Who are the good guys?
Poll: Who do you think? (38 member(s) have cast votes)
Who do you think?
Confeds
(16 votes [42.11%])
Percentage of vote: 42.11%
Rebels
(22 votes [57.89%])
Percentage of vote: 57.89%
I personaly vote for Rebels, based partly off the opening text in EV:C, and partly off the fact that in EV games, the Rebels are always the good guys.
They clearly would not "always be good guys", seeing as they are actually quite evil in Escape Velocity.
Based on the Escape Velocity manual, also an official source of information, it is obvious that the esteemed Captain Scumdog didn't think the Rebels were the good guys-and seeing as this guy is an Indie at the time, plus about to die, well, you can add it up for yourself.
However, it is true that he didn't give them the screen time they deserve-he was too nice to mention their countless crimes, including support for piracy and rampant destruction of civilian goods in Luxury Liners.
-Bob
He was a Confederate pilot, and did most of his trading in the core worlds, where he would hear a lot of Confederate propaganda. Also, the intro text says the Confeds became corrupt, and began a tyranical rule over the core worlds.
Note, readers, how he attempts to dismiss one bit of documentation while attacking with the other.
The only significant difference between the intro text and the manual is that the person in the manual is credited.
Scumdog's activities-how he got his name, even-doesn't particularly sound like the actions of a Confed devotee, taking the law into his hands and bribing officials-besides, what's Confed propaganda? "Join us against the evil Rebellion!"? Nothing the Rebels don't say. If you can pull out "Confed propaganda" from those lines, I must wonder what the Rebels are up to.
-Bob
You know §torm, you really should have been a politician. I can pull at least a little propaganda out of that. It calls the Rebels evil. I view that as at least a minor form of propaganda. I know the Rebels do it too, but you asked me how I saw propaganda in that, so I told you. Also, I have always viewed the intro text as a short blurb by the authors to tell you what the universe is like out there.
The Confederation are clearly the 'good guys', unless you're working from a definition of 'good guys' which involves randomly killing civilians and supporting the spread of piracy. The introductory text is certainly against them, but the interesting thing is that none of the grievances mentioned in it actually appear for you to see in the game itself, while it in turn makes no mention of the rebellion's questionable tactics, leaving it open to huge questions of bias; Scumdog at least tells you his background.
Ace Rimmer said:
...in EV games, the Rebels are always the good guys.
On what are you basing this? As you've seen here, those of the first game aren't in the clear, and it would be hard to parlay EV Override 's renegades into the role of 'good guys'. EV Nova 's rebels are fighting against a clearly evil government, but that doesn't necessarily give them clean hands - the game itself raises some disturbing questions about the real motives of the rebel leaders.
The Human Renegades can hardly be called Rebels. In Override, if anything, the Humans are rebelling against enslavement by the Voinians.
I must agree in the point of David Arthur's post, which i was just saying the same to someone over AIM.
Just because the one isn't exactly a gem, doesn't mean the other is any better. This is almost like a vote between Democrats, and Republicans.
To Diablo with them both. Vote Independent!
Ever play New Horizons? The rebels may be idealistic and kind now, but there is a Total Rebel Domination Factor in the future.
Yay! Arguments!
I would first like to state my position with the Rebellion.
The Confederates were the good guys originally. They fought off the attacking Alien Race and saved humanity. They allowed their heroism and fame to go to their head, and they oppressed all those who were not Confederates.
Consul Bob, on Nov 1 2005, 10:27 AM, said:
They clearly would not "always be good guys", seeing as they are actually quite evil in Escape Velocity.
Based on the Escape Velocity manual, also an official source of information, it is obvious that the esteemed Captain Scumdog didn't think the Rebels were the good guys-and seeing as this guy is an Indie at the time, plus about to die, well, you can add it up for yourself.
However, it is true that he didn't give them the screen time they deserve-he was too nice to mention their countless crimes, including support for piracy and rampant destruction of civilian goods in Luxury Liners.
-Bob
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David Arthur, on Nov 1 2005, 05:44 PM, said:
The Confederation are clearly the 'good guys', unless you're working from a definition of 'good guys' which involves randomly killing civilians and supporting the spread of piracy. The introductory text is certainly against them, but the interesting thing is that none of the grievances mentioned in it actually appear for you to see in the game itself, while it in turn makes no mention of the rebellion's questionable tactics, leaving it open to huge questions of bias; Scumdog at least tells you his background.
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Good points, but the non-Confederates had no choice but to rebel. I can't imagine they could live happily in a life of oppression. The actions of the Rebels were in self-defence. Their reason for piracy and attacking Luxury Liners? Simple, the Confederates have quite an advantage over the Rebels. The Rebels need to take any opportunity they can reach. Also, remember to consider the cargo of the liners. It is not always Luxury goods, you know. It was only labeled "civilian goods".
As far as other piracy goes, at least the Rebels fight against the Pirates. I seem to remember a mission string for the Rebels in which the Confederates had the Pirates do some dirty work for them (It might have been a plug though. T'was a long, long time ago).
On a final note for the Confederacy, I think with Matt Burch naming them as the "Confederacy" purposely gave them a negative connotation because it is the name of the Southern army in the American Civil War.
To qualify the argument, a perspective on 'good guys' really depends on your side in the war. Do you think the South thought of themselves as the 'bad guys' in the American Civil War? Both sides of this war believe they have a nobel cause:
- The Rebellion wants to stop Confederate oppression.
- The Confederacy wants to destroy the Rebellion (It's a good cause for them).
One note, for the night-no essay, yet.
The Confeds aren't called the "Confederacy", but rather the Confederation.
-Bob
/me shoots Consul Bob with the Point of View gun.
Rebels, because the Confederation is making a horrible mess of things. And their ships are slow.
UE Admiral said:
In Override, if anything, the Humans are rebelling against enslavement by the Voinians.
...but the humans never were enslaved by the Voinians. They're fighting a defensive war against alien aggressors, certainly, but the only people in EV Override who could be called rebels in any way are the renegades. I'm not claiming that they were a political rebellion in any meaningful way, let alone that they have a justifiable cause - I was just reacting to the suggestion that the rebels are 'always' good guys.
And now, on to the arguments (many of which seem quite familiar - it would save me a good deal of typing if a few people would search through my old posts on this board 
Destroyer E said:
They allowed their heroism and fame to go to their head, and they oppressed all those who were not Confederates.
...er, but the people who claim to be oppressed were Confederates - otherwise, going to war with the Confederation wouldn't constitute a rebellion.
And you haven't given any reason why we should accept their claims of ill-treatment, given that they go against all the evidence that's actually present in the game for you to see with your own eyes.
Destroyer E said:
Their reason for piracy and attacking Luxury Liners? Simple, the Confederates have quite an advantage over the Rebels. The Rebels need to take any opportunity they can reach. Also, remember to consider the cargo of the liners. It is not always Luxury goods, you know. It was only labeled "civilian goods".
Actually, they don't steal resources from the luxury liners - even if that was justifiable, which isn't in any ethical system I subscribe to - they just destroy them. I don't really see how randomly killing civilians can be counted as fighting for freedom.
Destroyer E said:
As far as other piracy goes, at least the Rebels fight against the Pirates. I seem to remember a mission string for the Rebels in which the Confederates had the Pirates do some dirty work for them (It might have been a plug though. T'was a long, long time ago).
Actually, it's the rebels whose missions involve dealing with some suspiciously pirate-like characters in order to obtain weapons, even though their ships will normally attack pirates; it's also significant that the rebels tolerate major pirate bases near the territory they control, whereas you won't find anything like that in Confederation space.
Destroyer E said:
- The Rebellion wants to stop Confederate oppression.
- The Confederacy wants to destroy the Rebellion (It's a good cause for them).
Try: The rebellion wants to destroy the Confederation, while the Confederation wants not to be destroyed. Note that the rebel mission strings consistently involve attacking the Confederation, stealing technologies, and even assassinating elected representatives, while the Confederation ones involve defending against rebel attacks, not attacking the rebel planets.
Destroyer E said:
On a final note for the Confederacy, I think with Matt Burch naming them as the "Confederacy" purposely gave them a negative connotation because it is the name of the Southern army in the American Civil War.
It's Confederation, not Confederacy, and if you're looking for the reasoning behind the name, I suggest you consider the relationship between confederations and federations (with, perhaps, reference to Star Trek ).
The Apple Cřre said:
Rebels, because the Confederation is making a horrible mess of things.
Uh, evidence? The Core Worlds seem quite well-managed and peaceable to me, especially if you compare them to rebel-controlled systems.
And what do ship speeds have to do with 'who are the good guys'?
Here's a pro-Rebel argument. Why would so many of the Outer Planets willingly join the Rebelion? The Rebelion can't have forced them to join, because without any planets they wouldn't have many ships, so they wouldn't be able to force planets to join their cause. And if things are so great under the Confeds, why would they listen to Rebel propaganda? Also, why would that company that designed the destroyer join them? If the Confederacy is so great, then there would be a large amount of prosperity, and thefore they could sell a lot more ships because more civilians would have loads of money.
Also, I believe the Rebels in EV are the good guys, and I've always thought of the EV:O renegades as pirates, not Rebels. The Rebels I was thinking of were the slaves that you help revolt. Perhaps I should have clarified that in my first post.
This post has been edited by Ace Rimmer : 02 November 2005 - 09:55 PM
Omg.
After all these years, this same question is asked again. And again. And yet again.
...and every time, the question has never achieved a factual answer. 
-JP
That's possibly because the storyline doesn't really give you enough information to tell, so most of the arguments are based on guesswork. EV:O and EV:N made it much easier to tell, execpt for the Strands in EV:O.
Ace Rimmer, on Nov 2 2005, 10:50 PM, said:
Why would so many of the Outer Planets willingly join the Rebelion?
They were the outlying and less affluent areas of the galaxy, and the rebels offered them more (perhaps even gave them more, since they weren't necessarily obliged to pay for it the way the Confederation would have been).
And we don't know how many people on those planets actually support the rebellion, and how many are simply keeping their heads down.
Ace Rimmer, on Nov 2 2005, 10:50 PM, said:
Also, why would that company that designed the destroyer join them?
They didn't - a few engineers defected to the rebellion, taking stolen Argosy plans with them, and probably became very powerful as a result.
Ace Rimmer said:
The Rebels I was thinking of were the slaves that you help revolt.
Okay, but they aren't really comparable, since they're a colonised people rising to free themselves from an imperial power, rather than a dissatisfied group starting a civil war to destroy the government.
Ace Rimmer said:
EV:O and EV:N made it much easier to tell, execpt for the Strands in EV:O.
With regards to the Strands, I think the problem there is that there's very little difference between them (though you can compare the number of lives taken in their respective mission strings).
Rebels, because the Confeds ships are slow (stated above) and are horridly painted. Blue is ugly. Red is awesome (unless in China).
Plus, Its a POINT OF VIEW. Your in a car with your friend, hes driving. You look at him and he seems to not be moving. Take the same friend and the same car, stand on the outside of it. Hes moving now. Same can be applied to this arguement.
Lets state that the "car" is the Confeds. The "car" is moving and youre in side of it. You see it one way, thus the Rebels are evil. You stand outside of it, you see your friend moving (as well as the car) and thus the Confeds are evil. Theres no way to change a persons point of view.
"Rebels, because the Confeds ships are slow and are horridly painted"?
So, basically, you say a side is evil because they have slow ships and a color you don't like? What a wonderful argument.
As for point of view: Car movement and the morality of two governments are different.
-Bob
