Quote

Originally posted by Destroyer E:
**You said the Feds would win. They can't, the game does not end.

**

They would, if it did. Since it does not, they don't.

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I had a (url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewforum.php?f=6")dream(/url) that I had about a (url="http://"http://evula.com")dozen(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=56&SUBMIT;=Go")links(/url) here. (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=6&SUBMIT;=Go")Mostly(/url) to other (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=20&SUBMIT;=Go")places(/url) on this (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=1")site(/url). (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=10&SUBMIT;=Go")Weird(/url).

Just because statistical evidence alone says a certain army will win is no reason to assume they will. Again and again throughout history this has been proven incorrect.

For example, should the Rebels have a much more competent leadership than the Confederation, it is quite possible that the technological advantage of the Confederation alone will not be sufficient to defeat the Rebellion.

A contemporary example would be Israel (the analog of the Rebellion in regards to statistical weakness) and the Arab States (the analog of the Confederation in regards to apparent statistical strength) during the War of Independence in 1948.

Always examine all the options, or at least keep an open mind that not everything can be reduced to mere numbers.

Peace,
Solel

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_Originally posted by David Arthur:
Actually, there are very few details given in the game about the political systems of either government (all we really know is that the Confederation has a military, a Senate, and an investigative body of some sort, and that the rebellion has a military), and there isn't really much evidence about how much power is divided in the Confederation between the general and the local (planetary, I assume) governments.
_

The fact that there were very few details about either government being evil or good seriously helped the player just go with what he felt like he was. Some one who liked to cheer for the underdog would go with the rebels, while those who liked the current government could go with the confederation.

So to the player it isn't a choice between being good or evil, it's a choice between the underdog, and the champ.

Chamrin

Quote

Originally posted by Chamrin:
**_Originally posted by David Arthur:
Actually, there are very few details given in the game about the political systems of either government (all we really know is that the Confederation has a military, a Senate, and an investigative body of some sort, and that the rebellion has a military), and there isn't really much evidence about how much power is divided in the Confederation between the general and the local (planetary, I assume) governments.
_

The fact that there were very few details about either government being evil or good seriously helped the player just go with what he felt like he was. Some one who liked to cheer for the underdog would go with the rebels, while those who liked the current government could go with the confederation.

So to the player it isn't a choice between being good or evil, it's a choice between the underdog, and the champ.

Chamrin**

Not to mention that it left plenty of room for plugin developers to write their own takes on what the Confederation and the Rebels were like. It's there, and that's why we can have discussions like this, isn't it?

Peace,
Solel

Editted out the EVO referrences...d'oh.

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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
—J. R. R. Tolkien
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(This message has been edited by Solel (edited 07-03-2003).)

Quote

Originally posted by Solel:
**Not to mention that it left plenty of room for plugin developers to write their own takes on what the UE and the Voinians (as well as many of the other governments) were like. It certainly wasn't as open-ended as Council Station, but it's there, and that's why we can have discussions like this, isn't it?:D

Peace,
Solel

**

Right... but that's EVO.

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I had a (url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewforum.php?f=6")dream(/url) that I had about a (url="http://"http://evula.com")dozen(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=56&SUBMIT;=Go")links(/url) here. (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=6&SUBMIT;=Go")Mostly(/url) to other (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=20&SUBMIT;=Go")places(/url) on this (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=1")site(/url). (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=10&SUBMIT;=Go")Weird(/url).

Quiet you!

I feel like such an idiot...

(Edits above post...)

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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
—J. R. R. Tolkien
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Well USA isn't the only country on Earth, besides just imagine that one day the USA was taken over and the Rebellion is trying to restore it. Either way the Rebels are the best...

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Quote

Originally posted by AngelB:
**If one fights against the conederation, despite his logical reasoning, he is fighting against the earth, and thus, against the united states of america. I was just wondering about the moral ramifications created by this action.
**

Quote

The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus , etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good citizens. Others, as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers, and office-holders, serve the state chiefly with their heads; and, as they rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God. A very few, as heroes, patriots, martyrs, reformers in the great sense, and men, serve the state with their consciences also, and so necessarily resist it for the most part; and they are commonly treated as enemies by it.

-HDT "Civil Disobediance"

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Quote

Originally posted by CaptAceHarddrive:
**I In "Operation Iraqi Freedom," we didn't go there to fight the people, just rid them of their country's oppressive government and thus give the people their freedom. Personally, I think there were "ulterior" motives behind going in there (i.e. nuclear weapons, bio-weapons...), but we used the "get rid of the oppressive gov't and give the people their freedom" (not a bad idea) as the reason for going over there.
**

What country do you live in? Last time I checked, the US claimed they were going to war with Iraq to get those big, bad weapons. It wasn't until the weapons were not found that the US administration started spinning things to say that the US went to war to get ride of an oppressive government. Besides, wasn't it the US President's daddy that helped the Iraqi government get so powerful in the first place? If the US ever find bio-weapons in Iraq, I'm betting they will be wrapped up in cheerful paper with a card reading, "Happy Ramadan, Saddam! Your pal, Ronald."

Sorry, not really on topic, but people need to think about what they hear more.

-STH

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(This message has been edited by seant (edited 07-23-2003).)

Quote

Originally posted by seant:
**Besides, wasn't it the US President's daddy that helped the Iraqi government get so powerful in the first place? If the US ever find bio-weapons in Iraq, I'm betting they will be wrapped up in cheerful paper with a card reading, "Happy Ramadan, Saddam! Your pal, Ronald."

**

Umm, Ronald Regan was Bush's father?

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Quote

Originally posted by TrevorG:
**
Umm, Ronald Regan was Bush's father?

**

I wish! It would make being a democrat much more fun.

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“Do you expect me to talk?”
“No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die.”
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(This message has been edited by David of Mac (edited 07-30-2003).)

Let's try to keep it EV-related, please...

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Quote

Originally posted by EVula:
**. The US, as we know it, probably doesn't exist.

**

Good thing too

-Starbridge42

BTW EVula can you please read the PM I sent you on EV-Nova.net. Please!!!

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Quote

Originally posted by AngelB:
**If one fights against the conederation, despite his logical reasoning, he is fighting against the earth, and thus, against the united states of america. I was just wondering about the moral ramifications created by this action.
**

While it is an interesting point to wonder if the United States will exist 200 years from now, what is not in doubt is what must be done against an Evil Confederation™. There is no moral obligation or ramification against rebelling against an oppressive government. True, if you lose, you stand subject to the nation's legal ramifications, but legal and moral are not synonyms. After all, the United States was born in a similar spirit of rebellion.

"For if it is a citizen's duty to serve a good government as best he can, it is also his duty to resist a bad government as best he can...indeed, to the ends of his strength and will." - Mark Valentine

(I think Ursula Le Guin said something similar, too.)

Cheers,
Guapo

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Quote

Originally posted by ElGuapo7:
<snip>

Actually, since morals are relative, you cannot claim general moral righteousness for anything. In fact, the concept of natural law (which Jefferson used to garner support for independence) is fatally flawed. The only justification the colonists had for declaring independence was that they desired a different system of government.

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Quote

Originally posted by General Rak:
Actually, since morals are relative, you cannot claim general moral righteousness for anything.

Quite right. And neither can the United States of America or the Confederation. You've helped prove my point brilliantly.
**

Quote

In fact, the concept of natural law (which Jefferson used to garner support for independence) is fatally flawed. The only justification the colonists had for declaring independence was that they desired a different system of government.

**

I love this board. You can pick up a conversation after a month of inactivity and no one will care.

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Quote

Originally posted by ElGuapo7:
Quite right. And neither can the United States of America or the Confederation. You've helped prove my point brilliantly.

Very true. That's why the political philosophy of realism is fundamentally correct.

Quote

Originally posted by ElGuapo7:
Actually, natural law does exist - it's just that Jefferson misphrased it. It's "piss off your constituents, and they will piss you off in an equal and opposite proportion."

Oh? I thought that was Newton's law.

- Joshua

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I think it is worth pointing out that the Founders of this nation beleived a little revolution every now and then was healthy. If the Confederation had stripped the citizens of their freedoms, it would be patriotic for the citizens to rebel.

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