I imagine that this has been asked before. Nevertheless I'm asking, since there isn't an answer in the Coldstone FAQ yet.

To what degree will we be allowed to customize an RPG's battle system? One of the most important aspects of RPG pre-design is to create the battle system, to flesh it out and decide the rules and such. If we want to go with something other than the default battle system provided by Coldstone, how much freedom will we have? And how will this be done?

Thanks for your time. Looking forward to the final product,

-Nij

Coldstone gives you very little control over the battle system. That's not to say that a little control can't be taken...

The included system is a realtime engine, very similar to Diablo, though from what I've see of it, there are still some bugs to be worked out (particularly in the movement control sector. "ho hum. missed that monster again...") However, I have full confidence that the myrads of dedicated turn/meter based battle fans will find some way to create their own systems, using tricks and hacks. After all, it's much easier to go from real-time to turn based than the other way around. Once someone figures it out, there will probably be three different sites dedicated to the procedure, so I wouldn't worry about getting left out of the customized battle system party.

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Do not follow me for I may not lead. Do not lead for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me, either. Just leave me the hell alone.
-Jedi

Coldstone's battle engine (and graphics engine, and... well, most everything else about the program ) is still under development. Wait for version 1.0.

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Back in my day, we didn't have any of this here UBB nonsense. It was DiscBoard or nothing, and we liked it!
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." - Mark Twain
"The answer is yes or no , depending on the interpretation." - Albert Einstein

Plan! Wait! Plan! Wait! When will this madness end :)?

I've been waiting (patiently, somewhat) for more than a year, and it looks like I'll have to wait even longer. Oh well, no big deal, IF it's worth it. But what is the budding designer to do, when the engine isn't even finalized? Waiting, wishing, and hoping over here. Let's hope you live up to your praise.

Saphfire

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Hmm... that's extremely disturbing. It sounds as if Coldstone is being designed for the guys who want to make AD&D-style; RPGs; in doing so the developers would be assuming that the target audience is pretty shallow...

Despite a good RPG's emphasis on storyline, music, and characters, the very heart of the game is the battle system-- a thinking man's storyline is nothing without thinking man's gameplay, and if there's any game I would classify as "mindless", it is Diablo. If it's true that Coldstone seeks to emulate Diablo's gameplay while not providing the end users with any way to modify the gameplay, I'm very disappointed.

Thoughts?

-Nij

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The creators of Diablo admitted to wanting a game that was a cross between an RPG and Doom: an RPG that would allow you to blow off steam by hacking through hordes of beasts. Yes, mindless. (I love Diablo.) Diablo bypassed the need for a real combat system by throwing waves of enemies at you, turning mere point and click into frantic mouse acrobatics, but that doesn't mean it's the only way for a real time system to go. Depending on how much control we are given over the details, real time can be made on such a way as to demand strategy.

Can we defend? Does it matter which direction you hit an enemy from? Can you click on different parts of a graphic to hit the enemy different places (the limb to stop an attack, the legs to topple, the body to bully about)? Can the character "lock on" to a target and drag the mouse different wways for different attacks? Can we chord keys with clicks to attack differently? Will there be a way to make a faster, dodgy movement during combat? Will certain monsters only be vulnerable during specific frames of their animations? Maybe set up target "hot spots" around the enemies instead of clicking on the enemy itself, that flash different colors or in tricky rythms; hit this color to evade, hit this one to attack, hit that one to disarm...

I don't pose all these to be answered, just to list ideas. The mass combat chaos I love from Diablo won't work for my RPG, but I'm ready to wrestle the combat system into a form that will.

myshkyn

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"I'll give the fans just what they want, and nothing else at all."

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Originally posted by myshkyn:
I don't pose all these to be answered, just to list ideas. The mass combat chaos I love from Diablo won't work for my RPG, but I'm ready to wrestle the combat system into a form that will.

Just what I mean. Diablo has its place and its place is not in an RPG, particularly not the one I'm planning, or the one you're planning, or the one anyone else on this board is planning. Such a mindless combat system would undermine the integrity of any game I or anyone else may attempt to make. Therefore we need the ability to alter the combat system and build our own.

I'd like to ask that those of you who agree with me post in the affirmative, in order to show Beenox and Ambrosia a measure of the support for this feature that exists on this particular message board.

-Nij

I'm sorry folks, but Coldstone is already in late beta. I sincerely doubt that Beenox and Ambrosia will take requests for any drastic feature changes at this point. And as I said before, the battle engine is still in development. Wait until you see it before you make any criticisms. Thanks.

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Back in my day, we didn't have any of this here UBB nonsense. It was DiscBoard or nothing, and we liked it!
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." - Mark Twain
"The answer is yes or no , depending on the interpretation." - Albert Einstein

Quote

Originally posted by Glenn:
I'm sorry folks, but Coldstone is already in late beta. I sincerely doubt that Beenox and Ambrosia will take requests for any drastic feature changes at this point. And as I said before, the battle engine is still in development. Wait until you see it before you make any criticisms. Thanks.:)

That would involve my purchasing the software, something I have no need or desire to do if the battle engine is first based on Diablo and next cannot be altered in any fashion. Hence this post.

In any case, to elaborate on my original question, is there anyone who has perhaps used a recent build of the software who can tell me how far, or if, the battle system can be altered at all?

Again, thanks for your time, and for those posts from other folks in this thread.

-Nij

Quote

Originally posted by myshkyn:
**Can we defend? Does it matter which direction you hit an enemy from? Can you click on different parts of a graphic to hit the enemy different places (the limb to stop an attack, the legs to topple, the body to bully about)? Can the character "lock on" to a target and drag the mouse different wways for different attacks? Can we chord keys with clicks to attack differently? Will there be a way to make a faster, dodgy movement during combat? Will certain monsters only be vulnerable during specific frames of their animations? Maybe set up target "hot spots" around the enemies instead of clicking on the enemy itself, that flash different colors or in tricky rythms; hit this color to evade, hit this one to attack, hit that one to disarm...

**

First of all, I'm almost positive that the battle system is now keyboard hot-key based, rather than point-and-click, an enormous improvement in my opinion, but you may beg to differ. There may even be a choice. Next, those are very good ideas for strategy, and may be implemented with keyboard, but have you ever tried to do all of that with a mouse? Highly impossible.

Nair, I'm quite pleased with the current battle engines (after some customizations and animations, of course), the graphics engine is superb, but the true test in my book will come from p...nevermind, this topic has nothing to do with that.

Saphfire

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Quote

Originally posted by saphfire:
**First of all, I'm almost positive that the battle system is now keyboard hot-key based, rather than point-and-click, an enormous improvement in my opinion, but you may beg to differ. There may even be a choice. Next, those are very good ideas for strategy, and may be implemented with keyboard, but have you ever tried to do all of that with a mouse? Highly impossible.

Nair, I'm quite pleased with the current battle engines (after some customizations and animations, of course), the graphics engine is superb, but the true test in my book will come from p...nevermind, this topic has nothing to do with that.

Saphfire

**

about the complex mouse maneuvers, well I hear that you have to implement them to cast spells in the recently released Black and White(for PC of course). I may have to get that game...

let me guess... p means parties?

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"How can everything be nothing?"

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Originally posted by Lorenoth:
**let me guess... p means parties?

**

I didn't say a word...

Saphfire

BTW, think what you will, but take it elsewhere, in a topic regarding it, because this is no place for it, which is why I must bite my tongue.

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Quote

Originally posted by Nijhazer:
**That would involve my purchasing the software, something I have no need or desire to do if the battle engine is first based on Diablo and next cannot be altered in any fashion. Hence this post.
**

Ambrosia has yet to release a title that was not offered first in functional demo form or downloadable shareware. I'm positive you will be able to test out the engine before buying.

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Do not follow me for I may not lead. Do not lead for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me, either. Just leave me the hell alone.
-Jedi

Lemme ask another question along this line. If the battle system is set with little customization as far as what the player does, could it be possible to script the game so as to have an NPC follow the player's character at all times? Anyone play Magic Knight Rayearth on the Saturn? That's kinda what I'm thinking, you could just have the player's party follow and act according to set instructions ("cast offensive magic" or "heal if damage taken" etc...). Silver for the PC and Dreamcast is another example of this, for portions of the game the users character's allies fight alongside him, but are not directly controlable by the user.

In otherwords, you could set the game up so that the party acts on it's own. Warriors engage in melee combat, clerics heal other party members, and so on and so forth.

sol

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about the follower NPC's... my GUESS is that you can make NPC's follow you. I get the idea u can do this because u can make any old NPC run up to the main character, and start a dialogue.. I mean that pretty much has to be in the game. So maybe if u made it so the character just followed the player.. hmm. Well since I don't have CS then I'll just have to speculate randomly..
oh but I do like the idea of follower NPC's. That's the type of party I want in my game, kinda like the hirelings and minions in Diablo2. Of course the AI will have to be complex, and I want to make the player be able to customize it.

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"I felt you.. dying"
"I'm dying..?"
"I won't let you die..."

Nice idea, but still an attempt to create something out of nothing...it might work in your game, but unfortunately, it will not work for mine. Of course I don't expect the engine to cater to my every whim to assist in my creations, but such a hotly passioned topic such as these should be included.

Sigh, they never listen. Reads over yet another topic about parties that feels out of place in a topic about battle. I guess this could be rationalized by including parties in battle.

Saphfire

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For those concerned that a Diablo style combat system is the kiss of death to making a thinking man's (or woman's) game, look to the past for inspiration. The Legend of Zelda for the NES, for instance. Over a decade old, and it's still a deeper game than much of the stuff being churned out today. Zelda controls very much like a CS game would if indeed the keyboard is used instead of the mouse to control character movement. An immense amount of stragegy can be incorporated into a real time game if you put your back into it. Just because Diablo's creators are lazy on the stragegy end of things doesn't mean you half to be. But if by strategy you mean turn based, than you may be disappointed. The screen shots showing the health bars above the enemies seem to indicate a real time system, though I could very well be wrong. In any event, these are my opinions with no hard facts to back them up. Take them as you will.

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Money is not the root of all evil, Jar Jar Binks is.

Quote

Originally posted by samuraicat:
**For those concerned that a Diablo style combat system is the kiss of death to making a thinking man's (or woman's) game, look to the past for inspiration. The Legend of Zelda for the NES, for instance. Over a decade old, and it's still a deeper game than much of the stuff being churned out today. Zelda controls very much like a CS game would if indeed the keyboard is used instead of the mouse to control character movement. An immense amount of stragegy can be incorporated into a real time game if you put your back into it. Just because Diablo's creators are lazy on the stragegy end of things doesn't mean you half to be. But if by strategy you mean turn based, than you may be disappointed. The screen shots showing the health bars above the enemies seem to indicate a real time system, though I could very well be wrong. In any event, these are my opinions with no hard facts to back them up. Take them as you will.
**

No offense, but this isn't the point. The idea is that just as each possible RPG that a user can create with Coldstone will have its own themes and ideas, so one Diablo-like battle system will not suit every game. Similarly, allowing RPG designers to customize the battle system ensures that each different game will be more worthwhile; I would hate to think that the many different kinds of RPGs that can be created with Coldstone will all play the exact same way, via a non-customizable battle system modeled after a game that, in my opinion, grew tiresome long ago.

-Nij

Quote

Originally posted by Nijhazer:
**No offense, but this isn't the point. The idea is that just as each possible RPG that a user can create with Coldstone will have its own themes and ideas, so one Diablo-like battle system will not suit every game. Similarly, allowing RPG designers to customize the battle system ensures that each different game will be more worthwhile; I would hate to think that the many different kinds of RPGs that can be created with Coldstone will all play the exact same way, via a non-customizable battle system modeled after a game that, in my opinion, grew tiresome long ago.

-Nij
**

Don't worry about offending me, none of my friends seem to Seriously though, I see your point. Unfortunately, I think the old addage about pleasing all of the people all of the time is going to bite us all in the butt. From what it sounds like to me, battle looks to be one guy walking around sticking his sword into baddies until they're done. No parties and no turn based fighting. That's just what it seems like to me from reading some of the posts and looking at movies and screen shots. Personally, I prefer a game like that. But I realize a lot of people don't. Anyone reading these posts for more than five seconds realizes a lot of people don't. But I think if the developers try to do too much, either the game will be delayed until Mac OS XXVIII ships or it will try to do everything that everyone wants, but do it terribly. And much like Mac OS X, this will be a 1.0 version. Let's give it a chance before we write it off. Here's hoping Coldstone will leave us talking about what it can do instead of what it can't when it's released.

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Money is not the root of all evil, Jar Jar Binks is.

I agree, and Coldstone deserves more than a chance. But so do we, the millions of fans, gamers, creators, who know what others want, if not, what WE want. That's what this is all about. Sure, you can't please all, but you can please the majority. If the majority wants parties, add support for parties. If the majority wants fuzzy pickles, add fuzzy pickles. As long as you have the control, resources, and to appease them. If the public is undecided, offer a choice or make a snapshot call. The best approach, in my mind, is user customization, so we don't have a bunch of clones walking around, same gameplay, different graphics and story. Personally, I'd be willing to wait for something that gives me freedom and boundless imagination.

Saphfire

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