in EV after a period of time. Actually, I should ammend that.. there ARE. It all depends in how you play, you know... the races all have very different ships, and the amount of damage some Polaris ships can soak up just isn't funny.

At any rate, I guess I just never felt like I was playing against stacked odds, or in a system where all it mattered was how big a gun I had. I still had to fly my heart out, and every armor upgrade was my friend. It is a different universe, that is true, but that was part of the goal.

Anyway, I'm rambling. The point is, while ultimately what games we like is a matter of taste, lets not forget that many things we complain about Nova are features that were never even present in EV, period.

Here is my big complaint about both EV and Nova: Why don't people make some expansions to the universe, instead of always wanting to reinvent the clock? If being 'done' so soon is so aggravating, wouldn't it be nice to use the feature of plug ins to extend the lifetime of that pilot we just played?

I wish, I wish.