Insano,think. is incest a good and moral thing?.Because the Bible supports that.
I can't remember exactly which bit it was in,but it was some time after Genesis and before Revelations.

And Ares Said
"To govern ones self based on a moral code that you yourself had to decide upon is a much more comendable thing than obediance."

Very true.It requires that you believe in what you think is right,and that you decide what is right by yourself,and that you stick to it even if it would be easier not to.
Now that is a much better thing than simply doing what some guy back in the mists of time wrote in a book,in my opinion.
It's something even I,as a diehard Atheist,can follow.

Ares,can I put that in my sig?

And Insano Said
"John 14:6 says, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Fater except through me.'" Since I believe my religion is true, this means all other religions are false."

Sorry Insano.To me,and I'm sorry if I offend anybody,this sounds like someone who's found out he's on something really hot , and wants to retain control, and all the benefits which come with it.
Nowdays,don't perfectly ordainary people go to church on Sundays,and pray,and feel genuinely closer to God?They don't need to go to the Pope in the Vatican to get that sense of being "one with God".

And Insano Said Again
"Wow, I'm really getting to work out my apologetic muscles aren't I? Just because one does not feel the need for God, doesn't mean it's there. For example, I may not feel the need for an important body organ, so I have it removed. This does not mean that I didn't need that organ."

Insano,in the nearly sixteen years of my life,I have not yet found a personal use for God.I prefer to trust in the belief that there is a scientifically explainable solution.Obviously there are a lot of people who do feel a need for God.
What I'm saying is that not everyone needs God,and those who do will seek Him out via whatever form He takes in their culture,be it Islam,Hinduism,Zen Bhuddism, Christianity in it's myriad forms,Semitism,or whatever.

The only time I ever feel something approaching religious awe is when I go out on a cloudless,moonless night and look up at all those myriad stars.
I don't see the Kingdom of Heaven,but more an overwhelming sense of destiny ,
that someday,somehow,humanity will be out there among those stars.

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Quote

Originally posted by Macavenger:
**I wondered if Lobster would find this... I'd listen to him, Insano. He's the local expert on this, you could say.;)
**

I have little interest in discussing or defending myself from biblical arguments -- I am neither religious nor do I believe that people can justify intolerance or hostility with their faith.

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eeelllephant fissshh....

Quote

Originally posted by Lobster:
**I have little interest in discussing or defending myself from biblical arguments -- I am neither religious nor do I believe that people can justify intolerance or hostility with their faith.

**

awwwwwww, that's no fun

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Quote

Originally posted by Azdara Ace:
**awwwwwww, that's no fun;)
**

I just think it's just an unfair argument that I should receive social, emotional, or whatever sanctions because someone's religion condemns homosexuality. I'm not saying they have to love me and cater to my every whim, but the hostility during the past gay debates has just bearly stopped from crossing the line into hatefulness, and in my opinion, it sometimes has. I've been compared to a child molester, been accused of lying, and an array of other things that in any other circumstance would be extremely offensive. The only reason why it didn't register is because as I look back I realize how utterly submissive and accommodating I was with hateful, malicious, unreasonable people who see threats seeking to destroy them lurking around ever bend in life.

Of course, this is all somewhat pointless banter. People can talk a lot of trash, but it really should amount to very little at the end of the day. Given that, I find the hostility strikes a dichotomy of amusement and frustration within me, but the despair is gone, and that alone is something to feel good about.

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eeelllephant fissshh....

If someone is gay but doesn't want to be, then they're lying. They don't have a choice of which gender they prefer, and on rare occasions does someone not like being gay, and they can actually change their preference and go straight. Even if they do, they probably will still feel a draw to the same gender.

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Quote

Originally posted by Jimbob:
**If someone is gay but doesn't want to be, then they're lying. They don't have a choice of which gender they prefer, and on rare occasions does someone not like being gay, and they can actually change their preference and go straight. Even if they do, they probably will still feel a draw to the same gender.
**

You should read what I said on page 2 about choice. In terms of action, being gay is a choice. In terms of attraction, being gay is not a choice.

It may be a choice of action, but it's not exactly one you think about. Of course there is anti-gay pressure and stuff, but unless you are extremely self-hating, saying "I'm attracted to guys so I think I'll go get a girlfriend" is somewhat absurd. The argument that you choose to be gay because you don't choose to go "get help" for it is also absurd; reparative therapy is not only controversial, but the process of resisting homosexuality is a lifelong process, because as I said, reparative therapy's goal is to get rid of behavior, and while it may repress attraction, attraction will still be there. To think it could cure attraction is implying that homosexual attraction is a choice, which is even more absurd.

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eeelllephant fissshh....

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
**Remember, I don't have anything against homosexuals, just their actions.
**

That's what everyone says, but the two go hand-in-hand.

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eeelllephant fissshh....

Quote

Originally posted by Captain Skyblade:
Americans our day in time believe that "freedom" refers to complete access to whatever they want and wish for. The truth is, the founding fathers created the government as the Bible being the ultimate source of law. The Constitution was based on Biblical principles, which is why the liberals and democrats in Capitol Hill are doing their best to ratify each and every ammendment.

You are saying that you should have the freedom to practice your religion, i.e., go to church, pray, discuss religion openly, wear religious-related clothing or jewelry, and use your religion as the backbone of your opinions. You have the freedom to get a job without being discriminated against because you are Christian.

However, I, as a gay person, should not have the freedom to be in a relationship with another male because it offends you and your religion.

Since when does freedom of religion supersede all freedoms? I do not see anything in the Constitution that says anything as such. I also do not see any excerpts from the Bible in the Constitution, nor anything that says "refer to the Bible for further information." Regardless of whether the framers were God-fearing, Bible-worshipping people, I think saying our country and government were founded on Biblical principles is stretching it a bit, and stretching it even farther when you say that the Bible is the ultimate source of law. If you truly believe that, I suggest you do some reading about the Founders, their intentions, and the results of all of it.

Besides, it doesn't matter how much you believe in your religion, using it to justify treating a group of people badly is just bad taste. I am often frustrated by people such as yourself that feel they must take it upon themselves to do so, but nonetheless, they are my friends anyway.

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eeelllephant fissshh....

Quote

Originally posted by Lobster:
Regardless of whether the framers were God-fearing, Bible-worshipping people, I think saying our country and government were founded on Biblical principles is stretching it a bit, and stretching it even farther when you say that the Bible is the ultimate source of law.

The country was founded on Christian principles, and many people of other religons, and atheists, share some of these principles, because religion is not just a belief, it is a way of life. This doesn't mean that the Constitution is against homosexuality at all, though. In fact, I would say that it tis the exact opposite. I point this out often, but not all Christians are far right-wing people, but there is an enourmous ammount of Christians more to the right. I've given the example many times that my church has two ministers: one is gay, and one is female. This country was founded primarily by Anglicans (Episcopalians, of which I am one), and thus, Anglican principles were a major influence on this country's formation.

As for pointing to the Bible as a source of American law, that's just not intelligent. The argument that since this country was founded on Christian principles, everyone should obey the Bible is so flawed, that I'm not going to address it.

One more point: because one church says something doesn't mean that the other churches agree. They share different values and beliefs, just like different groups do. Before anyone brings the argument "Well, the Pope says..." to the table, at least when adressing me, don't. That's like saying that Tony Blair represents me.

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"My guitar gently weeps." George Harrison, 1943-2001

Quote

But He didn't. The story of creation was just that: a story. It was intended for simple minds, and humans are more sophisticated than that, now. This isn't an issue of ability; this is an issue of fact. I suppose that you don't believe that dinosaurs existed.

This is an interesting theory that I hadn't heard before. Show me where the Bible says it's just a story. And show me how evolution is more logical than this. It takes more faith to believe humans came from tadpoles than to believe they came from an all powerful God. And where did all the stuff from evolution come from?

Quote

An eye for an eye." "Turn the other cheek."

That is not a contradiction. These refer to two different things. An eye for an eye for big things, like murder. Turn the othe cheek to small personal matters. This is a bad example, but like teasing.

Quote

Again, it is a bad idea to put blind faith in a document. I am convinced that the Old Testament is little more than the basic ideals of the societies responsible for their writings, and not so much the Word of God

This is not blind faith, it is a knowledgeable faith. Because I have not found one thing wrong with the Bible. The old testament has many, many propecies. The old testament is the foundation for the new. W/O the old testament whether or not Jesus is the saviour would be undeterminable.

Quote

is incest a good and moral thing?.Because the Bible supports that.
I can't remember exactly which bit it was in,but it was some time after Genesis and before Revelations

Thanks for making it so narrow an area. But I remember several cases of this. In one paticular one, God condemned it. In the others, the human population wasn't large enough so that this could be avoided.

Quote

To me,and I'm sorry if I offend anybody,this sounds like someone who's found out he's on something really hot, and wants to retain control, and all the benefits which come with it.

I would say that too if it wasn't the son of God.

Quote

Insano,in the nearly sixteen years of my life,I have not yet found a personal use for God.

Is going to hell without God enough of a reason?

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STVEF name: Insano

Just a note: This topic has kinda degraded into non-EV territory, but I'm willing to overlook it just this once (religion just happens to be one of my favorite topics... take a look at my (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/amazon/")Book Wish List(/url) for proof). However, every once and a while, someone say something about EV, please.

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
Show me where the Bible says it's just a story.

Have you ever heard of the story of the Tortoise and the Hare? Show me where in that story that it said that it's just a story. In the story about the Emporer's New Clothes, did it ever just stop and say "by the way, the Emporer didn't exist, this is just a story". I'm not saying that the OT (or the NT, for that matter) was false, I'm merely making a point.

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
Besides, it doesn't matter how much you believe in your religion, using it to justify treating a group of people badly is just bad taste.

Indeed, that is partially the same thing that happened to early Christians in ancient Rome. They became a scapegoat, and were unjustly blamed for many things. For example, Nero blamed them for a fire that destroyed a good amount of the city, when it wasn't their fault; that started their persecution even more than it had been before. Am I the only one that hears voices saying "Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it?" Actually, change that question to "am I the only one that hears voices?".

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Quote

Originally posted by Starkiller:
The country was founded on Christian principles, and many people of other religons, and atheists, share some of these principles, because religion is not just a belief, it is a way of life. This doesn't mean that the Constitution is against homosexuality at all, though.

The country may have been founded on values derived from Christianity, but labeling it Christian principles implies someone outlined the operations of the country directly from the Bible or Christianity, and that is not true.

I'm aware that religion is a powerful and often positive force in society, I just think saying that Christian principles exclusively established our society and government is far too restrictive and far too inaccurate. Either way, it doesn't matter with what we're talking about.

(edit)Additionally, religion may be a way of life, but it isn't the only way of life. I'm tired of fundamentalist Christians screaming of how following their doctrine is the only legitimate lifestyle, just as fundamentalist Christians and pretty much the rest of America and the world are tired of rogue Islamic states sponsering terrorism to advocate that their lifestyle is the only legitimate one. Culture wars are frustrating in general.(/edit)

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eeelllephant fissshh....

(This message has been edited by Lobster (edited 12-15-2001).)

Quote

Originally posted by EVula:
**Indeed, that is partially the same thing that happened to early Christians in ancient Rome. They became a scapegoat, and were unjustly blamed for many things. For example, Nero blamed them for a fire that destroyed a good amount of the city, when it wasn't their fault; that started their persecution even more than it had been before. Am I the only one that hears voices saying "Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it?" Actually, change that question to "am I the only one that hears voices?".
**

I said what you quoted as Insano saying. Just pointing that out...

Anyway, what you said reminds me of Jerry Falwell a little.

And yes, I hear voices, too. They tell me to burn things.

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eeelllephant fissshh....

(This message has been edited by Lobster (edited 12-15-2001).)

I like flying my Kestrel in Escape Velocity.

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
**1. Almost all homosexual men had an absent father from the home. He was either working all the time, or not around the house because of a divorce or other reason.

2. They had an overprotective mother and/or one who hated men. This could have been from a divorce, abuse, or other reason.

3. They were recruited by someone else. This one's the biggie.
**

1. Okay... does that mean that someone who had an absent father from the home is going to be gay, no matter what?

2. Um, okay... again, show me the direct line between the two.

3. Isn't EVERYONE recruited by someone else? Christians are converted, people switch long-distance carriers, some people start eating other types of food... do you see what I'm saying?

As for getting #1-2 from the radio, provide some REAL facts before you start making statements like that. That's like walking up to someone and saying "You must suck, because Bubba said you suck!"

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
Persecute, no. Force, that's not good either. But trying to convince someone that their religion is right, that's good. Nonviolent methods. The reasons I tell people about my religion is not because I want my standing with God to go up, but because I want them to be in heaven.

Hey, more power to you, just please respect the rights of others. If they aren't interested, and they make that clear to you, and you still bug them, don't be surprised if they get upset. You have the right to voice your opinion, but that doesn't mean that they don't have the right to keep theirs.

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
Also, you didn't give me a Biblical reference on the topic of why homosexuality is wrong. I ask for one constantly on the boards, and nobody can come up with it.

In Levictus 18:22, it isn't stated as a sin, but it an abhomination (as is wearing clothing that is made of wool and cotton, and planting two types of crops in the same field). Those last two are in Levictus as well. Edit: Leviticus (I've been spelling it wrong, sorry) 19:19 is where it says those last two points.

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
Since I believe my religion is true, this means all other religions are false.

Agreed, and they (the to-be-converted) think the same thing. Who the hell in their right mind would think that they are wrong?

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
And there are no contradictions.

Matthew 1:1 is one of the bloodlines of David to JC. There is a second one, I just haven't found it yet (I didn't mark it in my Bible). There are also the two different deaths of Judas Iscariot (again, I don't have them marked in my Bible, so I don't know where they are right off the top of my head). One involves him haning himself (the priests bury the money in a field, which is then renamed), the other involves him falling and dying (in the same field). Both stories explain where the name comes from (it is the same name).

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
Insano,think.is incest a good and moral thing?.Because the Bible supports that.

As I recall, it WAS okay, because there was no other way (directly after Creation, as well as the Flood). After those two events, THEN it was declared bad.

Quote

Originally posted by Insano:
I said what you quoted as Insano saying. Just pointing that out...

I hadn't read all of the topic at that point.

Edit: Added the Leviticus number.

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(This message has been edited by EVula (edited 12-15-2001).)

Shade, feel free to use that in your sig. I don't much care.

As for inaccuracies in the Bible: All the Gospels have a different version of the last supper. Some say Jesus did communion before eating, one says after, I think one says both... The point is that you cannot put blind faith in something that is not accurate or perfect. Using the Bible as a guideline to live a good life is one thing, but allowing your life to revolve around it - and being disgusted when other people's lives don't - is a bad idea.

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--ares
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Quote

Originally posted by ares1:
**Using the Bible as a guideline to live a good life is one thing, but allowing your life to revolve around it - and being disgusted when other people's lives don't - is a bad idea.
**

Yeah...in a true htjyangistic revelation, I don't think doing what you said is realistic, especially in a society of other people who don't always share your beliefs.

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eeelllephant fissshh....

OK, I'm officialy having trouble keeping track of all this. Um, Escape Velocity is cool, yeah.

(quote)Matthew 1:1 is one of the bloodlines of David to JC. There is a second one, I just haven't found it yet (I didn't mark it in my Bible). There are also the two different deaths of Judas Iscariot (again, I don't have them marked in my Bible, so I don't know where they are right off the top of my head). One involves him haning himself (the priests bury the money in a field, which is then renamed), the other involves him falling and dying (in the same field). Both stories explain where the name comes from (it is the same name).

1. I don't recall a second bloodline. And it could have been Mary's, not Joseph's.
2. Hanging and falling are technically the same thing. In order for you to hang yourself, you need to fall.

1. Okay... does that mean that someone who had an absent father from the home is going to be gay, no matter what? No, of course not. It's just one possible contributing factor.

2. Um, okay... again, show me the direct line between the two. I don't understand...

3. Isn't EVERYONE recruited by someone else? Christians are converted, people switch long-distance carriers, some people start eating other types of food... do you see what I'm saying? Yes, and in order to be recruited you need to make a choice, now don't you?

(quote)Agreed, and they (the to-be-converted) think the same thing. Who the hell in their right mind would think that they are wrong?(/quote)

Of course, so you know where I'm getting this from. But my faith is not a blind one, I have a whole lot of evidence.

(quote)As I recall, it WAS okay, because there was no other way (directly after Creation, as well as the Flood). After those two events, THEN it was declared bad.(/quote)

Thank you.

(quote)As for inaccuracies in the Bible: All the Gospels have a different version of the last supper. Some say Jesus did communion before eating, one says after, I think one says both...(/quote)

Matthew and Mark say as he was eating. This is a very vague description. For example, when we sit down at the table, after we have taken one bite, we were eating. This could have been at the begginning, middle, or end of the meal. Luke says that they sat down, then Jesus said the things he said. This could also be considered as they were eating. They were at the table, and this is considered eating. The same is true with John.

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Go to the Escape Velocity Empire. (url="http://"http://evempire.netfirms.com")http://evempire.netfirms.com(/url) Post all your stuff and enjoy everyone else's.
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XWA name: KMG_Corran
STVEF name: Insano

You all know that this has turned into the BBar, right? You guys just wanted somewhere to go. And now this has turned into EV's BBar, but is unofficial. All of the BBAr Originals have come here and are chatting. You were just bored of the BBar?

I can see right through you.

I wonder why this hasn't been iLocked... since it's not a BBar.

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Quote

Originally posted by The Space Between:
**I wonder why this hasn't been iLocked... since it's not a BBar.

**

The EV Board is generally pretty good about staying on topic, and this is one of the only times I have seen it get this off-topic. I think, however, that the mods realise that every once in a while having a thing like this is OK, because it is a welcome break from what can become little but repetitive polls.

We have to be wild and crazy once in a while.

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--ares
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"A towel is about the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have." -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

I have never seen a topic on the EV board change so drasticly and still not be locked. It's almost like "Hehe" on Ares Trash Talk, but a whole lot more serious.

I will not enter the debate because:

a) I'm still resting from the last heated "Rebels vs. Feds" topic, in which David and I tore each other to shreds- politely, of course.

I don't know anyone who is a homosexual, so I wouldn't know.

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