I think it would be an interesting thing for a TC to do something like this:
Based on the players behavior (esp in a number of minor bar missions and even how often they visit the bar) to get an idea of how seedy or respectiable the player is, and even how comfortable he/she would be in a spaceport bar....
This would effect mission availability - if the player's charachter was a well dressed respectable person, they might get a job with the Confedracy. The private shipping companies would have lower standards, but would still be wary of hiring someone who was a known scumbag who hung out with pirates and scum. On the other hand if the player did hang out with pirates and thugs, they might have the right contacts to get into smuggling or organized crime.
I am wondering what people's thoughts on this are? I think it would make the game more immersive, and more realistic. It would also make the game more roleplayingy - bar descs could depend on your "seedyness" - if you are a nice-guy the bar might talk about you getting a beer or wine and mention freighter captains talking about safe trade routes, while if you were a scumbag, you would be drinking whisky with some smugglers talking about that system-milita captain in Spica who keeps posting bouties on spice runners.

This is not like legal rating, since a successful criminal doesnt have warships of the Terran Confed beating on him/her when spotted (ie, it ain't illegal if ya don't get caught).
-Az

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Quote

Originally posted by Azratax2:
**I think it would be an interesting thing for a TC to do something like this:
Based on the players behavior (esp in a number of minor bar missions and even how often they visit the bar) to get an idea of how seedy or respectiable the player is, and even how comfortable he/she would be in a spaceport bar....
This would effect mission availability - if the player's charachter was a well dressed respectable person, they might get a job with the Confedracy. The private shipping companies would have lower standards, but would still be wary of hiring someone who was a known scumbag who hung out with pirates and scum. On the other hand if the player did hang out with pirates and thugs, they might have the right contacts to get into smuggling or organized crime.
I am wondering what people's thoughts on this are? I think it would make the game more immersive, and more realistic. It would also make the game more roleplayingy - bar descs could depend on your "seedyness" - if you are a nice-guy the bar might talk about you getting a beer or wine and mention freighter captains talking about safe trade routes, while if you were a scumbag, you would be drinking whisky with some smugglers talking about that system-milita captain in Spica who keeps posting bouties on spice runners.

This is not like legal rating, since a successful criminal doesnt have warships of the Terran Confed beating on him/her when spotted (ie, it ain't illegal if ya don't get caught).
-Az**

I'm gonna beat Masamune to this one. Hehe.

SS actually does this in a bunch of categories. Lemme check...

Alright, here's a list of what we're incorporating:
- Hand to hand combat skills
- Small arms/marksmanship skills
- Computer hacking skills
- Piloting skills
- Drug addiction
- A bunch of personality stuff

So, if you, say, had the personality traight of money obsessed, the texts would put in things like "how much do I get out of it?" Or, if you had a high piloting rating, you would be more trusted with missions that involve...good piloting skills...to complete.

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Quote

Originally posted by orcaloverbri9:
**I'm gonna beat Masamune to this one. Hehe.

SS actually does this in a bunch of categories. Lemme check...

Alright, here's a list of what we're incorporating:
- Hand to hand combat skills
- Small arms/marksmanship skills
- Computer hacking skills
- Piloting skills
- Drug addiction
- A bunch of personality stuff

So, if you, say, had the personality traight of money obsessed, the texts would put in things like "how much do I get out of it?" Or, if you had a high piloting rating, you would be more trusted with missions that involve...good piloting skills...to complete.

**

Gee thanks. I was kinda looking for something like... ideas on how to implement it... people saying what they thought of the idea. Thanks for telling me that my great idea has already been done. I know sephil saga has already done it just because I came up with it and it sounded like a good idea. Everything i come up with has already been taken by you people. It's depressing.
Bah
Anyone want to say anything nice or helpful?
-Az, who was happy a few minutes ago.

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Doing the bar descs wouldn't be very hard. If you set it up such that the different possible ratings set the mutually exclusive bits b1, b2, b3, etc., then the desc would be {b1 "text1"}{b2 "text2"}{b3 "text3"}..., and descs have no length limit. It sounds like a good idea. Maybe you could buy an outf like "Expensive business suit" or something.

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I know how you feel, Azterax. SS uses so many darn ideas that I get turned off from doing anything but your average TC, and the few features I plan that I might use I keep my trap shut about.

Still, your idea, for which you should get some credit (after all, you came up with it by yourself), sounds quite interesting. It could go so far as you couldn't land on certian ports, not because you did anything wrong, but because of your social class...

On a side note, did your username come from an old Mac OS game (an asteroids remake) I fondly remember playing?

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Quote

Originally posted by Aprosenf:
**Doing the bar descs wouldn't be very hard. If you set it up such that the different possible ratings set the mutually exclusive bits b1, b2, b3, etc., then the desc would be {b1 "text1"}{b2 "text2"}{b3 "text3"}..., and descs have no length limit. It sounds like a good idea. Maybe you could buy an outf like "Expensive business suit" or something.

**

I do something like that in SFA with bar and planet descriptions to help mark the passage of time.

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Well, Az, I'll try to reassure you :). I think it's a great idea. Just because we have a variant of it, doesn't mean you didn't come up with it, since nobody knows most of the stuff we're doing.

As far as implementation goes, you could do something like I did with my "Karma" government- use a government that doesn't appear. Your legal rating with them keeps track of your "seediness". Have an invisible mission that goes off every time you enter a bar, which adds 1 (or whatever you want) to your rating with the seediness government. Next, have another set of invisible missions which appear based on your rating with "seediness", that actually set useable bits. Then, in your bar/mission descriptions, you can use {bxxx "a" "b"} to change things up based on how bar-friendly your character is. Very cool- but a lot of writing.

For the record, whenever I chime up and say "SS does this already", it's not meant to be discouraging to everybody else! It's meant to be "it's a great idea, here's one way of doing it/it's possible to do". I happen to be throwing everything and the kitchen sink at SS, and given my grasp of the engine, that's alot.

In any case, SS doesn't really have anything exactly the same as this- for the most part your character traits are determined when you start, and by completing certain missions. So go for it! Add it in! Just don't expect me not to do likewise!

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~Charlie
Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)

Hypothetical Solution:
Nova has 10,000 ncb's to work with. If you're replacing the stock Nova scenario, you set aside, say, 50 bits as a rating scale, 2 more as "Good" and "Evil" markers when certain threshold values on the scale are crossed, another 2 as "Increment Goodness Up" and "Increment Goodness Down," and...

Um... What was the maximum number of cröns again? It isn't mentioned in the resource guide, but stock Nova seems to use over 700 of them.

If you don't like the touchy nature of cröns, you could use invisible, auto-aborting missions.

Or, some combination of both. Either could be used to test when to adjust the "scale," and then do so; missions could also affect goverment ratings.

This is off of the top of my head, so it will need some polishing before it can be used.

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Quote

Originally posted by Masamune:
**...like I did with my "Karma" government- use a government that doesn't appear. Your legal rating with them keeps track of your "seediness".
**

This is such a good idea! I was just thinking "why doesn't EVN support custom counters similar to legal ratings?" using different governments 'called' "manner", "skill" a.s.o gives a lot of possibilities.

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You're going to love this, Az... but I've already stolen your idea...

Since SS doesn't have any normal random cargo missions, your idea gave me a flash of inspiration (that and Shadowrun the RPG). I can make random cargo shadowruns (illegal cargo). Now, where you come in- I'm going to keep track of your shadiness rating from doing these runs.

Here's what I'm doing in case anybody else wants to use the idea:
You can meet multiple Mr. Johnsons in the game. Hooking up with and or establishing a connection with them is a mission (string) in and of itself. However, once you've established a relationship with a Mr. J, all of them will give you the same set of cargo missions- only you use {bxxx "A" "B"} to control what the offering text looks like. So if "Sarah" is your Mr. J, she flirts with you and offers a "generic" mission, but if "Bruno" is your contact, he's gruff and to the point. In the end, the mission is simply to get G tons of H to J by K, and avoid some government's scans/pirates/whatever. Completing these missions raises your shadiness, but doesn't affect your standing with any government (it's not illegal if you don't get caught). Get sufficiently shady, and you can possibly open up different adventures.

Another idea I did that anybody can use: Karma
Same thing, use a government that does nothing but track a rating. You can get good Karma from missions like "Rescue the Orphans", or bad Karma from "Torch the Orphans". Currently, I have a sally struthers-ish mission setup for the Mercurian Childrens Fund. For a small daily donation, you get monthly Karma boosts. It takes 2 missions, 1 cron, and a rank. Many options available.

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~Charlie
Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by Azratax2:
**Gee thanks. I was kinda looking for something like... ideas on how to implement it... people saying what they thought of the idea. Thanks for telling me that my great idea has already been done. I know sephil saga has already done it just because I came up with it and it sounded like a good idea. Everything i come up with has already been taken by you people. It's depressing.
Bah
Anyone want to say anything nice or helpful?
-Az, who was happy a few minutes ago. **

Sorry, didn't mean to upset you. My intention was to give an example of an already existing implementation of your idea.

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Hmmm. Sorry bout my rant. For some reason I was in a particularly fragile mood when i posted that. I actually dont think it would have bothered me if it was Masamune who posted talking about how he did it, and it wouldnt have bothered me as much any other time. The way Orca put it i thought that my whole idea had been used almost exactly before i thought of it. Felt like everything i came up with has already been done the same by SS. Actually, it sounds like what Orca said isnt atall like what i am thinking of - it looks like what he was talking about are traits that either you have or dont have - while i was talking about a continum between "Respectable" and "scumbag"

Its good to know SS doesnt do the exact same thing, and about Masamune's new idea, you're right, i do love that you are doing that - I dont mind when people take my ideas to use themselves - just as long as they dont take my idea before i come up with it

Phyvo: Never heard of that game. I dont quite know why i came up with this name - but i use it everywhere.

On this topic, Masamune, your idea of using legal records as counters is brilliant, but i dont think it will work. To quote the Bible "AvailRecord: What your legal record in this system must be for this mission to become available", emphasis mine.
How would you use this legal-record-counter?
-Az

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(This message has been edited by Azratax2 (edited 01-07-2004).)

(This message has been edited by Azratax2 (edited 01-07-2004).)

Way10k uses something similar to Masamune's karma idea but not to a very large extent yet. I may implement it more as I get closer to finishing. Basically I just grossly over use the legal rating. Mission availablity is based on your status. If you're tempted to do random missions that are immoral your rating will drop. Do what is good and right and it'll go up letting you continue the string. Simple, but hey, so am I

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You're right... it's a huge problem. I went back and double checked myself. It doesn't work at all because of just that problem... for some reason I was thinking you could specify WHAT government you had to have a rating with, not "this system". Man, that's a bummer :frown:

But there are always options. Jonathan just posted a new counter system that might work wonders for you- and me.

Fortunately (for me at least) Karma still works for SS, because at the end of the game there will be a planet like S7even, that is run by Karma. Basically, your karma will determine whether you go to heaven (or just get a good ending) or hell (a bad ending). But the shadiness idea wouldn't work at all. Well, there goes my "brilliance"- turns out I'm just talking out my ass.

Well, to make yourself (and me) feel better, go figure out how to set up the spobs in my Spob Challenge thread.

Phyvo: do you mean Asterax? I think I still have that on my HD somewhere. That game rocked. Safe shots, triple stream, and burst shots... oh yeah. Serious firepower.

Edit: I think I have another solution, after reading Jonathan's counter system again. Seems like it can only read forward, so it wouldn't work great for a spectrum system like what you want- presumeably, you can get more or less shady. How about this (get ready for it): invisible "reputation" outfits. When you do something good, grant one, and when you do something bad, delete one (Say you start with 10 and that's neutral). Now, the rest I haven't totally worked out, but basically it works thus: Use a counter system (like Jonathans), which every day, or week, or however long it takes to do it's work in the background, counts up how many respectability tokens you have, and sets various bits along the way? Like I said, I haven't totally figured it out yet, but I think that could be made to work.

Now you have my wheels spinning... seems like there's a better way... if there is, I'll find it. If you can simplify it down to a spectrum of three values (shady, neutral, law-abiding), I think there's probably some simplifications you can use... but it's tricky.... I'll get back to you on this....

Hmm... this just got a whole lot tougher. Darn MCB... this is his fault.

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(This message has been edited by Masamune (edited 01-07-2004).)

(This message has been edited by Masamune (edited 01-07-2004).)

Quote

Originally posted by Masamune:
But there are always options. Jonathan just posted a new counter system that might work wonders for you- and me.

One nice advantage of my system is that you can actually call the counter outfit 'Karma', 'Shadiness', or whatever and stick it in the rank section so the player can check their rating. Of course, it would also be possible to tag on some code to the ncb counter to do that, but it would east more resources then.

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Quote

Originally posted by Masamune:
**Phyvo: do you mean Asterax? I think I still have that on my HD somewhere. That game rocked. Safe shots, triple stream, and burst shots... oh yeah. Serious firepower.
**

Yeah. It's just that Azratax looked like Asterax a lot, and I became mixed up. Heheh.

One time the game bugged while my and my bro were playing, and crystals flew everywhere. It was ages before we could even collide with anything, and we (after dying a few times) managed to get all 2 billion + crystals that were flying around. Max upgrades were really sick...

Quote

Originally posted by Jonathan Boyd:
**One nice advantage of my system is that you can actually call the counter outfit 'Karma', 'Shadiness', or whatever and stick it in the rank section so the player can check their rating. Of course, it would also be possible to tag on some code to the ncb counter to do that, but it would east more resources then.
**

Could you also stick different levels of 'Karma' and 'Shadiness'? I would think that you could somehow (Maybe with missions) check the shadiness level of someone, but I can't figure out how...

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Quote

Originally posted by Masamune:
**You're right... it's a huge problem. I went back and double checked myself. It doesn't work at all because of just that problem... for some reason I was thinking you could specify WHAT government you had to have a rating with, not "this system". Man, that's a bummer:frown:

But there are always options. Jonathan just posted a new counter system that might work wonders for you- and me.

Hmm... this just got a whole lot tougher. Darn MCB... this is his fault.

**

I think the right way for my respectability system to be run is with an Aranor-Regulus NCB Counter - I cant see a way to make a Boyd Outfit Counter work. ARNCs are actually really powerful - they give great control over when something can and can not be activated.

I did just discover a problem caused by this inability to use legal ratings as much as we would like. You cant have a situation where, say, if you attack merchant ships belonging to Joe-bob's merchant co, he will send (misn driven) bounty hunters to take you down. Got any ideas on how to implement this?
I can imagine a bounty-hunter like player at the BBS "150,000 credit bounty" Ooh, whats this? gets some details Oh crap! Thats me! notices everyone around him holding blasters pointed at him
-Az

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Quote

Originally posted by Azratax2:
I think the right way for my respectability system to be run is with an Aranor-Regulus NCB Counter - I cant see a way to make a Boyd Outfit Counter work. ARNCs are actually really powerful - they give great control over when something can and can not be activated.

I think you have more control over BORCs than ARNCs because you can check for >, >=, =, <= and < with the simple addition of a cron or two. You can only get that to work with ARNCs if you only increment/decrement the counter by a maximum of 1 per day and even then, you're eating up a lot of bits. The one thing you can't do with a BORC is use negative numbers, but if you move your neutrality rating from 0 to sometihng like 100, then that problem is solved.

What is it you need to do with an ARNC, that you don't think a BORC could do? Would be nice to see what flaws I've failed to spot. Alternatively, I might be able to convince you that there is A Better way :^)

Quote

I did just discover a problem caused by this inability to use legal ratings as much as we would like. You cant have a situation where, say, if you attack merchant ships belonging to Joe-bob's merchant co, he will send (misn driven) bounty hunters to take you down. Got any ideas on how to implement this?
I can imagine a bounty-hunter like player at the BBS "150,000 credit bounty" Ooh, whats this? gets some details Oh crap! Thats me! notices everyone around him holding blasters pointed at him

Have a rank with Joe-Bob's gov that contributes A1. When you fire on his ships, you lose the rank.
Have 3 crons:
1st sets b1.
2nd runs only if A1 is contributed and clears b1.
3rd runs if b1 is set and starts the bounty hunter mission.

You could cut it to 2 crons if you're happy for the mission to start only when you land.

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(This message has been edited by Jonathan Boyd (edited 01-07-2004).)

Well, I may as well post this now, I probably will never use it...

This is an ongoing work in progress, so please bear with any shortcomings. It should also be noted that this uses another method of mine to display "randomized text", making generic missions slightly more varied. Basically this was an invisible mission when landing that uses R( misn2, misn3), where mission 2 sets either bit 1 or 2, and mission 3 sets either bit 3 or 4. Then, use the bit operator in the descriptions to randomize the text.

---

Law enforcement:

• Person resource available in every major system.

• • Hail quote: "<PN>, you have been found guilty of crimes against the government of xxx. Respond immediately, or suffer the ultimate price."
• • Hail it for the mission, always hostile, special "Law Enforcement" gov.
• • It is only visible if you are minor offender or above. This will be set with an invisible mission with the Record field. This mission will set a bit to control which person is shown. The mission will be available at any stellar, 100% of the time.
• • Accepting mission enacts fine, resets status, sets the convicted bit, remove any of the bits set to control the display of the persons, increases the date by the jail time, and transports the player to a Law Enforcement facility. It will also create a special ship to observe in the Law Enforcement facility, which will start a mission explaining how much time had occurred, how many credits were taken, and the like. If the player has any illegal outfits, they will be removed.
• • Separate persons may be used for different statuses.
• • • If possible, separate persons for different government status.
• • • Regardless, separate persons will be used in cases of "Resisting arrest", "Assaulting an officer", "Repeat offender", etc.

• Random Mission in stellars 1 - Security Patrols:

• • If you have a poor rating, a similar mission may be activated.
• • Will give you the option to flee, or to turn yourself in.
• • Fleeing will decrease your rating, but at no monetary cost.
• • Fleeing will activate a special ship to attack player.
• • Fleeing will set a "Resist arrest" bit, which will increase your fine, and go on your "Record".

• Random Mission in stellars 2 - Bribery:

• • After bribing port security and landing, a mission may appear.
• • The mission will be a security official demanding extra expenses, or he/she will call for backup.
• • You may pay additional credits, or flee (force player from stellar)
• • Fleeing may set an "Assaulting officer" bit or a "Resisting arrest" bit.
• • Fleeing will activate a special ship to attack player.

• For minor crimes (boarding, missions), there will be minor punishments, and a "Convicted for minor crimes" bit will be set, and placed on their "record".

• For major crimes (destruction, disabling, shooting, missions), there will be a more severe punishment and a "Convicted for major crimes" bit will be set.

• Crime bits will prevent the player from purchasing certain items, entering certain strings (working for the government, some companies), and may allow other strings (outlaws).

• Crime bits will allow "Repeat offender" bits, which will create more severe punishments.

• Convictions and the player's record will be listed in the Rank screen.

• Doing certain missions for the government could have your record cleared. (Pardons)

---

This could easily be modified to do other things aside from keeping track of a permanent record, it could also be applied to "good samaritan" missions and the like. I originally planned on making various aspects of the game's text change depending on the player's choices- which mission types they accept, where they hang out, who they usually attack... Also, your responses to certain missions early in the game would determine your Personality, which would modify how you reply to people, what you see in bars/spaceports, and affects what missions may be available. Personality types would be like "Cynical", "Happy-go-lucky", "Completely (url="http://"http://www.evula.com")EV(/url)il", and the like. It would have a really cool effect, but it would need to be planned and implemented well before you get very far into plugin development.

I hope someone makes use of that...
~ SpacePirate

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(This message has been edited by SpacePirate (edited 01-07-2004).)

(This message has been edited by SpacePirate (edited 01-07-2004).)

Quote

Originally posted by SpacePirate:
**Well, I may as well post this now, I probably will never use it...
<snip>
**

Some very nice idea in there. If I was writing a TC, I'd be interesting, but I'm not, so I'll just point and go 'oooooohhhhhhh' :^)

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