If we make a plot it should be mostly backround info. Leave the real story to the players.

Jimbob, on Jan 11 2005, 11:39 PM, said:

If we make a plot it should be mostly backround info. Leave the real story to the players.
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Alright. That sounds good to me.

As another "veteran" of BfSIII and the webstory community of old, I think I'll add my two cents on the topic of "What Makes a Good Webstory." It's been forever since I've read these forums, longer still since I've posted, and it's kindof ammusing to me that I'm back addressing a topic that formed the begining of my involvement with them.

I wrote in several webstories on and off the EV forums, and even tried launching one of my own. I had a lot of fun, and as Skyblade can probably recall, got into a lot of arguments (some of which were with him). What I came to realize was that no matter what measures you take to avoid it, the conflict of the story is going to spill over into conflict among the writers. Having a moderator that's seperate from the story can help, but what's mostly important is a moderator that has credibility and respect from everyone else. It's also good when the writers respect each other, but that's not always the case.

As far as actually setting up the structure of the Webstory goes, I think the "traditional" EV Forum methods pretty much stink. Going back to BfSII (I think, maybe it started somewhere else) there was this need to break everything down to numbers. Everything came from a government's "income" which ammounted to money. Planets generated general ammounts, and every ship, weapon, project, and gadget was taken from that. In addition to that you had all kinds of complicated and convoluted rule structures governing every potential situation in the hope of providing stability. What ended up happening was a string of webstories on this board that have failed pretty much without exception since that time. The thing is, when you make rules, everyone tries to work them to their own advantage, and the more rules you make, the more people manipulate them.

Which goes right to what Skyblade said: simplicity is best.

Now, you may be asking "Well, Ipvicus, if everything on the EV board went pretty much bad... what should we look at instead?" Glad you brought it up. EV: Override stories. Some of the most successful, interesting, and fun webstories that ever were happend on the EV:O board. They were a total breed apart from EV Webstories, and were halmarks of simplicity. Now, don't get me wrong, they definatly had their problems, but it's amazing how well they did despite them.

My advice would be to go check out some of what they did. Red Horizon, Golden Horizon, Silver Horizon, and Reign of Chaos are three EV:O stories that had immense success. Another story that I was actually involved with was Eve of Destruction. It was a bit more modest, but we managed to have things simple and fun, but not totally chaotic. We had a system that was easy, fair, and worked mostly without complaint throughout the story's run.

Eve of Destruction.
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/forums/index.php...pic=15037&st;=25

The Red Horizon
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/forums/index.php...1&st;=&p;=&#

It sounds like the general opinion is that we should stick to the original galaxy, which is fine with me.

Here are the rules from Eve of Destruction with a few additional ideas:
Common sense to be used at all times.
Real-time will be used for building. Times for ship construction (a general time for each ship class: fighter, cruiser, or capital warship) will be set. I agree with Captain Skyblade that research should be banned to keep it simpler and to avoid arguments.
A maximum ship construction per day will be issued for each government.
No single-post battles. Battles will have their outcome decided by a neutral moderator (not a participant in the story) or a battle calculator program (I don't have the experience to write one). I am leaning towards a neutral moderator or neutral moderating team. Any suggestions or volunteers.
All players are to be treated as if their crews are the same in every way(no "my crews are more experianced than yours so i can kill 8 destroyers at the loss of one ship" nonsense).
Ship and Fleet movement restricted by fuel capacity alone.
Effective Scanning Range is no more than 2 system radius(Unless upgraded).
Players can overrule the moderater(s) provided they all agree.
There will be two main governments (the Rebellion and the Confederation). Each will have one overall leader, with various rank subordinates (from single-ship to singe-fleet to multiple fleets).
You may not kill another member's character without permission.
Defense fleets will be constructed three days after a planet is finished. Each fleet may have twelve capital warships and eighteen cruiser (that is destroyer and equivalent classes).
So ideas? Suggestions?

This post has been edited by Selax : 20 January 2005 - 09:57 PM

Okay, just to give you guys an idea about what I'm thinking, here's a basic layout for a story structure that you guys can get up and run with.

Rules

Common sense to be applied to all posts, all the time.

Each government will construct a set number of ships per Real Time Day. The makeup of this construction can be changed/redirected with moderator approval.

All research and projects must be moderator approved, and will be developed per Real Time Days.

Each major government will have two (2) Research/Project slots. Pirate and Independant players will have only one (1).

During a battle players must wait for their opponents to post a reply before continuing the battle.

Training of all personel between governments is considered to be equivilant. If you want to have your elite squadrons, keep in mind that your enemy has the same right.

During normal posting Fleet movements are restricted by fuel capacity and political boundries.

During battle posts travel time between systems must be accounted for when considering reinforcements. Basicly this means that unless you sent ships before the battle started they probably won't be able to be included in the battle.

Moderators can be overruled by the players if they all agree. Moderators that are players are not allowed to make decisions that directly affect their government.

Naval Forces

Confederation
40 Cruisers
-160PS (carried)
160 Frigates
120 Patrol Ships
100 Gunships
Confederation Ships

Rebellion
50 Cruisers
-200 Matas (carried)
130 Destroyers
300 Mantas
Rebellion Ships

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Pirate and Independant players have a bit of freedom assembling their own fleets. You are allowed to choose your ships in each catagory from the lists below. Each class must be split among at least two (2) different ships, containing at least 30% of a different type. If you want, you can split have as many types of ships as you desire.

Warship List
Freighter List
Fighter List

Players also have the ability to modify their Freighter class ship designs. Pirate players can turn up to 50% of their Freighter's cargo space into weapons upgrades. Independant players can convert up to 25%. These design changes are subject to moderator approval, so don't go too crazy.

Note: When choosing fighters, you can get 1.5 Defenders or Hawks for each 1 Fighter slot. This reflects the inexpensiveness of these models. Just for an example, if a Pirate player took the full 70% for one fighter model they could get 36 Rapiers or Ligtnings, or 52 Hawks or Defenders.
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Pirates
20 Warships
36 Freighters (Modified to Player Spec, with Moderator approval)
52 Fighters

Independant
12 Warships
45 Freighters (Modified to Player Spec, with Moderator approval)
36 Fighters

Construction

Construction basicly starts as 10% of whatever your starting force is. For the Rebels and Confeds, it looks like this.

Confederation
4 Cruisers per Real Time Day
-16PS (carried)
16 Frigates pRTD
12 Patrol Ships pRTD
10 Gunships pRTD

Rebellion
5 Cruisers pRTD
-20 Mantas (carried)
13 Destroyers pRTD
30 Mantas pRTD

Pirates and Independants will start with a production value derived from their starting Naval Force whenever they submit it to the moderator.
---------------------------

As you can see, it's fairly simple. If you have any comments, questions, obvious ######-ups to point out, don't hesitate to tell me what you think. None of this is anything I can enforce on you, it's just a suggestion of a good starting point. If you guys want to change something, post it and discuss it. If you think it's s### and don't want to touch it at all... that's cool too.

If you want to use the system, but aren't too hot about me moderating or being in charge, have no fear, because I'm not really all that interesting in control of this story. I just want you guys to have something good to go on, and this has worked well in the past. If you do want me to moderate or some such, that's cool too.

(Edit)Tweaked the Confed naval/construction numbers a bit to give them a few more Gunships.(/Edit)

This post has been edited by Vice Admiral Ipvicus : 15 January 2005 - 01:38 PM

Oh, wow... Selax you posted while I was writing. I'm glad that you want to use the EoD rules, and you even mentioned some that I clean forgot about. Most of it's just the same thing said differently, but there are a few things that are different.

Here's what you posted that is different than my suggestions:

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You may not kill another member's character without permission.

Duh! Can't believe I forgot this one, it's a must for any webstory.

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There will be two main governments (the Rebellion and the Confederation). Each will have one overall leader, with various rank subordinates (from single-ship to singe-fleet to multiple fleets).

Yeah, this is something I forgot to address, subordinants should definatly be included. Also, you don't mention Pirates and Indies, but I think they should be allowed in if there are players for the main govs.

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Real-time will be used for building. Times for ship construction (a general time for each ship class: fighter, cruiser, or capital warship) will be set.

Hmm, this is actually a slightly different type of system. Since you also posted the "maximum construction will be set" part, I'm not sure caught that they were different.

The way that the system I'm suggesting works is that every day a certain number of ships are constructed by each government. It's a little bit easier than saying "it takes X days to build X fighters, it takes 2X days to build X Destroyers, and it takes 3X days to build X cruisers" Because you're building fewer of the bigger ships every day than smaller ships it ammounts to the same thing, but it's easier to keep track of.

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I agree with Captain Skyblade that research should be banned to keep it simpler and to avoid arguments.

This one I'm not sure about. I've been in stories where having research was a burden, and stories where it was something that really improved everyone's fun. This is something you guys are going to have to decide on. If you have a moderator that's willing to really scrutinize every research project and make sure nobody is being abusive I think research can be a great thing. It just depends.

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Defense fleets will be constructed three days after a planet is finished. Each fleet may have twelve capital warships and eighteen cruiser (that is destroyer and equivalent classes).

To be honest with you, I don't think that BfSIII style defense fleets should be used. Actually, no defense fleets at all. Players should use their standing naval forces to defend worlds. This also avoids favoring the player that goes on the offensive first. You should have the forces to hold your aquisitions already, and be ready to retreat if you lose too much. People shouldn't get free ships just for taking a world over.

Feel free to tell me if you think I've got it all wrong.

I didn't read it yet, but sounds good to me. I'll read it later. Promise. On that last part though, the planet should have a samll feelt at least.

This post has been edited by duke_juker : 15 January 2005 - 11:17 AM

Greetings.
Bob did indeed bribe me to come take a look, and i must say, i like what i'm seeing. With a little luck, maybe we can have tech research, without it going overboard. I wont mention any names, but in Endless War, there was someone that just went crazy with anti-missiles. Eve of Destruction(my other webstory) went very well as i recall. I dont think that i'll be able to play this one, seeing as i just joined an EVO story in it's early development. I do hope to read good things though. Best of luck.

I read your long post. It all sounds good. We just need to see if everyone agrees with the ideas we have.

When can we start? (j/k)

About the defence fleet you was talking about: I think its most correct (thinking of real life war, and how it work that way) that they who capture an planet, have to rebuild the defence fleet. However, I think it also will be corect, after taking over an planet, you get add. X% more ships you could build each day. Like changing the orginaly 10% to a higer number.

Another thing Im a bit fussed ower, is time/traveling/attacking. Let me come whit an example: The confe fleet are gathering in the Matar syatem, taking a jump over in the empty Risa system, and then lunch an attack on the reb syatem Zaphod. From my way to think, they will use, whit ConfCruisers, 6 days on that travel. Whit the posibility of the rebels getting news on the attack, via spys, using 2 days to travel to the same system, 3 days to travel one more system to warn the HQ/fleet commander, I would say, the battle will start at the moment the fleet leave the system.

Like: if the rebs have planted a spy in the system, the confed fleet have to wait on the rebs move, before continue whit theirs next jump. Even, if thinking theoretical correct, the rebels could launch a small group if fighters, using 1 day in hyperspace, to meet the upcoming conf. fleet in the Risa system.

Okey. Im thinking wery complicated now. But. Err.. I always do. Thats why I usaly come whit lot of, more or less, stupid questions.

Another thought, is to reduse the planetary defence fleet, so the players will be delayed in the actions, by building up the border defence. Something I guess its cool, if its many new players is joining....

-----*-----

(something in my brain exploded. Im back laters)

Iiriatt, on Jan 16 2005, 03:51 PM, said:

When can we start? (j/k)

About the defence fleet you was talking about: I think its most correct (thinking of real life war, and how it work that way) that they who capture an planet, have to rebuild the defence fleet. However, I think it also will be corect, after taking over an planet, you get add. X% more ships you could build each day. Like changing the orginaly 10% to a higer number.

In real life wars you useually don't have your real army, and then a seperate "Defense Army" in every town. You use the troops you have to defend the places that need defending. This is why I think the idea of "Defense Fleets" is something from the games that dosn't translate into a webstory setting. And for another thing, it's unfair. People shouldn't get free ships to hold things they take over.

Quote

Another thing Im a bit fussed ower, is time/traveling/attacking. Let me come whit an example: The confe fleet are gathering in the Matar syatem, taking a jump over in the empty Risa system, and then lunch an attack on the reb syatem Zaphod. From my way to think, they will use, whit ConfCruisers, 6 days on that travel. Whit the posibility of the rebels getting news on the attack, via spys, using 2 days to travel to the same system, 3 days to travel one more system to warn the HQ/fleet commander, I would say, the battle will start at the moment the fleet leave the system.

Okay, here's where you might be a little confused with the system. In every webstory post you're allowed to take up roughly a week's worth of time in the game world. For purposes of launching an attack, you can have your ships leave from your base, and arrive in the enemy system to begin the battle all in the same post. In fact, as the attacker, that's exactly what you should do.

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Like: if the rebs have planted a spy in the system, the confed fleet have to wait on the rebs move, before continue whit theirs next jump. Even, if thinking theoretical correct, the rebels could launch a small group if fighters, using 1 day in hyperspace, to meet the upcoming conf. fleet in the Risa system.

Just because of the problems it causes between players, in webstories we generally assume that everyone is immune to spies and espionage.

Quote

Another thought, is to reduse the planetary defence fleet, so the players will be delayed in the actions, by building up the border defence. Something I guess its cool, if its many new players is joining....
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I think that if all sides rely on their fleets to keep things in line, then they won't need defense fleets to delay. Players won't extend themselves too far for fear of being opened to attack. Like in an actual war.

The reason that I didn't mention Independents or pirates in my last post is because I don't think they should be included, although if everyone thinks they should be they can be added. (I came up with this to have enough players for both sides and to avoid having to balance any advantages that some people might want given to them—at least, advantages had been planned in General Rak's web story).
As for defense fleets, I'd like to hear other members opinions on them before deciding.
On fleet construction, I think each player should get a portion of their government's income to buy their own ships. Vice Admiral Ipvicus, I am not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean that each player gets a certain amount of ships that they can build per day? The Rebellion could have a shipyard at Sirgil to compensate for the Confederation's centrally placed Sol shipyard.
About income: I think each government should get the same amount but how much should each planet produce?
I think for movement each series of hyperspace jumps takes one day to complete, although I'd like to hear suggestions.
I still think technology research should be banned, but I'd like ideas and suggestions.
I will look through the topic and post the full rules once all the feedback is in and all the issues are settled.

Some roles that need filling (I'd prefer that you have enough time to get on at least once every three or four days, though this isn't required):
A neutral moderator or a team of neutral moderators (can't be participants in the story).
A Confederation leader and x number of various rank subordinates (I'd prefer that both have an equal number of players).
A Rebel leader and x number of various rank suboridinates.

At least post and say whether you plan to join or are still interested.

As for myself, I'd like to apply for the position of a Confederation Admiral (not the leader).

I want to apply to be an Admiral for the Confeds, too. I want a cruiser. And lots of frigate escorts. I like all the ideas. I think we are almost ready to start making this game.

This post has been edited by duke_juker : 18 January 2005 - 09:38 PM

I need to clarify something concerning the Rebel and Confederate leaders. Everyone will apply for the position of some rank subordinate and, when these positions are all filled, everyone on each side will vote for which of their fellow subordinates they want to be their leader. Then, everyone on both sides will vote on the applicants for neutral moderator (or moderators).
To avoid one side being able to completely alter their fleet in one period of ship-designing, each side will take ten days to research two ships designs. There will be one day after these ships have been finished being designed for the decision on which ones to use to occur. These designs will be chosen by the leader of each side (a general vote can overrule his decision) or a general vote among all the players who are able to vote in the space of the day.
Each player will get a certain starting number of ships that he may have in his fleet.
How should upgrading be done? Should each ship design include what class ship will be upgraded to that design and the upgrading occur automatically in the day between ship designing periods?

Ok. I get it. Well, I'd rather just be a pilot with a strong ship. Upgrading should probably be done by yourself. Maybe we can mention the ship class that can be modified. For crusiers, it would be like heavy missle to heavy guns or whatever. We don't have to make it that complicated. But however complicated you want it, we can do that.

I wasn't referring to member's ships when I talked about upgrading (any member with a single ship will have an upgradeable ship, except to the next ship design)—I was referring to ships in general. Example: The Confederation designs a new frigate. To avoid confusion, it'd be best if that design could replace all existing older frigates. This would be done the day after the design had been researched.
The biggest issue that I can think of left to resolve is the matter of defense fleets. Should they be included or not?
Also, should each member get a set number of ships (whatever class they choose) per day and if a lot of their government's space is conquered should this number decrease (to simulate less resources being available to build with)? Or should their be an income system, a portion of which goes to each member and they can buy their fleet?

Selax, on Jan 18 2005, 10:54 PM, said:

I wasn't referring to member's ships when I talked about upgrading (any member with a single ship will have an upgradeable ship, except to the next ship design)—I was referring to ships in general. Example: The Confederation designs a new frigate. To avoid confusion, it'd be best if that design could replace all existing older frigates. This would be done the day after the design had been researched.
The biggest issue that I can think of left to resolve is the matter of defense fleets. Should they be included or not?
Also, should each member get a set number of ships (whatever class they choose) per day and if a lot of their government's space is conquered should this number decrease (to simulate less resources being available to build with)? Or should their be an income system, a portion of which goes to each member and they can buy their fleet?
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I see. OK. It is neccessary for the older frigates to be pulled and the newer versions put in. There should be defence fleets only for the purpose of defending. If a planet or station is attacked, we need the pilots to have an equal time to repond to the attack. So we do need the defence fleets. Each member should have a set number of ships, but they should not decrease with the capture of any planet or station of the government they serve. Their should also be an income system. Depending on rank, honors, and captured planets for the player, the government splits up the money between the players according to what they deserve. They can use this money to buy or to save. That is all I can see with the post you gave me. I don't like to write alot, but I'll do the best I can.

Guys, one word: awesome. I hope this really kicks serious gym membership ass.

I'd like to apply now for a Rebellion spot, or at least mention my interest in one for when the time comes to team up.

Another thing we might want to watch out for/calculate is the ratio of Ships per fleet to ship production. In Endless War reinforcement fleets that had just been built were almost as large as the main fleets.

This new version is almost done. All we need is to fix the bugs and we're good to go. Jimbob, we'll figure out something. It's not picture perfect yet. But it will be soon.

Ok, I have come up with ideas concerning defence fleets and fleet construction. These are still ideas and might change if anyone has a good suggestion.
Defense fleets will be included but will be only fifteen ships—five heavy warships and ten lighter warships—and will automatically be constructed on captured planets after three days.
Each member will get a certain number of ships per day. He may choose what classes these ships will be. Confederate ships will be built at Sol, and Rebellion ships will be built at Palshife or Sirgil.

I am still wondering if, when a certain number of enemy planets falls, the enemy should lose some fleet production ability. As I said earlier, this would simulate the loss of resources. It also occured to me that, if each side keeps full production capability even if they have only a few planets left, they'd have a shipyard turning out a large amount of ships right on the battlefield, although I suppose this would make it challenging and perhaps the attacking government could move their shipyard closer. One idea is to make each ship cost a certain amount of income (all your income for one particular day would automatically be spent after you purchased all the ships that you could afford that day) and each planet produces a certain amount of income, so that as planets fall there is less income and ship production lessens.

Ok, I will now examine player numbers:
Amount who have applied for positions: 3
Minimum amount needed to start: 6 (preferably 3 on each side)
Amount desired to start: 10 (preferably 5 on each side)
Number of neutral moderators: no official applications yet
I repeat: it'd would be good (although not required) if you could post every three or four days, for neutral moderators two or three days.