Youch, these debates get hot. Heck, I wish I'd been around since the beginning.

To note one thing (which may have come up, or may not) that I've noticed:

There's nothing to say Confederate ships cost more than Rebellion ships, only that the Confederates sell them at a higher price. There is nothing to say that the Rebels aren't incredibly outnumbered, either.

But anyway, we were at ethics, weren't we? Good debate, may I add. I think I might add my point sometime (if, that is, I can manage to keep on with the EV boards this time), and I'll probably be siding with the Confederation. It's always fun to debate the side you don't agree with. I do it all the time, although it seems not a good idea in B&B...;

...anyway, I'm happy there are more Confed debaters here now. Before, the EV board was just insanely biased.

Esponer

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Word.

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Originally posted by SilverDragon:
There's nothing to say Confederate ships cost more than Rebellion ships, only that the Confederates sell them at a higher price. There is nothing to say that the Rebels aren't incredibly outnumbered, either.

And even if Confederation ships cost more, it's implied that the Confederation has more money.

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David Arthur
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Originally posted by David Arthur:
**Oh, accounts in history textbooks from people who were beaten up, driven from their homes, etc. because they supported the King, although they hadn't participated in the war in any way beyond having an opinion, that sort of thing...
**

What does this have to do with EV?

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1867 was the year the autonomous Canadian government was established.

Ohhhhh... (feels dumb)

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I don't. All I'm saying is that any people on those planets whose opinions were different probably didn't get much of a chance to participate in the decision-making process.

But maybe they did, no one really knows.

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The question isn't whether as a rebel planet they want to join the Confederation, but whether as a Confederation planet they wanted to rebel, or were forced to because of the politics of their neighbours.

As a Confederation planet, I would think they'd want to rebel- being so close to die-hard Rebellion planets, they'd probably be under heavy attacks.

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I thought we were talking more about Matt Burch's opinion with that point, but if in order to to avoid looking like "bad guys" they refrain from doing "bad guy"-like things, in what way can they be considered "bad guys?"

They only refrain from acting "bad guy"-ish when non-'fed people are watching their actions, like the mercenary pilot they hire to destroy the rogue alien cruiser. Plus, have I mentioned that they also send you on missions to destroy Jericon shipping lines?

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Sorry, that was supposed to read "So anyone who is under the jurisdiction of the Confederation is an enemy of the Rebellion?" Read it again with this in mind and maybe it will make sense this time.

So, I wasn't losing my mind, that was a typo...

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If you bomb a completely civilian target, that's terrorism. War is bombing a target that may include civilians, but is being bombed for its military nature. Merchant freighters operated by Confederation citizens are not inherently military targets.

They are only indirectly military targets, but their destruction does aid the Rebellion. The "Merchants of the Confederation" don't move goods for the 'feds, but without them, where would the Confederation's economy be?

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Capturing Kathoon would make it impossible for the rebels to enter Spica or Apollo without passing through Confederation territory, making it relatively easy to capture both those systems in turn. Capturing Arrakis and Pelagon would allow the Confederation Navy to close in on Nemesis, Topaz, Virgo, and Sirgil. All these independent systems remain independent.

The Confederation Navy doesn't need to own the planets to patrol these systems heavily.

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What are you getting at here?

I wasn't "getting at" anything, merely disagreeing with you.

Public opinion on the boards seems to have shifted since the last poll like this...

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Ha! I just remember what I was talking about with the two other groups whose name I forgot: Lethean and Cyndonion.

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Originally posted by Luke:
What does this have to do with EV?

We were talking about whether revolutions can be democratic or not.

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Ohhhhh... (feels dumb)

1867 is the closest thing to a 1776 we have, but Canadian independence was much more gradual than that of the US, so it's hard to give an exact date. However, July 1st 1867 was when the British North America Act was passed, which made Canada a largely autonomous country and established the federal/provincial government we still have today.

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But maybe they did, no one really knows.

Since revolutions are by nature illegal, they can't be carried out through the standard democratic process, so it would be pretty hard to have a revolution that was started democratically.

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As a Confederation planet, I would think they'd want to rebel- being so close to die-hard Rebellion planets, they'd probably be under heavy attacks.

You mean they would want to rebel so that the rebels would stop attacking them? To me, that doesn't sound like wanting to rebel so much as being forced into it.

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They only refrain from acting "bad guy"-ish when non-'fed people are watching their actions, like the mercenary pilot they hire to destroy the rogue alien cruiser.

So, if you never see any evidence that they are "bad guys", why do you believe it?

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Plus, have I mentioned that they also send you on missions to destroy Jericon shipping lines?

The Jericon Corporation is a manufacturer that was under contract to the Confederation, and yet is illegally supplying munitions to the Rebellion. Jericon shipments are carried on Rebel Cruisers. By breaking its contract, allying itself with the Confederation's enemies, and supplying munitions to people who are trying to destroy the Confederation government while using enemy warships to transport this cargo, Jericon has made itself a military target.

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So, I wasn't losing my mind, that was a typo...

I was interrupted while writing that message, and evidently a few words were lost.

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They are only indirectly military targets, but their destruction does aid the Rebellion. The "Merchants of the Confederation" don't move goods for the 'feds, but without them, where would the Confederation's economy be?

Where would the Confederation's economy be? Somewhere similar to where the economy of the United States is without the World Trade Center. I don't consider either to be a legitimate target.

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David Arthur
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Originally posted by David Arthur:
**Where would the Confederation's economy be? Somewhere similar to where the economy of the United States is without the World Trade Center. I don't consider either to be a legitimate target.

**

Well, look at the state America's economy is in now...

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We were talking about whether revolutions can be democratic or not.

Indeed we were.

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1867 is the closest thing to a 1776 we have, but Canadian independence was much more gradual than that of the US, so it's hard to give an exact date. However, July 1st 1867 was when the British North America Act was passed, which made Canada a largely autonomous country and established the federal/provincial government we still have today.

Thanks for the history, they never teach kids much about Canadian independence in American schools.

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Since revolutions are by nature illegal, they can't be carried out through the standard democratic process, so it would be pretty hard to have a revolution that was started democratically.

That is, started democratically, from the point of the ones being rebelled against. Doesn't mean that the revolution is morally wrong.

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You mean they would want to rebel so that the rebels would stop attacking them? To me, that doesn't sound like wanting to rebel so much as being forced into it.

Grumble I wish I could put down my thoughts more clearly in words...

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So, if you never see any evidence that they are "bad guys", why do you believe it?

If you've never been to Singapore, how do you know it exists?

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The Jericon Corporation is a manufacturer that was under contract to the Confederation, and yet is illegally supplying munitions to the Rebellion. Jericon shipments are carried on Rebel Cruisers. By breaking its contract, allying itself with the Confederation's enemies, and supplying munitions to people who are trying to destroy the Confederation government while using enemy warships to transport this cargo, Jericon has made itself a military target.

What about the missions that are always available in Mission Computers sending me to deliver rush shipments to Confederation worlds? Why don't Manta squadrons swoop down on me while I deliver these?

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Originally posted by Luke:
**What about the missions that are always available in Mission Computers sending me to deliver rush shipments to Confederation worlds? Why don't Manta squadrons swoop down on me while I deliver these?

**

Somehow I don't think any of the cargoes in those missions are weapons or military supplies, therefore the analogy is flawed. Moreover, if you do said missions in a Confed ship, Mantas most likely WILL swoop down on you.

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(This message has been edited by God (edited 20-20-6003).)

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Originally posted by Luke:
Well, look at the state America's economy is in now...

I just don't think attacking civilians randomly is an acceptable way to wage war, especially if you're ostensibly fighting for their freedom.

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Thanks for the history, they never teach kids much about Canadian independence in American schools.

That's funny, they teach us all about American independence.

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If you've never been to Singapore, how do you know it exists?

I've seen pictures of it, read about it from multiple sources, and generally seen other evidence of its existence. I have never seen any evidence of wrongdoing by the Confederation beyond the fact that the speaker in the intro text doesn't like them.

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Originally posted by Luke:
What about the missions that are always available in Mission Computers sending me to deliver rush shipments to Confederation worlds? Why don't Manta squadrons swoop down on me while I deliver these?

Because although your cargo is bound to a Confederation world, you aren't a Confederation citizen, and your ship does not carry a Confederation transponder. (It's implied that the player is, at least most recently, from Levo.)

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David Arthur
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Quote

Originally posted by David Arthur:
**Because although your cargo is bound to a Confederation world, you aren't a Confederation citizen, and your ship does not carry a Confederation transponder. (It's implied that the player is, at least most recently, from Levo.)
**

You're still providing vital support to the Confederation.

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I just don't think attacking civilians randomly is an acceptable way to wage war, especially if you're ostensibly fighting for their freedom.

It is not "randomly attacking civilians," it is systematically crippling the Confederation's economy.

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That's funny, they teach us all about American independence.:)

That's because the American government is so wrapped up in itself and its own problems that they don't bother informing us about other countries.

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I've seen pictures of it, read about it from multiple sources, and generally seen other evidence of its existence. I have never seen any evidence of wrongdoing by the Confederation beyond the fact that the speaker in the intro text doesn't like them.

The intro text refers to a time before the Rebellion. The ones the 'feds were doing wrong against (is that grammatically correct?) have rebelled and are now not being done wrong against. Bleh...

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Originally posted by Luke:
You're still providing vital support to the Confederation.

...which shows that what the rebel attacks are not a systematic approach towards injuring the Confederation's economy, making the most likely explanation be that they are attacking civilians in order to cause terror and make people stop feeling safe living in the Confederation.

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Originally posted by Luke:
It is not "randomly attacking civilians," it is systematically crippling the Confederation's economy.

...by attacking civilians whenever they see them. Attacking civilians who are not participating in any war effort for no reason beyond their nationality is not an acceptable way to wage war, even if it does damage your enemy's economy, and especially if you are the aggressor.

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Originally posted by Luke:
The intro text refers to a time before the Rebellion. The ones the 'feds were doing wrong against (is that grammatically correct?) have rebelled and are now not being done wrong against. Bleh...

So in other words, you have an anecdotal account (from someone who seems rather biased and unreliable) that says that the Confederation has been nasty in the past? Even if it's true, it doesn't prove much - many people feel that England was rather nasty to a number of North American colonists during the 18th century, but we don't go around shooting at them.

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David Arthur
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(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 11-25-2001).)

(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 11-25-2001).)

Quote

Originally posted by David Arthur:
**...many people feel that England was rather nasty to a number of North American colonists during the 18th century, but we don't go around shooting at them.
**

We sure as heck used to. Ever hear of the Revolutionary War?

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...which shows that what the rebel attacks are not a systematic approach towards injuring the Confederation's economy, making the most likely explanation be that they are attacking civilians in order to cause terror and make people stop feeling safe in the Confederation.

If they really wanted to attack civillians to create large amounts of terror, they would just bomb Confederation cities and space stations.

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...by attacking civilians whenever they see them. Attacking civilians who are not participating in any war effort for no reason beyond their nationality is not an acceptable way to wage war, even if it does damage your enemy's economy, and especially if you are the aggressor.

Okay, okay, keep your shirt on...

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Originally posted by Luke:
We sure as heck used to. Ever hear of the Revolutionary War?

My point is that events from a long time ago aren't enough to determine today's good and evil.

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If they really wanted to attack civillians to create large amounts of terror, they would just bomb Confederation cities and space stations.

...which would probably require facing all sorts of ground defences. Why do you think they attack civilians, given that, as has been pointed out, they don't attack independent ships (such as the player) that are supporting the Confederation's economy just as much?

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David Arthur
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I see your karma has been raised again- you've almost caught up with Rogan.

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Originally posted by David Arthur:
...which would probably require facing all sorts of ground defences.

If they're the vicious oppresors, why would that be a problem?

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**Why do you think they attack civilians, given that, as has been pointed out, they don't attack independent ships (such as the player) that are supporting the Confederation's economy just as much?
**

Because there's no easy way to tell if a non-affiliated trader is carrying goods to a 'fed planet or a Rebel one.

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My point is that events from a long time ago aren't enough to determine today's good and evil.

The age of tyranny and oppresion that the Confederation had over the outer rim didn't happen that long ago.

IMHO, this debate has lost its flavor. We're just repeating ourselves. We should end it soon.

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Yeah, congrats! Only one more to go until it's 15!

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Originally posted by Luke:
If they're the vicious oppresors, why would that be a problem?

Attacks against ground targets would be more dangerous than attacking inadequately defended civilian freighters.

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Originally posted by Luke:
Because there's no easy way to tell if a non-affiliated trader is carrying goods to a 'fed planet or a Rebel one.

So, how do you know that a Confederation civilian ship is doing anything even remotely related to the economy? For all the rebellion knows, a shuttlecraft could be someone's personal pleasure craft, or it could even be the escape vessel of a master criminal who the rebellion was doing a favour to the Confederation with its destruction. Anyway, I still find it unacceptable or them to attack civilians whenever possible. If you're supposed to be on the side of freedom and justice, you shouldn't be killing people who are in no way involved in the conflict and who haven't done anything more than to try to get from place to place.

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Originally posted by Luke:
The age of tyranny and oppresion that the Confederation had over the outer rim didn't happen that long ago.

I don't know; giving the size and strength of the rebellion, I'd say it's probably been operating for a fair while.

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David Arthur
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Bleh, whatever. I'm tired of this. Let's just wait until the next newbie makes a topic like this.

Good debate, everyone.

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Quote

Originally posted by Luke:
Bleh, whatever. I'm tired of this. Let's just wait until the next newbie makes a topic like this.;)

Fair enough.

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David Arthur
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