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Originally posted by Captain Skyblade:
**Very reasonable answer. But I'm curious: Where did you find the information about the sixteen alien cruisers? I know for sure it wasn't mentioned in the intro text...
**

I remember reading that number at some point. I believe it might mention it in the (Rebel) mission text leading up to the battle vs. the Alien Cruiser. Either way, I distinctly remember it, and I'll look for it if I get the chance.

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Paradigm, Captain of Industry
It's all comes down to your definition:
"Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and don't do it, that's trustworthiness." George W. Bush, as quoted on CNN

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Originally posted by Macavenger:
Realistically, the two are very closely matched in firepower(when upgraded), the Confed can carry a little more stuff, perhaps, but the Rebel's fighters are better.

I personally prefer 50 torpedoes to 4 better fighters (which get massacred by ptoron turrets).

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Originally posted by Macavenger:
**
So, the deciding factor is manuverability, which cleraly goes to the Rebels. The Confederate Cruiser has been fairly accurately described as an 80 year old pig in that regard.:)**

The confed cruiser is very bad for agility, but theoretically, all large space craft sould be. Anyway, agility is only necesarry to a point. For me: if can dodge torps/missiles, and fighters will be shredded by my proton turrets, then I don't need anymore. I would much prefer space above that level. The agility of the RC is way too much than necessary, with a punishment in space.

In summary, for Human V. AI, confed cruiser is better. In AI V. AI, both are equal. In Human V. Human the rebel cruiser is a much better ship.

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Originally posted by Paradigm:
**

Quote

Originally posted by Captain Skyblade:
**Very reasonable answer. But I'm curious: Where did you find the information about the sixteen alien cruisers? I know for sure it wasn't mentioned in the intro text...
**

I remember reading that number at some point. I believe it might mention it in the (Rebel) mission text leading up to the battle vs. the Alien Cruiser. Either way, I distinctly remember it, and I'll look for it if I get the chance.

**

In the confed mission string, Admiral Sykes states, "Remember, dozens of these ships destroyed entire worlds."

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Originally posted by Macavenger:
**Two words: Tractor Beam. That's all. I will wager that I can beat a stock Alien Cruiser with an Argosy with no upgrades other than a tractor beam and maybe Tritanium Armor, even if the Alien has a human pilot. Unless the Alien runs away, which the Argosy can't catch it then, but it will never hope to beat the Argosy that way.

**

Go try that against the AI alien. I dare you (and no cloaking either).

You underestimate humans. Running is perfectly fine for humans-- the player that gets bored first loses. Humans will do things like fire the fusion beam at maximum range, not waste ammo by shooting a big stream of it, and will recall and launch the fighters frequently just to annoy the opponent. I think the human alien pilot will try to blow past the argosy hoping for a split second where the fusion beam is lined up. His momentum should carry him through the expected tractor lock. Perhaps he drops some seekers just before reaching the argosy. The argosy must attempt to match velocity with the alien so the tractor beam gets a chance to work. Several seconds of tractor lock are required to equalize the velocities of the 2 ships.

Other observations:
If you are close enough to use a tractor beam, you are close enough to be hit by recently launched seekers. If you run from the seekers, you will lose tractor lock. This argosy has no speed and maneuverability upgrades. It must work to avoid the fighters. Further, the tractor lock restricts the argosy's ability to evade the fighters. This argosy has no weapon upgrades. Two laser turrets are not going to bother the alien cruiser.

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Originally posted by General Rak:
**Therefore, the Confed Cruiser is the ultimate cruiser one can get (without cheating).
**

Rawzer explicitly included the Alien cruiser. The Confed cruiser is no match for it. Neither is the Rebel cruiser. A maximally equipped Rebel Destroyer has a sporting chance.

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Against the Alien AI, it will be extremely easy to do as I described. Against a human, it will still be quite possible, I think, although ther's no way to test it. The Tractor lock won't take as long as you think, and then the Argosy can just accelerate to it's maximum speed and the Alien is powerless. Even drones wouldn't help because the Argosy is simply faster. The fighters lack the power to significantly hurt the Argosy, and in fact they often miss with their beam when a ship is travelling at speed. As for a human trying passing deflection shots, those won't be effective. The amount of damage inflicted on such a shot would not be cause for concern, and I could easily manuver around an Alien Cruiser for enough time for it to heal. Even though a human would be smarter in coming after me than the AI, the Alien Cruiser is inherently more difficult to handle, and actually turns worse.
The Rebel Cruiser, by contrast, is much harder to defend against. It's fighters are good at tracking ships down, and actually have more effective punch. The Rebel Cruiser has turrets, and so will not fall prey to a Tractor Beam, and it's range weapons are actually worth more than snot, which you can't say for the Alien.

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Almost doesn't count, but barely does.
"The problem with the designated driver program, it's not a desirable job. But if you ever get sucked into doing it, have fun with it. At the end of the night, drop them off at the wrong house."
- Jeff Foxworthy

Even if you were able to do everything you believe you could, you still run very hard into the fact that an argosy simply doesn't have enough firepower to drain an AC's shields. Maybe you could if you got a lot of secondaries, but without them you'd just see the gauge go 100...99..100...99...100...

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Originally posted by magicianeer:
You gotta wonder how the confeds ever defeated the aliens.

Apart from what was said earlier about numbers, you've also got to remember that this alien cruiser has been hiding in the fringes for a couple of decades, and its crew have had nothing to do other than avoid the humans and fiddle around with their technology. I wouldn't be surprised if the alien cruiser that appears in EV is significantly more powerful than the ones that took part in the Great War.

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David Arthur
(url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")Talon Plugin for the original Escape Velocity(/url)

On one hand, that is very possible. Also, human history tends to exagurate things, making it more likely that the crusiers were weaker, and the suprise and devastation made the crusiers seem more powerfull in the eyes of the warriors of that time. The cruiser is an improved version that lives up to it.
On the other hand, what resources would the aliens have had to call upon?
Not much. How much can you fiddle when you have no resources to build stuff with? Not a lot.

-Anatole

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Whee!

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Originally posted by Smasher:
Even if you were able to do everything you believe you could, you still run very hard into the fact that an argosy simply doesn't have enough firepower to drain an AC's shields. Maybe you could if you got a lot of secondaries, but without them you'd just see the gauge go 100...99..100...99...100...

Actually, 2 Laser Turrets is plenty of firepower to wear down an Alien Cruiser's shields. It will take a while, but it can be done. In fact, 1 Laser Turret would be enough, but would take about an hour, real time. Two Turrets will take far less than 10 minutes.

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Almost doesn't count, but barely does.
"The problem with the designated driver program, it's not a desirable job. But if you ever get sucked into doing it, have fun with it. At the end of the night, drop them off at the wrong house."
- Jeff Foxworthy

I like the Confed Cruiser best. While the Rebel may be faster, more manuverable, and I will admit, better looking, I still pefer the Confed because of its superior sheilding and armor. More importantly, I usually feel cramped in the Rebel Cruiser, but the Confed has a huge amount of space once you get rid of the useless neutron blasters.

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Quote

Originally posted by Anatole:
How much can you fiddle when you have no resources to build stuff with? Not a lot.

For resources, they can recycle and/or modify parts of their ship, as well as mining the various uninhabited worlds and asteroids, and perchance even ambushing the odd trader or pirate who nobody will miss. Also, keep in mind that we don't know much about what kind of technology exists inside those alien vessels. They could have all sorts of techniques for construction that the human governments don't know about.

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David Arthur
(url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")Talon Plugin for the original Escape Velocity(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by Macavenger:
**Actually, 2 Laser Turrets is plenty of firepower to wear down an Alien Cruiser's shields. It will take a while, but it can be done. In fact, 1 Laser Turret would be enough, but would take about an hour, real time. Two Turrets will take far less than 10 minutes.

**

Correct. Lasers are the most powerful energy weapon for use against the alien cruiser, the laser cannon in particular. Atleast four laser cannons and two laser turrets would be a perfect outfit for use against the alien cruiser, which would very easilly bring it to its knees (use the corvette...seems to work best).

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~Captain Skyblade

CEO of the Corsair Development Team
(url="http://"http://tmgmedia.net/jpayne")Corsair Homepage(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub57.ezboard.com/bcorsairdevelopers")Corsair Web Board(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/bstarbasedelta")Starbase Delta(/url)

Odd.. whenever I played the alien cruiser missions, unless I had at least four turrets the cruiser's shields kept recharging faster than I could take them down. Wierd.

Quote

Originally posted by Smasher:
**Odd.. whenever I played the alien cruiser missions, unless I had at least four turrets the cruiser's shields kept recharging faster than I could take them down. Wierd.

**

The exposed fire from the four+ laser cannons is what counts. Sure, the turrets are very important, but if the alien cruiser is continually caught by your laser cannons, he goes down in history.

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~Captain Skyblade

CEO of the Corsair Development Team
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Quote

Originally posted by Macavenger:
**Against the Alien AI, it will be extremely easy to do as I described. Against a human, it will still be quite possible, I think, although ther's no way to test it. The Tractor lock won't take as long as you think, and then the Argosy can just accelerate to it's maximum speed and the Alien is powerless. Even drones wouldn't help because the Argosy is simply faster. The fighters lack the power to significantly hurt the Argosy, and in fact they often miss with their beam when a ship is travelling at speed. As for a human trying passing deflection shots, those won't be effective. The amount of damage inflicted on such a shot would not be cause for concern, and I could easily manuver around an Alien Cruiser for enough time for it to heal. Even though a human would be smarter in coming after me than the AI, the Alien Cruiser is inherently more difficult to handle, and actually turns worse.
**

You apparently haven't been hit recently by the alien beam. It is suprisingly powerful. The argosy you described has a top speed of 200. Matching speeds with the alien (top speed 350) will be difficult.

Seeker stats from EV Data weap resources:
Reload: 180
Count: 800
MassDmg: 150
EnergyDmg: 150
Guidance: 2
Speed: 400
<etc>

The Argosy cannot outrun Seekers. It must evade, and will probably lose any tractor lock while doing so. The Argosy with tritanium has 35 shield + 90 armor. Taking the hit to maintain tractor lock may work but 4 seekers (they launch 4 at a time) do 72 damage (18 damage each). 3 such hits and its over.

For comparison, Torpedo stats from EV Data weap resources:
Reload: 180
Count: 800
MassDmg: 150
EnergyDmg: 75
Guidance: 1
Speed: 600

Seekers hurt more than torpedoes. Seekers can be decoyed by the missile jammer.

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Quote

Originally posted by magicianeer:
... Seekers can be decoyed by the missile jammer.

Oooh! Very interesting, magicianeer. That's worth seeing myself.

Do seekers go for the missle flares?

(KK muses, "Now what should my new pilot's name be...?")

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“You will find that we will be either the most loyal and trustworthy of allies, or ... if you insist on trying to swallow us up -- the worst of enemies. The choice is yours. And should you choose to fight us ... don’t bring a knife to a gunfight!!!”

Quote

Originally posted by magicianeer:
You apparently haven't been hit recently by the alien beam. It is suprisingly powerful. The argosy you described has a top speed of 200. Matching speeds with the alien (top speed 350) will be difficult.

I'm quite aware of how hard the Fusion beam hits, I've been hit (and hit back with) 3 of them in concert in the BfS plug I'm making. Also 1 at a time. Minor hits from it wouldn't be a problem.
As for Seekers catching the Argosy, they still can't. Torpedoes have speed 600, yet I can just Outrun them in a Corvette, which is speed 300. It follows that a weapon of speed 400 could be outrun by a ship of speed 200. Besides, I've run from seekers before, and they are apallingly slow.

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Almost doesn't count, but barely does.
"The problem with the designated driver program, it's not a desirable job. But if you ever get sucked into doing it, have fun with it. At the end of the night, drop them off at the wrong house."
- Jeff Foxworthy

Quote

Originally posted by magicianeer:
The Argosy cannot outrun Seekers. It must evade, and will probably lose any tractor lock while doing so. The Argosy with tritanium has 35 shield + 90 armor. Taking the hit to maintain tractor lock may work but 4 seekers (they launch 4 at a time) do 72 damage (18 damage each). 3 such hits and its over.

My experience is that if you're within the Fusion Beam's range, the Cruiser won't fire any seekers. My favourite tactic is to stay behind the cruiser and fire my turrets at him, it's no problem in a Corvette or an upgraded Argosy, just the fighters keep bringing down my shields

Quote

Originally posted by Clueless:
**

Quote

Originally posted by magicianeer:
The Argosy cannot outrun Seekers. It must evade, and will probably lose any tractor lock while doing so. The Argosy with tritanium has 35 shield + 90 armor. Taking the hit to maintain tractor lock may work but 4 seekers (they launch 4 at a time) do 72 damage (18 damage each). 3 such hits and its over.

My experience is that if you're within the Fusion Beam's range, the Cruiser won't fire any seekers. My favourite tactic is to stay behind the cruiser and fire my turrets at him, it's no problem in a Corvette or an upgraded Argosy, just the fighters keep bringing down my shields

**

Precisely how I destroy the alien cruiser. As long as you've got the ship with speed and energy firepower, it can be rather easy to route and destroy the cruiser.

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~Captain Skyblade

CEO of the Corsair Development Team
(url="http://"http://tmgmedia.net/jpayne")Corsair Homepage(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub57.ezboard.com/bcorsairdevelopers")Corsair Web Board(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/bstarbasedelta")Starbase Delta(/url)

Rebel Cruiser. With the manoeverability upgrades, it can kill anything. You bring your lightning or rapier or corvette or defender, I don't care. With a missile jammer, you can dodge missiles, and torps can be dodged anyway (with the upgrades). So you can't touch me.

The Alien Cruiser has some major issues, mostly to do with the lack of turrets and lack of turning.
However, has anyone played... I can't remember the name of the plug-in, but it had the rebel dreadnought in it... a bit like final battle. Anyway, you got access to the rebel destroyer before you went head on with the aliens. And do you knoww what? It was the hardest battle I've ever fought. Seeker drones were much more powerful, the little alien fighters had beams that would quickly take off shielding and the alien cruiser's beam was so powerful that you could only be in the beam for about 5s before your ship was destroyed. Took me about 30 minutes to do that battle. That was the hardest battle I've ever fought, and didn't need turrets on the AC to make it a seriously scary opponent, even with a fantastic ship.

By the by, does anyone know how much armour is added by each of the armour upgrades (Tritanium, durasteel and... er... armaplast?). Just interested

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"This lady needs to be taken to a hospital immediately"
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