The reason you don't see any Rebel freighters is because the Confederacy does sucha good job of destroying them and they are most likely disguised as independant freighters.
/me points at Rebel Psuedo-Freighter
See, they made something to try and protect them.
------------------
"The heathens are upon us. Arm yourselves and go with God." Paul Benden, Commander of the Purple Sector Fleet, prior to the Battle of Cygni.
Quote
The reason you don't see any Rebel freighters is because the Confederacy does sucha good job of destroying them and they are most likely disguised as independant freighters.
I don't think it's possible to destroy EVERY freighter produced by a government. Even if this were true, it would prove that the feds are just as "agressive" as the rebels.
------------------
Go to the Escape Velocity Empire. (url="http://"http://evempire.webjump.com")http://evempire.webjump.com(/url) Post all your stuff and enjoy everyone else's.
Quote
Originally posted by General Rak:
**I say that rebel planets are controlled by the rebels, but governed by independants. You say they are Rebel governed.
What about this- the citizens of the rebellion register independantly so the evil confederation can't get them. But the confederarion forces its citizens to use its codes. That would explain it.
**
Well General Rak, I see that the Rebel posters on this topic have decided you are now their favoirte target to beat up on. After your kind words of welcome to me, I don't want to leave you hanging out there all alone so I will jump back in and give them another target. Perhaps my doing so will take some of the heat off of you.
Except for your use of the word, 'forces', your post is close to some similar thoughts I have had. Perhaps, as one of its regulations, the Confederation requires all shipping belonging to Corporations, Companies and individuals operating from worlds under its authority to carry onboard transponders that identify them as vessels from worlds of the Confederation.
David Arthur, in one of his posts, had similar thoughts to this. He equated it to the maritime practice of having ships fly the flag of their parent country. I find this a not unreasonable policy for a government to have. Doing this makes it easier for the government, i.e. the Confederation, to keep track of the ships from worlds under its authority. Nothing sinister about this, although I'm sure some of our Rebel friends can or will try to think of some.
(Quote) Originally posted by Insano
That just goes to show that the Confeds don't care about their civilians and want them to get killed.
No it doesn't. It makes it easier for other Confederate ships to identify them and come to their aid when they are in trouble. It's the Rebels who don't care about Confederate Citizens. They are the ones shooting at, disabling and/or destroying these merchant ships. I refer to them as Merchant ships because when you hail one of them they respond by saying "Greetings from a Confederate Merchant' or "Greetings from a ship of the Confederation."
I can even see how the Rebellion, knowing the Confederation doesn't go around indiscriminately shooting at ships not having transponders, would elect, as one of their war tactics, not to have worlds they control equip their freighters with transponders that would identify them as coming from worlds under Rebel control. I will even go so far as to suggest that, by their actions, the Confederation occupies the higher moral ground here. Even though it knows, (and even you Rebels will have to agree that it must know), that the Rebels are getting supplies that aid them in their war effort by shipping them on vessels that do not have transponders that identify them with a governmental id tag, it still chooses not to fire on these vessels, even in Rebel controlled systems.
I will now sit back and wait for Macavenger and others to begin tearing into my logic, or non-logic in their view.
------------------
CRH
One thing to say first of all. ChristopherH, you seem very intelligent. Why don't you and David Arthur compare SAT scores? 
Quote
No it doesn't. It makes it easier for other Confederate ships to identify them and come to their aid when they are in trouble. It's the Rebels who don't care about Confederate Citizens. They are the ones at, disabling and/or destroying these merchant ships. I refer to them as Merchant ships because when you hail one of them they respond by saying "Greetings from a Confederate Merchant' or "Greetings from a ship of the Confederation."
The confeds would come to aid any ship being attacked by the rebels. Not just the ones with a confed transponder. And, as I remember, when I was in a merchant ship ferrying things for the rebels, the confeds attacked me. Also, if they are a confed merchant, the rebels don't know what cargo they're carrying. They could just be carrying luxury goods, they could be carrying very important, ly weapons. So, they must destroy the ship.
Quote
I can even see how the Rebellion, knowing the Confederation doesn't go around indiscriminately at ships not having transponders, would elect, as one of their war tactics, not to have worlds they control equip their freighters with transponders that would identify them as coming from worlds under Rebel control. I will even go so far as to suggest that, by their actions, the Confederation occupies the higher moral ground here. Even though it knows, (and even you Rebels will have to agree that it must know), that the Rebels are getting supplies that aid them in their war effort by shipping them on vessels that do not have transponders that identify them with a governmental id tag, it still chooses not to fire on these vessels, even in Rebel controlled systems.
I can see that too. But, I stil don't see how that gives the confeds a higher moral ground. By putting their citizens in more danger? Also, the rebels don't shoot ships without transponders, even in confed space.
------------------
Go to the Escape Velocity Empire. (url="http://"http://evempire.webjump.com")http://evempire.webjump.com(/url) Post all your stuff and enjoy everyone else's.
Insano, I have to differ with your point about the Rebels not knowing what the ships are carrying. In several missions it is possible for the Confeds to scan your ship to see what you are carrying. Why can't the Rebels do this? After all, it is obviously common knowledge that the confeds have the ability to scan your ship.
------------------
(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/shinigami_demon/")Shinigami's Demon:GW Fanfic Archive(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/spl_cadet/")EVN:The Beginning(/url)
(QUOTE)Originally posted by Insano:
The confeds would come to aid any ship being attacked by the rebels. Not just the ones with a confed transponder. And, as I remember, when I was in a merchant ship ferrying things for the rebels, the confeds attacked me. Also, if they are a confed merchant, the rebels don't know what cargo they're carrying. They could just be carrying luxury goods, they could be
carrying very important, ly weapons. So, they must destroy the ship.
Thank you for pointing out this humanitarian act on the part of the Confederation. Oh, but wait, the Rebels attack other ships, not just ones with Confederate transponders? Unless you are referring to the player working for the Confederation during the game or pirates, I donÂ’t think this happens, I may be wrong but I canÂ’t think of anytime I have played seeing this happen.
This also ties in to your remark about the Confederation firing on you when you were flying as a merchant working for the Rebels. First off, thatÂ’s how the game engine works. When you begin working for one side or the other in the game, your approval rating goes up on one side and down with the other. DoesnÂ’t matter what type of ship you are in, if you have a bad rep with one of the two sides, they will begin attacking you. Another way to look at it is that the Confederation has received reports about how you are working for the Rebellion; therefore the word has gone out to all of our ships to add your name to our list of known Rebels/sympathizers. Your own actions have caused the response you now will receive when one of our ships spots you.
(Quote)
I can see that too. But, I stil (Sic) don't see how that gives the confeds a higher moral ground. By putting their citizens in more danger? Also, the rebels don't shoot ships without transponders, even in confed space.
How does not firing on ships without Rebel transponders put Confederate Citizens in more danger? If by this you mean that by making this ethical choice, it has the result of allowing the Rebels to receive the supplies they need and thus prolonging the war, which in turn will result in the loss of more Confederate lives, you are correct. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean a little more if I am missing something in what you have said. However, I still say refraining from firing on ships not clearly marked as one of your opponents, puts you on a morally higher plane than the act of indiscriminately shooting and destroying of all merchant traffic of your enemy, as the Rebels do.
Earlier in your post you implied that Confederate ships would aid any ship being attacked by the Rebels, not just confederate ships, which would indicate the Rebels attack non Confederate ships. . Now you are saying the Rebels donÂ’t shoot ships without Confederate transponders. Which is it? You canÂ’t have it both ways.
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my previous post/s. Now I am going to go see how you and the others are doing in Battle for Sol II.
------------------
CRH
Quote
Originally posted by ChristopherH:
**Thanks for taking the time to reply to my previous post/s. Now I am going to go see how you and the others are doing in Battle for Sol II.
**
Why don't you join? The HC could use another Admiral, especially one as intelligent as you.
------------------
Prepare to succumb to
superior intelligence
Quote
Originally posted by General Rak:
**Why don't you join? The HC could use another Admiral, especially one as intelligent as you.
**
Sorry, but I believe that Pirates have first call on his services. We have 3 Fleets (all shattered) compared to your 5 fleets (2 shattered).
------------------
(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/shinigami_demon/")Shinigami's Demon:GW Fanfic Archive(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/spl_cadet/")EVN:The Beginning(/url)
Quote
Earlier in your post you implied that Confederate ships would aid any ship being attacked by the Rebels, not just confederate ships, which would indicate the Rebels attack non Confederate ships. . Now you are saying the Rebels donÂ’t shoot ships without Confederate transponders. Which is it? You canÂ’t have it both ways.
They would aid any ship IF it were attacked by the rebels. I didn't say it happened. I think you misunderstood me on the point of rebels shooting ships w/o confed transponders. They don't. I hang out in capella a lot and when a manta flies in, it shoots confed luxury liners. Not luxury liners w/o confed transponders.
Quote
How does not firing on ships without Rebel transponders put Confederate Citizens in more danger? If by this you mean that by making this ethical choice, it has the result of allowing the Rebels to receive the supplies they need and thus prolonging the war, which in turn will result in the loss of more Confederate lives, you are correct. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean a little more if I am missing something in what you have said. However, I still say refraining from firing on ships not clearly marked as one of your opponents, puts you on a morally higher plane than the act of indiscriminately shooting and destroying of all merchant traffic of your enemy, as the Rebels do.
What I meant by I see that too was that the rebels would ship supplies in freighters w/o rebel transponders. And, the rebels only fire on ships equipped with confed trasnponders. You win the one about the game engine. But, as most confeds would say, the confeds have better tech than the rebels (i'm not admitting anything) so the rebels might not be able to scan cargo. They also might not choose to because it's an invasion of privacy. Well, maybe anyway.
------------------
Go to the Escape Velocity Empire. (url="http://"http://evempire.webjump.com")http://evempire.webjump.com(/url) Post all your stuff and enjoy everyone else's.
Quote
Originally posted by Insano:
**What I meant by I see that too was that the rebels would ship supplies in freighters w/o rebel transponders. And, the rebels only fire on ships equipped with confed trasnponders. You win the one about the game engine. But, as most confeds would say, the confeds have better tech than the rebels (i'm not admitting anything) so the rebels might not be able to scan cargo. They also might not choose to because it's an invasion of privacy. Well, maybe anyway.
**
I think it may well be time to let this topic slowly sink its way down to the bottom of the topics page and off the screen on our monitors. (Some of you may even say it is well past time!) Therefore I am only going to post a couple of final remarks and then see if there are any other threads/topics I want to participate in. I won't be checking back here, so if anyone responds to what I now post and you want to have me check it out, call it to my attention if/when you see me post something elsewhere.
Insano, thanks for clearing up your points about Rebels and which ships they shoot at, i.e. Rebels don't shoot at ships without Confed Id's, (except pirates, which are target practice it seems for everyone.) I thought you were most likely using the idea that the Confeds would help anyone shot at by the Rebels, to help you try and counter my contention that having Confed transponders on their ships helped the confeds identify their ships and come to their aid. Thats why, also in the first part of my post, I said I didn't think this took place in the game itself, (Rebels shooting at other ships without Confed transponder Ids.)
I brought it up again in the last part of my post because you went on to say towards the end of your post, that the Rebels only shoot at Confed ships. My use of the phrase "you can't have it both ways." probably was not clear as to what I was trying to say. Let's try this: If the Rebels only shoot ships with confed ids, then you can't turn around and use the aruguement that the confeds would help any ship shot at by Rebels, not just confed ones, as a counter to my saying all Confed ships having confed transponders makes it easier for them to identify when one of their ships is in trouble. It doesn't happen, the Rebels don't do this, they only shoot confed ships. Hope that clarifies my point.
About those Luxury liners in Capella; I did some checking in the resources (System dudes, flets and pers). Except for the occassional pers luxury liner that may randomly appear in Capella, the only luxury liners that show up in Capella will be Confed luxury liners, so that is the only kind available to shoot. Therefore, one could say that the Rebels are not really making a decision to shoot or not shoot a luxury liner, its a confed ship so they shoot it.
The next, (and last) post I will probably make on this topic: Which Government is Better? is for Macavenger as it relates to part of a discusion he and I were involved in earlier.
Macavenger: in our discussion about the Raid munitions convoy mission where you are required to take the stolen munitions to a pirate planet, you said that from a logistics/logical standpoint it made sense for the Rebels to do this because the Confeds don't patrol the pirate systems. This was in response I believe to my saying I thought it would make more sense for the person doing the mission to get them to a Rebel controlled planet and therefore helped me justify my suspicions about the motivations for the Rebels having me do this. So I did some checking, by actually starting up the game and flying from confed controlled systems to all of the various pirate controlled bases, Evildrome, New Antigua, Pirates Cove, Pirates Haven. Here's what I found: On the way to all of them, regardless of where I started, I ran into numerous individual confed ships and small to medium sized Confed patrol fleets along the routes. Also, I will give you the point that the Confeds don't patrol the actual systems in which these pirate bases are located, they do however patrol all of the systems surrounding them. In fact, I checked all the systems around the pirate systems and each and everyone had either a single confed gunboat, or a frigate and two gunboats or even in several instances, a Confed cruiser. (I made a list of what type, how many and in which system, but it is at home sitting on the table next to my Mac Powerbook.) Not exactly a safe travel route in my opinion for a ship that has just raided a Confed convoy and is carrying stolen munitions aboard. Another fact is that a Rebel controlled system is at the entry point for all of the unoccupied systems that leads to the pirate controlled systems, except for the one where Lethe is at the start. Even with this one, there are several Rebel controlled systems within one or two jumps of Lethe. So, regretfully, I can't buy into your saying it is safer for the Rebels to have you bring them to a pirate base. While the actual transfer of the weapons from your ship to the Rebels won't take place because no confed ships come into these systems, the fact that they do patrol all of the systems surrounding the pirate bases increases the risk of your being discovered and shot at/boarded on the way. Also, every time I was shot at repeatedly by any and all pirate ships not only in the surrounding systems but in the designated system as well. The Rebels need to work out a better arrangement with the pirates if they are going to continue doing this. (Yeah, I know, its how the game engine works.)
Anyway, no need to respond, I know how busy you are in Battle for Sol II. I just wanted to make these points because I kept forgetting to do so earlier.
I have enjoyed debating this issue with all of you. Except for that one small, minor incident where I mistook something you said, probably because I am so new here and not used to your writing style and phrasing, I have found all of the posters to be polite and striving to keep their thoughts logical and to the point. You are all to be congratulated.
------------------
CRH
