What do we do.

Bohemian Muskrat

This is a brainstorming post, not designed to accuse or demand, but to question and suggest.

What can "we", those interested in plug developement do to encourage the creation of more high quality plugs. Some obvious answers include things already done to some degree:

releasing and updating editors and guides
answering questions on this board
posting advice and idead
making our own projects successful

some other possibilities: (ok, some of them might be lame, but I'll let you all be the judge)

a form of "plug making school" taught by experienced plug makers in which they have to accomplish limited tasks while being monitored and assisted by their instructors.

experienced plug makers releasing more smaller scale TCs which are "openware" in that anyone is allowed to add onto them. Perhaps a few plugs the size of original EV with everything except for missions complete? (this might also encourage people away from the "bigger is better" mentality which seems to keep people from accomplishing more limited goals)

more computer models made available in addition to images (this allows for greater creativety as well as learning from experienced graphics people.)

creation of a "new plug-in maker" contest with small prizes (maybe Ambrosia can kick in a few bucks or some software?)

creation of more user friendly editors which emphasize usability over editing everything (or perhaps a "teaching mode" in existing editors which filters out certain zones and gradually introduces them as the user gains more skills.

A "collaborative TC" in which a bunch of modestly experienced developers (IE: not still asking what graphics program to use for the gazillionth time) each build a small manageable unit onto a plug, such as one government. To some degree this was tried with the "delta-V" plug which as far as I know is defunct. (though I still have some of my work for it on my mac) The problem with delta-v was too many people and too ambitious of goals with out accountability. if each person is responcible for maybe 20 inhabited systems, 20 ships, and the accompanying descriptions etc.

"bets" placed on who will get their TC out first. people place some small yet symbolic chunk of money on the line. obviously there are flaws with this in terms of quality, accountability, etc

"online editor" which allows multiple people to update and demonstrate parts of a plug in more or less real time

a small tester for ships and planets, used to check the placement of descs and ship ballance. preferably it could be paused and ship statistics changed. I think this has been suggested before.

free prizes from Ambrosia for anyone to complete a usefull plug (this can take the form of software) this is different from the "contest" idea in that the prizes will not be finite but rather based on percieved quality only. (A pannel of judges drawn from experienced members of the community?)

I'm interested in everyone's input.

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-Bohemian Muskrat

Azratax2

1. I doubt ambrosia would spend money for this. They never had in the past.
2. The nature of the interests of plugin makers would propably make a plug making school feel like, well, school. Plug makers usually want to do thier own thing, not predefined limited tasks.
3. Openware TC's? Fine with me. If i ever get my TC to be releasable, i wont care if people make plugs for it.
4. Graphics is a real problem.
5. Even beginners propably wouldnt benefit from intentionally crippled editors. They just make life difficult.
6. Arnt many TC's collaberative?
7. Ummmmmm Betting on plugs? Please no.
8. online editor? hmm
9. The tester that would let one adjust things in real time would be a real b**** to program.
Let's try what Martin Turner reccomended, since he made 2 of the best plugs in the old days. He reccomeded that new plug devers play the good old plugs for EVC/O and learn from the masters. They dont need to be regged to use plugs, and they will supposadly run on emulated macs for the PC users.
-Az

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It is here. EVNEW Public Beta (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW(/url)
Stuffit is a piece of .sit.

Bohemian Muskrat

Well yeah, there are obvious problems with everything I've written. But it's much easier to point out problems with others ideas than it is to come up with new ones.

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-Bohemian Muskrat

orcaloverbri9

On OpenWare (the only idea that I think would ever come to fruition): A good idea, but there are a few kinks to work out. For instance, five different people/teams could release five very similar TCs. This could lead to serious arguing and accusations over "who ripped off who".

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The programmer's code of entomology: there's always another bug.
Windows users: stop asking for plugins. (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW/")Make one yourself.(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")Sephil Saga Website(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/search.html")Add-ons Search Engine(/url)

TheRedeemer

Some of these Ideas are nice. I would like to see some more tutorials out there, it would be a great help to people getting started. And especially some tutorial/s about Mission Bits as they can seem daunting to new developers.
Heck, there still daunting to me!

I don't think the Ambrosia would give money or games as rewards for any of this, but maybe the mods could grant Karma. ( I know it's not much, but we can't expect Ambrosia to shell out on things like this)

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain.

Azratax2

Quote

Originally posted by orcaloverbri9:
**On OpenWare (the only idea that I think would ever come to fruition): A good idea, but there are a few kinks to work out. For instance, five different people/teams could release five very similar TCs. This could lead to serious arguing and accusations over "who ripped off who".

**

My understanding of his suggestion was a TC being released as a setting, and people then being able to make addons. Not a bad idea - seeing as the stock scenario is so unfriendly to such addons. I dont see a connection between your statement and the idea of openware plugs as I understood it.
-Az

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It is here. EVNEW Public Beta (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW(/url)
Stuffit is a piece of .sit.

Bohemian Muskrat

The idea is to create a modest yet compelling universe but letting the EV community make the signifigant missions and storylines. There might be a lot of additional plugs made onto it which are of low quality but it is also possible that one or two gems might come about. At the very least it will act as inspiration to plug in designers to be exposed to a well crafted (but incomplete) plug. I had to sit and think about these ideas, they didn't just come to me all at once. What can you guys come up with? Work with me here... : )

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-Bohemian Muskrat

orcaloverbri9

Quote

Originally posted by Azratax2:
My understanding of his suggestion was a TC being released as a setting, and people then being able to make addons. Not a bad idea - seeing as the stock scenario is so unfriendly to such addons. I dont see a connection between your statement and the idea of openware plugs as I understood it.
-Az

Well, I was thinking of it as releasing the foundation upon which multiple people would create multiple TCs. You can see the issue there.

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The programmer's code of entomology: there's always another bug.
Windows users: stop asking for plugins. (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW/")Make one yourself.(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")Sephil Saga Website(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/search.html")Add-ons Search Engine(/url)

jdh545

On the graphics front, I would not really mind giving out some of my models, but since the programs I use tend to have proprietary formats, and are often incapable of exporting the models/scenes in their completion. This would not really be a problem if the modelers I use were common place. However, they are not. The few people who use Lightwave on the boards would probably would rather work on their own models than look at mine, and I my Maya models would probably have an even smaller audience. This idea may hold more water if some of the Strata users deign to share their models, but, as it is, I think I would only distribute my at the behest of individuals, rather than in a larger scale distribution.
Joe

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"Life is tough, but it's even tougher when you're stupid."
-John Wayne

Borb II

I use strata, and would be interested in sharing some of my modals, but same one would have to host them for me.

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A life, ohhhh, that a new plug-in right?
"Borb II of V.S.S Hellfire."

slouch

I dunno, I think too much of a compelling 'template' universe would be dependent on a preconceived storyline to be of any real use. It would have to be without any descriptions, missions, governments, dudes, fleets, crons, spobs, tech levels, etc. It would basically be just a map of systs with hyperlinks and placeholder graphics. Even those are best done with a story in mind.

But, if this route makes any sense, why not just take the stock Nova scenario and strip it of these things? Seems it would be much easier than creating all new graphics and a map from scratch.

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Avatar7

I think the idea of a predefined universe could work really well if you input the plug with several diferent planets and systems that are uninhabited without description but with certain things activated (like having only commodity exchange on one). Thin put a .txt file into some universal form of compresion (like .zip) so that even the Windows users can look at and use it. The text file would explain how to put in desc for the bar/spob for beginners and how to make govs or set govs for a specific planet. (it would be really funky if you had two spobs in the same system from two facitons that were at war :)) Then when someone downloaded it, it would be a predefined universe thats really not predefined (on a seperate note, also input into the zip file a .rez version of the plug so that Windows users dont have to convert it themselves)

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(Edit: spelling right would be really good :))

(This message has been edited by Avatar7 (edited 01-28-2004).)

Bohemian Muskrat

hmm... the stock nova scenario stripped of storylines is one possibility, but I was thinking of a smaller and simpler TC. such a plug wouldn't be made with out story lines in mind, for example I make a TC which centers around the conflict between a large government and the various seperatist movements with in it. I can have in a desc something about race A having diverging religious sects vying for power. I can even go as far as creating some missions for the various groups, enough to introduce them. But if I want to make it open to variation yet friendly to less involved editing, I don't plot the missions all the way through the destruction of the mining station outside of proxima, etc. Perhaps after a while various versions of the plug could be combined. Fundamentally what I'm experimenting with here is ways to make plug-in making more fun, accessable, and intuitive. One of the disadvantages of the growing complexity of the EV engine and the stock scenario (not to mention the best of the plugs) is that I think people feel compelled to create larger and larger projects, decreasing their rate of success.

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-Bohemian Muskrat

Dr. Trowel

Quote

Originally posted by Bohemian Muskrat:
**The idea is to create a modest yet compelling universe but letting the EV community make the signifigant missions and storylines. There might be a lot of additional plugs made onto it which are of low quality but it is also possible that one or two gems might come about. At the very least it will act as inspiration to plug in designers to be exposed to a well crafted (but incomplete) plug.

**

This is a more elaborate option than those that others have proposed here, and more bizarre....

A theme for a theme-less TC, initially small but with great potential for 3rd-party expansion, with a nod to Douglas Adams and the HHGTTG:

The Magrathean Proving Grounds

The story begins something like this. Our hero wakes up one morning to find him/herself in a universe that no longer makes sense. Looking down, s/he notices two tattoos, one on each arm. One reads "Property of Magrathea Planet Works," the other, "Copyright Megadodo Publications." Is one tattoo true, and the other false? As our hero explores the galaxy, it becomes very apparent that things are seriously disjointed -- planets, ships, technologies, and even peoples look and act ridiculously differently from one region of space to the next. The strangest systems may be those between the inhabited star clusters: Naboo fighters and X-Wings spew forth from Auroran carriers. Frogs fly, and WWII planes and tanks fly with them. Sailing ships battle Starfleet vessels and Mobile Suits, as Miranu freighters ply their routes unconcerned.

Is this universe some sort of giant catalog or sales lot -- and is anyone minding the store? Is it all an electronic simulation for testing or research purposes -- and who is at the controls? Is it all too, too real, the outcome perhaps of madness among the gods, or of some horrible Pan-Galactic Improbability Incident? Is our hero the human s/he thinks s/he is, or some sort of artificial sentient construct? No one s/he meets seems overly bothered by the state of affairs. Is there any point in worrying, or should our hero just take sides in a couple small wars, carry some trade goods to a few interesting marketplaces, get rich, and buy some really expensive drinks?

If the practicality issues could be worked out (including getting author permissions to modify some existing teaser plugs as well as figuring out how to keep future contributors from stepping on each others' toes), this kind of world-gone-mad scenario could be fun to build collaboratively, sort of like the "bar" webboard topics.

The "story" idea comes out of a persistently nebulous cloud of TC ideas that I've been kneading and reshaping in my head for years. I had been keeping it to myself in the hopes of springing it as a surprise in a completed project some day, but I don't know if that will ever happen. If it doesn't spark strong reactions now, I'll take it back underground and hope that some day I have more time to work on it....

Avatar7

Quote

Originally posted by Dr. Trowel:
**The "story" idea comes out of a persistently nebulous cloud of TC ideas that I've been kneading and reshaping in my head for years. I had been keeping it to myself in the hopes of springing it as a surprise in a completed project some day, but I don't know if that will ever happen. If it doesn't spark strong reactions now, I'll take it back underground and hope that some day I have more time to work on it....
**

That actually sounds like it could be a good TC. In fact a lot of people could build off of that idea and create some wild plugins where the Axis gets transported (work with me here) into the future and the Star Wars fighters fall through a multi dimentional portal to and find the Axis Powers ruling the Universe in an iron clad grip except for a few traders who live in one man suits and don't really understand whats going on anyway......-out of breath-..... Any way I guess what I;m trying to get at is that you right in that many things can happen from this theme-less TC.

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Bohemian Muskrat

what about creating a program which manufactures useable plugs from controlled inputs. Select 400 system, select three governments, set values for first gov at 20-45 systems, seccond at 50-65, third at 70-100. then you designate the governments of your ship graphics as well as ship type. every govt recieves a range of tech level planets (planet graphics also inputted) one could keep playing with this until one finds a combination which is interesting, and then sticks in all the other parts of a plug we expect...

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-Bohemian Muskrat

Guest_Wyrm_*

Hrmm.

A program that randomly creates reasonably balanced ship stats
might be feasible, but you'll have to write all the descs yourself.

Ditto for weapons, etc.

Bohemian Muskrat

Random map creation might also be interesting, if only because it creates a template which one can use to fill in the rest of the plug. Perhaps a "NGC" type name designation could be rigged up, or maybe selection from a list of names (actual system names?)

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-Bohemian Muskrat

SpacePirate

Additionally, something like Systematic would be slightly useful, but it would destroy all hope for creative universes. For those who don't know, Systematic would randomly generate a universe based on logical algorithms.

~ SpacePirate

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Fear the SpacePirate,
He made a (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/search.html")plug-in search page(/url)...
And he'll board your ship! -mrxak

Azratax2

shakes head at the random creator ideas Mabey one to just place random systems, but i think it would tend to promote lower quality plugs, not higher.

Wouldnt we want to do what ATMOS does with tailoring the hyperspace routes to look different depending on what area you are in? What about customizing the jump routes such that some systems have different economic position based not on position but on the fact that theres a better jump router for the major trade routes?
-Az

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It is here. EVNEW Public Beta (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW(/url)
Stuffit is a piece of .sit.

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