I am getting a bit frustrated. I bought this game in December and was happy to wait until the January release of the full game (the demo took up the interim and was lots of fun).

However, I feel that I have paid to be a beta tester. The update is long overdue.

I think Ferazel is a very well-crafted (artistically) and beautiful game, but it was certainly released prematurely. And, as far as I can tell, most of the bugs to be fixed in the coming update have been found by the people who have posted to the Ambrosia Ferazel web board - isn't this what beta testing is all about? Why was the external 1.0.3 beta released to the same group who didn't find these bugs to begin with? If the update is awaiting the response from the original beta testers, have you considered having the posters to this board do the beta testing of any updates?

Cathy

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I am curious how beta testers are chosen. I would LOVE to be a beta tester for Ambrosia games -- they have been keeping me glued to my monitor since Maelstrom! I've played most of them to death more than once, and have instructed my husband that we must ALWAYS have a Mac so that I can play Ambrosia games!

Devotedly,

Nif

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Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.

I agree! I have been a died-in-the-wool Ambrosia game player ever since I found Chiral, years ago. I, too, am now just waiting for the upgrade to Ferazel's Wand. I basically can't go anywhere with the game, because I need the stuff I can't get, and I'm not willing to start over again, just to pass the time. Since I haven't posted for over a week, and the last I heard, the problems had all been found (as you said, Cathy, I think WE found most of them), I rather thought that when I logged on tonight, I MIGHT find that the upgrade had been released, even though I hadn't heard about it yet. Not so, of course (sigh).

Here's another thought: how about those who have faithfully played through and posted here since we at least got our CDs, get somewhat of a discount on the NEXT Ambrosia game?

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I completely agree with the sentiment expressed above (Well said, cats!) and I've had my share of frustration too.

Actually, I'm getting serious deja vu, as I was an early adopter/register for Cythera. It was (and still is) a great Ultima-esque game, but too much like Ferazel, the release version was seriously plagued with major bugs and significant "issues."

While playing the game through, I wrote Glenn Andreas and Andrew Welch almost daily or every other day with bugs and typo/grammar errors. Most finally ended up corrected in future versions but I got little in the way of feedback.

Andrew did at one point tell me that he felt the game had been released prematurely. Sounds very much like something he said in a thread on this board... :frown:

HINT, HINT Ambrosia!

I submit that your current methods of beta testing and deciding when to release a game are majorly "broken." If the beta testers aren't responding, find new ones. Get people who can really beat the heck out of the game. I'm stunned by the number of blatant, impossible-to-miss bugs that somehow escaped the beta testers in the release version.

I've emailed a raft of bugs to Ben since I got the full version, only some of which I posted here. No acknowledgements - I think Ben may be filtering my email.

(This message has been edited by gundlach (edited 03-05-2000).)

In reference to your inquiry about how beta testers are chosen, Nif:

Basically, when a new game is ready for testing the people at Ambrosia open up to the outside. You send them an e-mail with your computer specs and it all goes into a big pool. The Ambrosians ( ) then pick people in order to get a broad array of computer types to test the game on. If you get picked they send you a non-disclosure agreement for you to sign (you know, so you don't give the betas away and stuff like that) and if they get that agreement back, you are now a beta tester. You get access to an e-mail address to post comments and bug reports to all the testers and the people involved in the making of the game.

At least that's my take on how it's done based on two things. Just general assumptions on how beta testers are selected, and the fact that I was a beta tester for Slithereens

If you really want to be a tester, keep checking back at the Upcoming section of the Ambrosia website. The beta testing selection for Deimos Rising is supposed to start soon. If you're lucky, maybe you'll be able to be a tester for it (I know I'm going to try)

If I've given out some info I shouldn't have, I apologize and I'll change/delete any info of such type.

Hope that answers your question!

By the way, the beta process isn't really 'broken'. It was fine for Slithereens and went really smoothly, I just think that there were a few problems with the Ferazel's Wand testers themselves (or something to that effect)

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-- Jeff

(This message has been edited by Merciless (edited 03-05-2000).)

Quote

Merciless wrote:
**
If you really want to be a tester, keep checking back at the Upcoming section of the Ambrosia website. The beta testing selection for Deimos Rising is supposed to start soon. If you're lucky, maybe you'll be able to be a tester for it (I know I'm going to try)

**

Thanks for that info! I would love to try to be a beta tester for Deimos Rising -- I absolutely loved Mars Rising! I played it so much during my pregnancy that whenever I play it now my daughter can hear the music from anywhere in the house and start crying -- she's 2 now, and obviously not as big a fan as I am! :rolleyes:

Thanks again for the info!

Nif

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Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.

I was a beta tester for Cythera and Ferazel's Wand...here's my POV:

During Cythera, it was like this: after twelve betas (I think), Andrew told us all: it was leaving beta the end of August, whether it was ready or not. It looked OK at the time, but obviously, you guys test harder than most of us did.

Cythera was buggy from the start. Remind me to tell you the ancient story of the walking, magic-casting half-beds some time. Or the talking furniture of Odemia. Hehehe.

Ferazel was less buggy from the start, so there should be less issues here. Note the word "should"...

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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room!"
-Dr. Strangelove
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Will Oram

Oh, oh, tell us the story of the magic-casting half-beds!!! Please?

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I think one beta tester (or maybe Glenn) also described characters turning into flatbreads at some point in Cythera development... :rolleyes:

As far as beta testers go, you want the nit-picky, annoying ones, not the ones who tell you what you want to hear (the game/app is fine).

Does Ambrosia give detailed directions on beta testing? It really should be much more than just playing the game through. Actively trying to make the program crash, trying wacko combinations of things, and scrutinizing every last tiny detail are important.

In addition, comparing beta tests for a very large and complex game like Ferazel (or maybe Cythera) to a smaller action title like Slithereens is comparing apples and oranges, IMO. With a much greater amount of complexity, the beta test cycle for Ferazel should be much longer and probably involve more testers.

I'd apply to beta test for Deimos Rising, but I think I've already used up whatever good karma I had with Ambrosia...

Quote

MissNif wrote:
**I am curious how beta testers are chosen. I would LOVE to be a beta tester for Ambrosia games -- they have been keeping me glued to my monitor since Maelstrom! I've played most of them to death more than once, and have instructed my husband that we must ALWAYS have a Mac so that I can play Ambrosia games!

Devotedly,

Nif

**

Well, I became a beta tester for Hera (Ares editor) by relpying to a post on the board by andrew. Go to (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/news/upcoming")http://www.ambrosias...m/news/upcoming(/url) to see if any beta spots are available (None are right now).

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Think Different.

-Admiral Dennis
(url="http://"mailto:admiraldennis@mac.com")mailto:admiraldennis@mac.com(/url)admiraldennis@mac.com

Quote

gundlach wrote:
In addition, comparing beta tests for a very large and complex game like Ferazel (or maybe Cythera) to a smaller action title like Slithereens is comparing apples and oranges, IMO. With a much greater amount of complexity, the beta test cycle for Ferazel should be much longer and probably involve more testers.

Oh I agree completely. Slithereens was a very simple game compared to Ferazel's Wand. I wasn't really surprised when I heard on a gaming site that FW had been in beta for over a year.

The thing is, I always thought that the whole point of beta testing was to put the program through it's paces...not just play it. That's what I did with Slithereens and I found a lot of bugs other people didn't (like how the game would freeze if you checked the About Box while you had a paused game in the background)

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-- Jeff

Sorry if my post sounded like it was directed at you Jeff. I was just ruminating on Ambrosia's beta testing in general from my POV... It sounds like you did a fine job beta'ing Slithereens.

I hope that Ambrosia will take the (rough and unpleasant) lessons from Cythera and Ferazel and make some positive changes selecting beta testers and in determining when something is ready for release. I think that's what everyone here is saying. It's a shame when really great products get a "black eye" from too many bugs.

I'd better stop now before I provoke the wrath of el presidente or Ben.

As it is, Ben hasn't fixed my saved game file yet... Punishment?

The only thing I can say is that the game was released before it was ready. Cythera and Ferazel are both considerably more complex than our previous releases. They were bound to have issues not found during testing, but that said, we should have done a better job.
Our tests are open tests. When a game is ready for beta, we ask for testers in the Upcoming section of our site. Then the test is filled first come, first served. That includes first to send in system info and signed beta agreements. We've been very lucky in getting many thorough and dedicated testers. Indeed, many of the testers have come back for more, and become an important part of the development of many projects.
We are discussing different approaches to testing for future releases, though we'll still run our own tests, and they'll still be open to the public.
And finally, a note of thanks, the players who have posted to these boards have been integral in finding most of the bugs that have been reported. We appreciate your input, help and patience. Remember, finding and confirming a bug and then squashing that bug are two different things. Ben has been working here at the office round the clock. We're testing the update, and hope to have a release soon.

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David Dunham / tech support / Ambrosia Software, Inc.

Quote

Rilla wrote:
**Oh, oh, tell us the story of the magic-casting half-beds!!! Please?:p
**

Hehe...gladly.

Once upon a time (beta 2, maybe), there existed an evil force, more evil than Pelagon, more evil than Pokemon, more evil than anything in Cythera. It was called the magic-casting sleeping half-bed.

I was walking around at night (always a bad thing to do, mind you), and caught sight of one in an Odemian home. It was a half bed. Beds take up two tiles, normally; this one took up one, so the other half was cut off. It paced back and forth in its room; there appeared to be a half man sleeping in it. I attempted to converse with the being; it was asleep, or so I was told. Still, this did not keep it from being hostile to me; as I walked in the room, it cast various spells on me. In fact, that bed downright killed me.

Over time, this mysterious creature began reproducing (asexually, probably, since there was only one to be found), and these organisms were soon found everywhere. Beta 2 was not a safe haven, obviously.

And that, my friends, is the story.

Next time: inanimate objects with souls of Odemian guards trapped within!

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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room!"
-Dr. Strangelove
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Will Oram

(This message has been edited by spamguy (edited 03-07-2000).)

I just have a quick question for anyone who reads this that was/is a tester for Ferazel's Wand. How did you guys miss so many major bugs? The wrong spell that stopped you from finishing a level (the Ice Wall issue), the spells that were missing altogether, etc. I mean, these are major things that apparently everyone who comes to this board found during the course of just playing the game noramlly, whereas testers are usually supposed to rigorously play through the game looking for things that go wrong.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the testers really goofed on this one.

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-- Jeff

Thanks for giving us your POV and an update, David!

My suggestion for future beta testing is to have a group of testers with whom you have obtained good results and keep using them. Ask people who have submitted reproducible bugs with detailed info to join the testing (or keep the names on file of people who have been good bug-hunters and volunteered to beta test) if you need more people. The idea here is to make most of your testing team people who have already displayed some ability.

Then, if you have spots left over, do a first come, first served selection or lottery from "unknowns."

I'm volunteering here and now to beta test the Ferazel sequel or any other platform type game Ben does. If Harry and Ferazel are any measure, I'm a big fan of Ben Spees' work.

So, since I'm asking to be part of the beta test this way, may I also request you use these boards as your first method for finding beta testers, then use open call second?

Thanks so much,

lisette@sweetness.com

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"Life is like a chocolate chip cookie."
-Snoopy