This is not Coldstone-specific (since many of the game's features have not been officially determined, or cannot be discussed), but is related. This is "things I'd like to see in an RPG (made by Coldstone, perhaps? :))" I offer this in hopes of inspiring those of you who have already begun plotting out your games...

So. Things I'd like to see in an RPG:

1. Initial character choice making a big difference. In games like Diablo, your character choice mainly affects what sort of combat strategy you employ. I'd like to see an RPG where NPCs react to you differently based on your class/race/alignment. "We don't serve dwarves in this inn any more. The paying customers complained about the stink. Now get out of here before I call the guards!" or "You're a paladin? Really? Would you mind taking my son as your squire?" or "I don't think I can trust a mage like you to look in on the prisoner - I can't afford to have him conveniently 'disappear.'" or ... you get the idea. One where who you are affects how people react, what plotlines are available, what opportunities you have, etc, etc.

2. Meaningful player choice. In other words, the complete opposite of Dragon Warrior's "Dost thou love me?" "No." "But thou must. Dost thou love me?" "No." "But thou must. Dost thou love me?" (Of course, that was an extreme example. :D) I want to see an RPG where your decisions have drastic effects on the development in the plot, not one where all you can do is affect a few lines of dialogue, or which minor characters appear in a given cutscene.

3. World development. Let the world change as a result of the player's actions. If he rescues a village child, let the townsfolk recognize him as a hero! If he eliminates an evil necromancer, let the surrounding withered lands slowly recover and turn green once again. If he deposes a false ruler who levied excessive taxes, let the state of the peasants change as they can once again afford to paint their homes, buy bright clothing, and sell their extra crops at fair prices. Feedback to the player is a good thing.

That's all I have right now. Anyone else?

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Back in my day, we didn't have any of this here UBB nonsense. It was DiscBoard or nothing, and we liked it!
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." - Mark Twain
"The answer is yes or no , depending on the interpretation." - Albert Einstein

Dragon Warrior. Great game!

I have to agree here, though. This is one thing table top RPGs still have over computer games: total freedom. A quick thinking GM can allow his players to do anything they want and orchestrate reasonable NPC and game world reactions. I'm reminded of Fallout's Karma system, where good and bad deeds registered differently and supposedly provoked varying NPC responses. I wonder if Coldstone will allow a permanent Stat for the player that can be changed by his actions and change the state of his environment as he adventures...?

As far as what I'd like to see, I have to say fighting is fun, but let's not forget the excitement of the occasional chase or sneak. I dont mind running into a monster I obviously can't beat if there is a way to escape it, and timing stealthy dashes between guard patrols is quite a rush if there's a lot on the line (play Thief: The Dark Project for the best example of this).

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"I'll give the fans just what they want, and nothing else at all."

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Originally posted by myshkyn:
**I wonder if Coldstone will allow a permanent Stat for the player that can be changed by his actions and change the state of his environment as he adventures...?

**

This is entirely possible through the use of global variables and key events.

Saphfire

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I think that we're already beginning to see a lot of what you're talking about in #1. All the newer D&D; games have shown a dedication to making distinctions based on not only appearances, but also history and dialog. I think the classic RPG is finally getting the makeover that it had long needed.

I'm not sure I completely agree with you on your second two points. Although I'm all for dynamic game envioronments that allow for not only story changes, but also graphic and interactive changes, they pose serious problems for the writers and game developers. At a certain point, you have to decide how much is just too much.

Some games (and gaming platforms) were designed to accomodate large, sweeping changes based on the choices you make as a character. The new (url="http://"http://www.oddworld.com")Oddworld(/url) game for the (url="http://"http://www.xbox.com")XBox(/url) is going to include the sort of thing you were taling about in #3. The world will change depending on who you kill/save/help/whatever. Also, the game (url="http://"http://www.bwgame.com")Black&White;(/url) from (url="http://"http://www.lionhead.co.uk")Lionhead(/url) is based almost entirely upon the idea that what you do is who you are. Those games were designed to be able to do things like that. Our home computers were, in general, not. And even those of us that do have machines that can handle high-end graphics display probably still won't be able to produce those graphics. And let's not even talk about engine limitations... (I know, your comments were not completely Coldstone related.)

And the writers... lets not forget about those poor souls. If you've spent 2 years writing out your masterpiece of a game, with every plot detail worked out down to the last minescule detail, and are finaly staring at a masterpiece of contemporary fiction, you are not going to want to start hacking at it just to make it more open ended and give it more of a branching structure. Some stories will only be worth hearing if told in a singular and straight-forward way. Call them boring, and single-minded, and foolish, but they are just as valid as any other form of expression -- and, they've been the backbone of the gaming industry for nigh on 20 years. Video games form a sort of an in-between for people who cannot or will not enter the film industry but who still see writing as either too static or feel the need for visual representation in their story. (note: Comic books also serve this purpose -- little wonder that so many people who like video games also read comics to some degree)

The ideas you are talking about do have a home -- the MMORPG. I consider this genre of gaming to be an utterly and completely new animal from anything that we have yet seen. I don't necessarily call them better, but in all ways different. As soon as you incorperate other living humans into your game, you are no longer really in the same class as you were while just synthesising plot branches and dialog outcomes. Like I said, there is a place for what you are describing/advising in your post. People need to think long and hard about just whether or not they want that place to be their game. Coldstone appears to be capable of doing many wonderfull things, but that still does not detract from the massive amount of time and effort it takes to make an open-ended game structure come together. We here will not be making MMORPGs. So a begining, middle, and end should be expected from all of the games we produce. I personally will be trying to stick with a fairly straightforward plotline, but best of luck to anyone who really wants to reach for the stars on this one.

(edited for UBB mistakes and spelling)

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Do not follow me for I may not lead. Do not lead for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me, either. Just leave me the hell alone.
-Jedi

(This message has been edited by jmitchell (edited 04-29-2001).)

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Originally posted by jmitchell:
**I'm not sure I completely agree with you on your second two points. Although I'm all for dynamic game envioronments that allow for not only story changes, but also graphic and interactive changes, they pose serious problems for the writers and game developers. At a certain point, you have to decide how much is just too much.

<...>

And the writers... lets not forget about those poor souls. If you've spent 2 years writing out your masterpiece of a game, with every plot detail worked out down to the last minescule detail, and are finaly staring at a masterpiece of contemporary fiction, you are not going to want to start hacking at it just to make it more open ended and give it more of a branching structure. Some stories will only be worth hearing if told in a singular and straight-forward way.
**

I see your point. I suppose that in the context of computer games, I didn't mean to imply truly dynamic environments a la Black and White. Computers just aren't to the point where they can give the player true freedom and tell a compelling story. Nor am I particularly interested in "open ended" storylines - I like to have a powerful finish to the story as much as anyone else.

I suppose that what I meant by #2 is to have a few key points in the storyline where a player's choice can send the plot off into an entirely different, but still exciting, direction. Of course this would not be easy, but it is certainly possible. Consider it a challenge. Some examples of what I mean, taken from some older, fairly linear RPGs: In FF6, what if Shadow had decided to reveal his history upon meeting Strago and Relm? In FF4, what if someone other than Yang had sacrificed himself in the Tower of Bab-Il? In Chrono Trigger, what if Chrono and Lucca had failed to set history straight upon their first visit to the past? All of these could potentially lead to an entirely different story.

Likewise, in #3, I'm just saying that I'd like to see more effects of the plot changes, not that the player controls every aspect of the world. More along the line of "when plot event X occurs, change the world in ways A, B, C, D, and E". In most RPGs I've played, this sort of change occurs only once or twice for any given area, and only when some major event happens that directly affects the area. I'd like to see more frequent, more far-reaching changes in the world.

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Call them boring, and single-minded, and foolish, but they are just as valid as any other form of expression -- and, they've been the backbone of the gaming industry for nigh on 20 years. Video games form a sort of an in-between for people who cannot or will not enter the film industry but who still see writing as either too static or feel the need for visual representation in their story. (note: Comic books also serve this purpose -- little wonder that so many people who like video games also read comics to some degree)

I hear what you're saying about the nature of linear video games. They definitely have their place, and it's a good one as well. I'm certainly not saying that they're bad, merely that I'd love to see something which went above and beyond this level.

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**The ideas you are talking about do have a home -- the MMORPG. I consider this genre of gaming to be an utterly and completely new animal from anything that we have yet seen.
<...>
So a begining, middle, and end should be expected from all of the games we produce. I personally will be trying to stick with a fairly straightforward plotline, but best of luck to anyone who really wants to reach for the stars on this one.
**

In my opinion, the MMORPG is too open-ended for the sort of thing I'm talking about. First off, in an MMORPG, you can't have a single protagonist, or even group of protagonists. Every player has to be given a chance to be the protagonist, while around them the "system" provides minor characters and perhaps opponents as well. With the only intelligent agents being a plethora of heroes, it becomes extremely difficult to form a coherent storyline. Of course, it's possible for players to agree to build a storyline between themselves, but that is basically external to the game - it could be done just as well without the game framework. I've yet to see a MMORPG that really has a plot.

And of course your game had better have a darn good story. But why restrict yourself to only one?

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Back in my day, we didn't have any of this here UBB nonsense. It was DiscBoard or nothing, and we liked it!
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." - Mark Twain
"The answer is yes or no , depending on the interpretation." - Albert Einstein

I think it's long overdue for decisions you make in a game to matter. I remember playing Final Fantasy VII and being in awe of the graphics and the story and battles. I was playing that game for hours on end. Then Cloud got into a conversation with one of the girls, I can't even remember which one, and she asked about his feelings for another girl. I hoped beyond hope that my answer would matter, but it didn't. I could have the same conversation with her and answer either way and it didn't make a damn bit of difference in the game. My thirst for the game instantly dwindled once I realized it was like every other RPG ever made as far as decision making goes. Of course characters and story development is one of the most important things to me when I play an RPG so maybe that bugged me a lot more than it would most other people. The game didn't suck because that decision didn't matter, but it did lose a little appeal for me.

I'm a writer myself so I tend to be critical of little things like that in the story. It's the thing my friends and I harp on most when we play games like the Final Fantasy series that lean heavily on storyline. There's absolutely no point in putting a decision for you to make in the game if it won't matter what you decide. You'd be better served just putting in the old "..." response and be done with it.

It is hard making a branching storyline to accomodate multiple paths, but if a writer puts the decision in your hands, then he'd better have a reason to do it. From my point of view, the "Dost thou love me?" decision in Dragon Warrior (I still have the copy of that game in origional factory packaging I got for signing up with Nintendo Power!) and the decision I brought up in Final Fantasy VII are the exact same. Neither of them have no impact on the game whatsoever. Think of two decisions as two doors. Either choice leads to the same exact room. It doesn't matter what door you take. If I'm forced to make a decision, I want to see the ramifications of that decision. Give me a different room! Maybe with a big screen tv and matching bean bag. Now, obviously if you put decisions like that in the game every ten or fifteen minutes, it might get a wee bit unwieldly. But two or three decisions that alter even a small part of the game shouldn't be that much to ask when you have to pay 40 or 50 bucks a pop.

Now I'm not one of those holier than thou types who views everything not written by me as crap. I call myself a writer simply because I enjoy writing. Nothing more or less. I won't let you down, Glenn! Maybe your choice of boxers or tighty whities in the morning determines which guild you join in the afternoon. Or maybe not, ew. But since I can't draw a decent stick man WITH a ruler, I'll have to concentrate on making darn good story. Those are my guns and I'm stickin' to 'em.

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Money is not the root of all evil, Jar Jar Binks is.

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Originally posted by samuraicat:
**There's absolutely no point in putting a decision for you to make in the game if it won't matter what you decide. You'd be better served just putting in the old "..." response and be done with it.
**

Well said.

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I won't let you down, Glenn!

Thanks.

If any of you other Coldstone people don't quite follow what I meant, read samuraicat's post. He's a lot more lucid than I was, and gives better examples.

Incidentally, "samuraicat" as in Miaowara Tomokato? Or some other martial feline?

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Back in my day, we didn't have any of this here UBB nonsense. It was DiscBoard or nothing, and we liked it!
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." - Mark Twain
"The answer is yes or no , depending on the interpretation." - Albert Einstein

Quote

Originally posted by Glenn:
**
Incidentally, "samuraicat" as in Miaowara Tomokato? Or some other martial feline?
**

I am indeed a huge fan of Mark E. Rogers' sword swingin', blood spraying cat. If only my game could have half the body count as a Samuraicat book.

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Money is not the root of all evil, Jar Jar Binks is.

Great topic!

I think that the caste/race specific stuff is good, how about features that allow you to really shape your own character and make it individual like assigning different amounts of 'character points' to each attribute of your character that you want to be developed more as your character gains experience levels, e.g say you had a maximum of 50 'character points' and you assigned 10 to brawn, 10 to agility, 10 to skill, 10 to magical ability, 10 to endurance and 10 to stealth then you would have a very rounded character. Just as you assign spell selection points to spells as you go up each level in realmz you could have it like that for all attributes.

(:Pad

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There is already a game that has everything you "want," and it's been on the market for quite a long time. It is called Deus Ex.

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Originally posted by Glenn:
**This is not Coldstone-specific (since many of the game's features have not been officially determined, or cannot be discussed), but is related. This is "things I'd like to see in an RPG (made by Coldstone, perhaps?:) )" I offer this in hopes of inspiring those of you who have already begun plotting out your games...

So. Things I'd like to see in an RPG:

1. Initial character choice making a big difference. In games like Diablo, your character choice mainly affects what sort of combat strategy you employ. I'd like to see an RPG where NPCs react to you differently based on your class/race/alignment. "We don't serve dwarves in this inn any more. The paying customers complained about the stink. Now get out of here before I call the guards!" or "You're a paladin? Really? Would you mind taking my son as your squire?" or "I don't think I can trust a mage like you to look in on the prisoner - I can't afford to have him conveniently 'disappear.'" or ... you get the idea. One where who you are affects how people react, what plotlines are available, what opportunities you have, etc, etc.
   **

I plan to have this feature prominently in my game. You see, when the Goblins left the Westlands for the Northlands, Southlands, and Midlands, all the Dwarves and Orcs were too busy killing eachother to follow. The Goblins had a deep hatred of the Orcs, due to the years of slavery at the hands of the Orcish kingdom of Urgthok Mag Tuhkahk, so they poisoned the minds of the humans and elves in the Midlands, causing a vicious hatred of all Orcs. This was made easier by the subsequent invasion of the Mountain Orcs, who aren't Orcs at all, but were vicious enough so that no one cared. Likewise, the Goblins of the Midlands spread lies about the Dwarves, but this was for strictly commercial reasons. At the time, the Goblins were the only race in the Midlands capable of constructing internal combustion engines, fire arms, steamships, and other advances, and they didn't want the Dwarves to come and steal the market with their more stable weaponry, which is more expensive, but less likely to blow up randomly. The Dwarves understood this, and signaled that they accepted this by murdering several well known Goblin executives and stock brokers in the Northlands who knew nothing about any of this. This led to a war between the Goblins and their Northlander human pals, and the Dwarves and their Northlander human pals that left 50,000 dead. All this had the net result of making it so that the average Orc or Dwarf will be turned away from most taverns of they ask for so much as a mug of grog, or perhaps served up with a musket round or arrow in the back.

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Cross over the cell bars, find a new maze, make the maze from it's path, find the cell bars, cross over the bars, find a maze, make the maze from its path, eat the food, eat the path.
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The knack lies in throwing yourself at the ground and missing."