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Originally posted by David Arthur:
The fact that the player isn't involved in something doesn't mean that it's not happening. In the Confederation mission to stop a frigate defecting to the Rebellion, you're told that they've decided it's better to let you deal with it than to deal with it through normal military channels. Perhaps the Rebellion does deal with such incidents through normal military channels. Also, since people's opinion of their cause is so important, I would think they would have a stronger incentive to keep any such incidents quiet.

You have no good way to support this claim; besides, even if the Rebellion did destroy on a regular basis a lot of defecting warships without telling the person they trust enough to destroy an alien cruiser, the fact that they hire a mercenary pilot, free to tell all what is going on, to just casually knock off whole Confederation warships (repeatedly, I might add), the entire crew of which are defecting.

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What evidence do you have for this? As the existence of the independent worlds proves, the Confederation doesn't seem to have any problem with people not being under its control.

Refer to ares1's post, he seems to have summed it up nicely.

**

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As for the Rebellion wanting to "save humanity from a dictatorship," you've got to realise that what different people want in a government is different. For example, many people in the United States don't like the Canadian form of government, but that doesn't mean I would welcome them with open arms if they tried to annex.

**

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Originally posted by ares1:
**Mmm... This debate is getting pretty good...

David, if the Rebellion was not representing what the mojority of people wanted, then there would not be a Rebellion. Take, for example, the Amerian Revolution. It was a fight that begun only because so many people - who were so poorly armed - wanted the same thing. Because the rebellion began with "...pitiful forces...", it was not a group of militants who forced others into believing what they were told.

As for the independant planets... Well, if the confederation was no interested in power, then they should withdrawl their forces and make all planets independant. The fact that they are fighting the Rebellion instead of making peace - which should be very possible. Independant planets likely came to be as such through a series of events that pushed away the largers governments forces, and allowed for them to establish their own militia. Once a planet had its own defenses, the Confeds would possibly not want to takeover, as the indep. planets are usually in strategically useless spots, and the loss of resources in the capturing of the planet would not be worth it.
**

Only a third of the colonists actually wanted to have independence. There were more loyalists than there were rebels.
The confederation was formed to fight the aliens. Perhaps they found it better to stay together than to return to independence.
Who says they aren't trying to make peace? It's much more likely that the Rebels are refusing any peace offer. They, after all, are terrorists.

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Originally posted by a deluded Rebel supporter
You have no good way to support this claim; besides, even if the Rebellion did destroy on a regular basis a lot of defecting warships without telling the person they trust enough to destroy an alien cruiser, the fact that they hire a mercenary pilot, free to tell all what is going on, to just casually knock off whole Confederation warships (repeatedly, I might add), the entire crew of which are defecting.

It is quite likely that that is handled through normal military channels. And it is most certainly classified. And you don't have a need to know.
The entire crew would have been defecting if the ship was defecting. Trust me, a handful of people can not take a ship with them if they want to defect. The crew has to be with them.

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**
The Rebellion does not merely "dislike" the Confederation's form of Government, (BTW, I have nothing against Canada) they hate it, and with good reason. I would not enjoy being a citizen of a tyranny.**

Perhaps heavy taxes and the stripping of resources to a point that people were rebelling can be considered tyranical?

As the intro states clearly, the Confederation was formed to fight the aliens, but the power was no easy to just give up. This points to the fact that the Confederation is still around merely because they have so much power. They serve no other purpose than to do as they please, just because they can.

How do you know that 1/3 of the colonists were Rebels and the rest loyalists? Nowhere does it say that.

You can bet your ass that the Rebels are trying their hardest to obtain galactic peace through diplomacy. Again I refer the the American Revolution, in which the colonies tried for years to peacefully gain freedom from their oppressors before resorting to war. In fact, they resorted to bloodshed only when threatened physically by british soldiers.

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--ares
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Remember that you are a unique individual - just like everybody else.

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Originally posted by spl_cadet:
Originally posted by a deluded Rebel supporter

Oh, this person is mature. I'll sure think about my answers to him!

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It is quite likely that that is handled through normal military channels. And it is most certainly classified. And you don't have a need to know.

If it happens at all. Remember, this is a game. The player of the game is allowed into things that he would not be allowed into if the game was real. These matters would probably be classified, yes- so then why are the 'fed letting you in on it? Because this is a game.

**

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The entire crew would have been defecting if the ship was defecting. Trust me, a handful of people can not take a ship with them if they want to defect. The crew has to be with them.

**

Hmm, this topic is starting to look more like Just Chat. Anyway, in chronological order...

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Originally posted by KaBoomer!!!:
Well, perhaps the Rebellion is shooting at the Confederate Ships (one cannot call them civilian ships, as they are in a government) is because that they, the Rebells, want to trade aswell, as the Confederation seems to command most of the trading.

They most certainly are civilian ships. If you think a luxury liner is a warship, I suggest that you try to complete the alien missions in one. Similarly, if you hail a freighter with a Confederation transponder, you often get a response such as "Greetings from a merchant of the Confederation." Not "Greetings from the Confederation Navy Supply Corps" or anything like that, but greetings from a merchant. The only possible conclusion is that the Confederation transponder on those freighters has no more political meaning than the Ontario licence plate on my car.

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Originally posted by ares1:
The fact that they are fighting the Rebellion instead of making peace - which should be very possible.

The reason the Confederation continues fighting the Rebellion instead of giving it independence is that the Rebellion isn't after independence - it wants control of the Confederation.

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Originally posted by Luke:
No, I'm saying that in the game, regardless of what the governments were telling you, the Rebellion are the good guys, and the Confederation are the bad guys. You make some good points, but they were not what Matt had in mind in those wee hours of the morning with a particular African Gray Parrot- it was his intention, not to persuade you to like the Rebels, but to show you that they are, in fact, the good guys.

My point remains. Which side matches the political philosophy of the game's designer should not be and is not connected to my political philosophy. Oh, and Hector is Andrew's parrot, not Matt's.

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Originally posted by spl_cadet:
Only a third of the colonists actually wanted to have independence. There were more loyalists than there were rebels.

And the loyalists were sometimes treated very badly, even if they didn't act on their opinions.

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Originally posted by ares1:
Perhaps heavy taxes and the stripping of resources to a point that people were rebelling can be considered tyranical?

So they're rebelling because the taxes were too heavy and you're sure the taxes were too heavy because they're rebelling? That logic seems rather circular to me.

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Originally posted by ares1:
As the intro states clearly, the Confederation was formed to fight the aliens, but the power was no easy to just give up. This points to the fact that the Confederation is still around merely because they have so much power. They serve no other purpose than to do as they please, just because they can.

Actually, the continued existence of the Confederation strikes me as much like that of the United States. The colonies hadn't originally intended to form one governmental unit after defeating Britain, which is why they still hold the name "states," which used to be synonymous with "nations." However, after winning their war, they found that perhaps it was a good idea to stay together even though their common enemy was defeated, and it appears the people of the Confederation felt the same way.

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Originally posted by ares1:
How do you know that 1/3 of the colonists were Rebels and the rest loyalists? Nowhere does it say that.

I think he's talking about the American Revolution, not the Escape Velocity one.

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David Arthur
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(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 11-19-2001).)

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The full Escape Velocity intro text, unchanged, but some parts highlighted:
The new age of peace and prosperity was a failure. The discoveries that made faster-than-light travel possible brought us untold riches... and unknown dangers. The alien warships appeared without warning and decimated most of the outer colony worlds within hours. There was no stopping the mysterious alien menace. The Great War was upon us. But we beat them. The human race banded together into a powerful confederation of worlds, whose combined military strength was enough to turn the tide of the War. Within eight years, the enigmatic alien marauders were extinct. But the elite and powerful members of the Confederation were reluctant to give up their power after the end of the War, and began a rule of oppression and tyranny , aided by the powerful Confederation Navy. They exploited the outer colony planets for the benefit of the wealthy Core Worlds, stripping them of their resources and coercing the colonists into forced labor. This reign of terror lasted for fifteen years , then the insurrection began. The outer colonies , weary of the Confederation’s practices of exploiting their land and denying them any representation in the Senate , formed an organized rebellion aimed at destroying their oppressors. In time, their pitiful forces grew, with the help of sympathetic corporations, into a formidable navy. The galactic civil war still rages on, and no end is in sight. For a brave and resourceful starship pilot, the stars are filled with untold opportunities... and unknown threats. After years of serving as the first mate of an ore freighter, you have finally scraped together enough credits to buy your own ship, a small but sturdy cargo shuttle. You begin your journey orbiting the neutral port of Levo, a backwater world of islands and ocean. The rest of the galaxy awaits you, offering great wealth or a quick death. Your actions will decide which. Good luck, Captain.

Notes:
a) This does not show opinions, but cold hard facts.
This is all what actually happened in the game's history.
c) It states, right here, that the 'feds were tyrants and gave the colonies (b)no

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Originally posted by Luke:
This does not show opinions, but cold hard facts.

I would say it shows more opinions than facts. Most of the meaning here is communicated through the connotations of the words, using phrases like "oppressors" and "exploitation" which you've so conveniently highlighted. It would be quite easy to describe the same events in a way which would bias new players towards the Confederation instead of the Rebellion..

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Originally posted by Luke:
It states, right here, that the 'feds were tyrants and gave the colonies no representatiom- I wasn't making this stuff up, dammit.

It says they weren't represented in the Senate. Nowhere does it say what the exact role of the Senate is or how the political structure works. Is Puerto Rico represented in the United States Senate? Guam? American Samoa? Even Washington DC doesn't have any senators. Does this mean that the United States is a tyranny?

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Originally posted by Luke:
All of the outer colonies were getting tired of the 'feds, this is not a group of radical terrorists going against the majority.

A colony is a political structure, not a person, and as such is not capable of holding an opinion or "getting tired." The fact that a colony rebelled does not mean that all or even the majority of its citizens supported that revolution.

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Originally posted by Luke:
The Rebellion didn't lie at all about this stuff.

Since, as I've said before, the intro text is clearly written from a Rebel perspective, I don't see how you can tell.

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David Arthur
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(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 11-19-2001).)

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Originally posted by David Arthur:
I would say it shows more opinions than facts. Most of the meaning here is communicated through the connotations of the words, using phrases like "oppressors" and "exploitation" which you've so conveniently highlighted. It would be quite easy to describe the same events in a way which would bias new players towards the Confederation instead of the Rebellion...

Then do that. Rewrite the intro from a 'fed perspective, if this is aload of stupid opinions that can easily be turned around.

**

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It says they weren't represented in the Senate. Nowhere does it say what the exact role of the Senate is or how the political structure works. Is Puerto Rico represented in the United States Senate? Guam? American Samoa? Even Washington DC doesn't have any senators. Does this mean that the United States is a tyranny?

**

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From the Escape Velocity intro
**The outer colonies ... formed an organized rebellion aimed at destroying their oppressors.
**

And this is the problem. " ** destroying**

David, the tyranny of the Confederation is different from the United States not having senators from certain areas in that the US has very few places that are very small that don't have senate representation, while the Confederation was denying representation to half of the galaxy, while forcing them into slave labor, taking their money and destroying their planets.

How can you say that the intro is written from a Rebel perspective? It looks neutral to me. The most neutral thing in the world - the new, politically-correct history book that I have - clearly accuses Britain of tyranny during colonial times. Just because facts support a particular idea, strongly or not, does not indicate that it is biased. Everything in the world is not 2 sided, and some things are wrong, and other right. The facts do not stradle the fence all of the time.

As for the destruction of "civilian" ships: Anyone who allies themselve with the confederation acknowledges that they are henceforth enemies of the Rebellion, and vice-versa. You cannot befriend a man and his enemy at the same time, at least not if you aren't a fool. Like Luke said, Allies destroyed German convoys in the second world war, even though they were not warships. It is not as if - in war - that anyone who is not a warrior is a neutral party.

For example, if you are in a fist-fight with a man, and his friend has a gun in his hand, and is about to hand it to the person you are fighting, and you know once he has the gun he will shoot you with it, is it not justified to intercept the man bringing the weapon to the enemy who will use it against you? I worded that badly, but you get the point.

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--ares
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Remember that you are a unique individual - just like everybody else.

I'M COMIN' FOR YE, LUKE!

Answering Luke's SOS, I ambeled (sp) over here to check out the topic... THIS IS GREAT! I've read over the old "Best Of EV" poll, but this is a way to express your opinon. My apologies, I'm jumping headfirst into the fray, without reading the better half of the 2nd page.

First of all, I'd like to make it clear that I think Rebels are a cooler government. That doesn't mean they're better, or even more sophisticated. David has a good point- The confeds have their strong areas. They have a thriving economy, and they were kicking pirate butt until the Rebels showed up. They, however, are ruthless warlords who will dominate everything and anything they can get their hands on. One point I'd like to bring up is the infamous, "Enslaving Theoroum." Did the Feds really enslave the rebels? Develop.

I don't have the time to properly join the argument right now due to my preparations for BfS III and more frequent intrusions of this thing called "the real world" (whatever that is ) of late, but one real world historical issue caught my eye as I glanced through the topic.

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Originally posted by spl_cadet:
Only a third of the colonists actually wanted to have independence. There were more loyalists than there were rebels.

Untrue. JQ Adams estimated that about 1/3 were Patriots, 1/3 Loyalists, and 1/3 neutral to the cause. Adams had a propensity for understating his view, however, and most independent historians today think the actual numbers were closer to 2/5 Patriot, 1/5 Loyalist, and 2/5 neutral. Still a substantial number of loyalists, but by no means did they outnumber the Patriots.

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- Macavenger | e-mail: (url="http://"mailto:e-gamerguy1@home.com")mailto:e-gamerguy1@home.com(/url)e-gamerguy1@home.com

Ok, my take is this: The Confeds have much more power than the rebels, have a balanced economy, trade, and a good army. The Rebellion has less power than the Confeds, but support from other smaller groups. The have economy, just not as balnced as the Confeds. Not as much trade because the confeds and a couple companys already have that under complete control. Their army is smaller than the confeds, but has more overall power.

The rebels refused to join the confeds. The confeds then began firing on the rebel planets, probably managing to take one or two. This obviously made the Rebels angry, so they began fighting back. This marked the begining of the civil war. The Rebels began building fleets quite easily, as there homeworlds were attacked, etc. The Confeds had to force the civillians to beleive the Rebels were evil to make them enlist (eg, Hitler, Jews) Of course, The Rebels were defending themselves against a Confed attack. Once the Rebels regained their lost planets, they continued atacking, saying the the attack was unforgiven. The confeds enlisted more, and the War continued. Every once in a while a Fleet would take control of a planet, but usually it would get taken back right away. There isn't much to say from here. Now, if the Rebels do overthrow the Confeds, Then they'd have to get an economy straightend out pretty quickly, or else they'd get hammered by Pirates. I the Confeds won, they'd met more resistance from pirates and maybe even the two other groups whose names I can't remember right now. If they promised to coexist, then I doubt it would last very long, as a renegade troup from one of the side would probably shoot. In my opinion, I think the Rebels are better, since they have a good cause, and are helping the galxy from dictatorship.

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"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and is widely regarded as a bad move"
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The Confederation was created when another force attacked the galaxy, don't forget. All the Rebellion does is suck resources from the colonies to attack the Confederation so that they can become the tyrants and the former 'Feds will initiate another rebellion against the old rebellion(in other words, Empire).

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"Thank you, thank you. Now you're all under arrest!"

***** 1867 posts ***** Anyway, in chronological order...

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Originally posted by Luke:
You yourself made an explanatin of the 'fed government- tell me, in the Senate, how much do the Senators matter?

My explanation is not a canon portion of Escape Velocity, and is intended to represent the political structure as it stands at a point some time after the game, not in the pre-Rebellion times an unspecified number of years before the start of the game

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Originally posted by Luke:
As for your example, that's rediculous, since they all became American territories of their own free will, and they do matter: we don't put them into slave labor, we don't tax them more than the offical states. Their situation is very different form that of the Outer Colonists. And, BTW, why do you hate the US so much?

All the planets in EV joined the Confederation of their own free will to fight the aliens, so I don't see how that's different. And, BTW, I don't hate the United States - my point was that as the US is ~not~ tyrannical, the fact that not everyone is represented in a nation's Senate is not enough to make that nation tyrannical.

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Originally posted by Luke:
Political structures can show "feelings" as a group. The collective opinions of the people in the structures will average out basically the same, in this case the colonies (not "a colony") did indeed "get tired."

How do you know that the opinions are basically the same. Oh, and by the way, if you still think everyone wanted to rebel, I point you to Ursa Minor Beta, where the description says that its membership in the Rebellion is more a matter of location than political sympathies.

While I think of it, I don't agree with your point about Matt Burch seeing the Confederation as bad guys. They may not have been the side he sympathised with, but the Confederation missions aren't written like "bad guy" missions. After all, think of the Voinian string in EV Override. They send the player to wipe out the populations of entire human worlds, and other such things. In contrast, the Confederation missions are no more "evil" than the Rebel missions, and in many cases are even less aggressive - think about the major strings: the Rebels send you to infiltrate and attack the Confederation, whereas many of the Confederation missions are about fending off and undoing the work of Rebel attacks.

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Originally posted by ares1:
How can you say that the intro is written from a Rebel perspective?

Simple. It uses words with negative connotation like "oppressed" and "tyranny" and saying "denied representation in the Senate" rather than "not represented in the Senate". It plays on the feelings of the reader to make them support the Rebellion rather than simply stating the facts and allowing them to make their own decision.

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Originally posted by ares1:
As for the destruction of "civilian" ships: Anyone who allies themselve with the confederation acknowledges that they are henceforth enemies of the Rebellion, and vice-versa.

So anyone who is under the jurisdiction of the Confederation is a Rebellion? I thought the reason you people are saying the Rebellion wants to destroy the Confederation is to "free" the people under its control. This seems rather contradictory.

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Originally posted by ares1:
Like Luke said, Allies destroyed German convoys in the second world war, even though they were not warships. It is not as if - in war - that anyone who is not a warrior is a neutral party.

They destroyed German convoys, but did they go around intentionally shooting at individual German civilians who weren't participating in the war effort?

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Originally posted by Cyber-Dragon:
They, however, are ruthless warlords who will dominate everything and anything they can get their hands on.

What makes you say this? There's a number of nearly defenceless independent worlds they could take over easily if they wanted to, but those worlds remain independent.

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Originally posted by Macavenger:
Untrue. JQ Adams estimated that about 1/3 were Patriots, 1/3 Loyalists, and 1/3 neutral to the cause. Adams had a propensity for understating his view, however, and most independent historians today think the actual numbers were closer to 2/5 Patriot, 1/5 Loyalist, and 2/5 neutral. Still a substantial number of loyalists, but by no means did they outnumber the Patriots.

In any case, the numbers aren't relative to this argument. The point is that they weren't given any real opportunity to voice their opinion without being punished for it.

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Originally posted by Jimbob:
The rebels refused to join the confeds.

Uh, no, all the worlds were originally independent, then they all joined together to fight the aliens, and then, after the war, some worlds rebelled and tried to take control of the Confederation. The Rebel worlds were not a political unit until years after the formation of the Confederation.

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Originally posted by Jimbob:
Of course, The Rebels were defending themselves against a Confed attack.

Again, the Rebels must be the aggressors, or they wouldn't be a rebellion.

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Originally posted by Jimbob:
I the Confeds won, they'd met more resistance from pirates and maybe even the two other groups whose names I can't remember right now.

It seems to me that if the war ended, the Confederation would be able to handle the pirates easily as none of its ships would be busy fighting rebels. As for these "two other groups," I can't answer unless you tell me who you're talking about.

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David Arthur
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(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 11-20-2001).)

When I first started this thread, I was not aware of how emotionally attached some people seem to be to their favourite government!

The only reason I favourize the Rebellion (which I most recently realized that I do) is because that their ships are faster than the Confederate ones, plus that I always enjoy watching the underdog rise and defeat the evil dictators! >=)
Not that there, anywhere, is, from a objective perspective, mentioned that the Confederation is dictatoric - or am I wrong?

Well, I belive it is our mission to decide which government that is the best and that will win. Either by discussions like there or by creating plug-ins or plug-in-follow-ups!

//KaBoomer

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If you cannot say something nice about a man, cut his head off! >=)

JC no got EV, but JC like Rebels better.
(Mr. Moose told me to post this)

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Originally posted by David Arthur:
_* 1867 posts *_

Er... congratulations, I think...

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**It seems to me that if the war ended, the Confederation would be able to handle the pirates easily as none of its ships would be busy fighting rebels.
**

I can't deny that.

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My explanation is not a canon portion of Escape Velocity, and is intended to represent the political structure as it stands at a point some time after the game, not in the pre-Rebellion times an unspecified number of years before the start of the game.

Okay. No one knows the answers to how much power the senators have, so neither of us can use that as an example.

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All the planets in EV joined the Confederation of their own free will to fight the aliens, so I don't see how that's different.

They joined for protection. Then the threat was gone, and they were used as a slave work force and taxed a lot. I don't exactly know why the American island territories joined the US, but we didn't turn them into slaves and raise their taxes.

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How do you know that the opinions are basically the same.

How do you know that their opinions are all totally different?

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Oh, and by the way, if you still think everyone wanted to rebel, I point you to Ursa Minor Beta, where the description says that its membership in the Rebellion is more a matter of location than political sympathies.

Which doesn't mean the entire population wants to join the 'feds- besides, they're Ursa Minor Betans, why would they care about anything but beaches, hotels, and partying?

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While I think of it, I don't agree with your point about Matt Burch seeing the Confederation as bad guys. They may not have been the side he sympathised with, but the Confederation missions aren't written like "bad guy" missions. After all, think of the Voinian string in EV Override. They send the player to wipe out the populations of entire human worlds, and other such things. In contrast, the Confederation missions are no more "evil" than the Rebel missions, and in many cases are even less aggressive - think about the major strings: the Rebels send you to infiltrate and attack the Confederation, whereas many of the Confederation missions are about fending off and undoing the work of Rebel attacks.

The 'feds don't seem like "bad guys" because they obviously want to look like good guys. The Voinians were created by some other guy, they weren't humans- they were barbaric aliens, and the Rebellion has to be aggresive because they're not as strong.

**

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Simple. It uses words with negative connotation like "oppressed" and "tyranny" and saying "denied representation in the Senate" rather than "not represented in the Senate". It plays on the feelings of the reader to make them support the Rebellion rather than simply stating the facts and allowing them to make their own decision.

**

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Originally posted by Luke:
Er... congratulations, I think...

1867 was the year the autonomous Canadian government was established.

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How do you know that their opinions are all totally different?

I don't. All I'm saying is that any people on those planets whose opinions were different probably didn't get much of a chance to participate in the decision-making process.

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Which doesn't mean the entire population wants to join the 'feds- besides, they're Ursa Minor Betans, why would they care about anything but beaches, hotels, and partying?

The question isn't whether as a rebel planet they want to join the Confederation, but whether as a Confederation planet they wanted to rebel, or were forced to because of the politics of their neighbours.

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The 'feds don't seem like "bad guys" because they obviously want to look like good guys.

I thought we were talking more about Matt Burch's opinion with that point, but if in order to to avoid looking like "bad guys" they refrain from doing "bad guy"-like things, in what way can they be considered "bad guys?"

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I don't think ares meant at all that "anyone who is under the jurisdiction of the Confederation is a Rebellion," in fact, what did he say that sounded like that at all?

Sorry, that was supposed to read "So anyone who is under the jurisdiction of the Confederation is a n enemy of the Rebellion?" Read it again with this in mind and maybe it will make sense this time.

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No, but they bombed civilian cities. I don't like it any more than you do, but it's just part of war, not terrorism.

If you bomb a completely civilian target, that's terrorism. War is bombing a target that may include civilians, but is being bombed for its military nature. Merchant freighters operated by Confederation citizens are not inherently military targets.

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The 'feds are busy fighting the Rebellion, and most of the independant worlds have no strategice or economic value, and most of the ones that do are too far away from the core to be worth taking over.

Capturing Kathoon would make it impossible for the rebels to enter Spica or Apollo without passing through Confederation territory, making it relatively easy to capture both those systems in turn. Capturing Arrakis and Pelagon would allow the Confederation Navy to close in on Nemesis, Topaz, Virgo, and Sirgil. All these independent systems remain independent.

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It seems to me that the numbers are often important in this argument, unless you want to say they aren't to avoid some things that hurt your side.

What are you getting at here?

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Now where in the world did you get that idea?

Oh, accounts in history textbooks from people who were beaten up, driven from their homes, etc. because they supported the King, although they hadn't participated in the war in any way beyond having an opinion, that sort of thing...

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David Arthur
(url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")Talon Plugin for the original Escape Velocity(/url)
(url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/mc/")An Upcoming EV Override Mission Editor(/url)

(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 11-22-2001).)