Jeremy's basically right. I made a plug-in with just one system, asteroids at level 2 (fairly low), and had it so that almost always there was 1 Rebel Destroyer and 1 Confederate Frigrate. Not counting times where there wasn't just 1 of each, the results over ten battles were as follows:

Rebel Destroyer wins:
4 times

Confederate Frigrate wins:
3 times

Both manage to knock eachother out:
3 times

As you can see, they are pretty damn close, and the last one (the 4th Rebel one) was very close to being a double knock-out. So stop your bitchin!

But then again, this is for the AI. So for a human pilot, I'd say the Rebel Destroyer is a better buy: it's cheaper, approximatly the same head to head power, and higher speed allows you use more strategy instead of head to head.

If you people want, I'll do the same for Manta-Patrol Ship and/or Rebel Cruiser-Confederate Cruiser.

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-Shade

(url="http://"http://www.crosswinds.net/~shadeofblue/")EV:O Revenge(/url)

(This message has been edited by ShadeOfBlue (edited 02-01-2000).)

Well dude, i think you´ve got some good point here. However, i think that "good cause" is determined by the starting text(the one with the drum-like back ground music). If it had been something more like this:

"Eight years after the great war, the people in the seats of power
inside the confederation realizaed that a major change was needed
to bring the seditious ideas of the outer colonies to a halt. They
disbanded the senate, knowing that they had some agents infiltrated
there. When they were going to begin their pre-empitve strike, rebel forces moved faster, and with new ships designed by deserting ConEx engineers
and old fighters, relics of the great war, they took the system of
Satori by surprise. This was followed by the separation of almost half of the confed planets, and the obvious start of the Galactic Civil War."

etc.,etc.,etc.; then what everybody thinks of "good cause" would be somewhat different.

I would once again have to agree with ElRojo. Which cause is better is more matter of opinion. While the Rebels are ingrained in our minds as a good cause because of movies like "Star Wars" where the power government is being rebelled against really is evil. Whereas, looking back on the intro text of EV, you can really see how the Confederation could also be viewed as a good cause. They are trying to keep the galaxy united against possible invasion from aliens. They simply try to provide for the galaxy's people. We don't know what the supposed injustices done by the Confederation were like, so perhpaps they aren't as evil as some people are led to believe.

------------------
Live long and perspire,
--Marcus B.
The Monkey

Greetings, UE Crusader...you are VERY wrong. The only time that a destroyer beats a frigate is when the frigates first torps miss the destroyer. and even then they ususally only disable each other. also, as stated before, the rebel AI dont dodge, that means that torps hit 'em anyway. Now, on to more political matters. In the storyline, the rebels didnt say to the 'feds "please stop harrasing us, we dont like you." but instead they suddenly attacked out of nowhere. I agree that the rebels fight for a worthy cause, but why fight? why not be diplomatic? oh well, thats beside the point. In galactic scourge plugin i think that confeds rock...in regular EV they are the same.

El rojo wrote:
"Eight years after the great war, the people in the seats of power
inside the confederation realizaed that a major change was needed
to bring the seditious ideas of the outer colonies to a halt. They
disbanded the senate, knowing that they had some agents infiltrated
there. When they were going to begin their pre-empitve strike, rebel forces moved faster, and with new ships designed by deserting ConEx engineers
and old fighters, relics of the great war, they took the system of
Satori by surprise. This was followed by the separation of almost half of the confed planets, and the obvious start of the Galactic Civil War."

etc.,etc.,etc.; then what everybody thinks of "good cause" would be somewhat different.

yeah, and if monkeys could fly we'd all be better swimmers

dude your whole post was so totally pointless that it deserves to be dragged out into the street and shot.

for one, that's not how the storyline is, therefor the rebels are still fighting for a good cause

and no it's not because we've been taught to think that way because of star wars, that's just how humans react...most humans are born good, not evil buddy. so we fight for what is good. and yes, everyone has their own opinion of what is a right cause, but we're not looking at every single person's opinion, we're looking at a general average of all people who have seen this scenario. and i'd think we'd all agree that the rebels are fighting for a good cause, not the feds.

------------------
Jeremy Woodruff as,
THE WHITE SHADOW

A guy named Whrup wrote:

Greetings, UE Crusader...you are VERY wrong. The only time that a destroyer beats a frigate is when the frigates first torps miss the destroyer. and even then they ususally only disable each other. also, as stated before, the
rebel AI dont dodge, that means that torps hit 'em anyway. Now, on to more political matters. In the storyline, the rebels didnt say to the 'feds "please stop harrasing us, we dont like you." but instead they suddenly attacked out
of nowhere. I agree that the rebels fight for a worthy cause, but why fight? why not be diplomatic? oh well, thats beside the point. In galactic scourge plugin i think that confeds rock...in regular EV they are the same.

Greetings Whurp....I am VERY right.

I don't know what you're watching with Fed Frigate/Rebel Destroyer battles, because in every one-on-one encounter I've seen the Destroyer wins unless a lot of ammo hits asteriods or something. But if you read my original post, look at the stats and stop thinking about stupid AI for a second, you will see that the Destroyer is a far better choice. And even if you are of the opinion they are equal, the Destroyer is nearly HALF the cost!

As for AI vs. AI, people seem to think that saying "ah-ha Destroyers can't dodge torpedoes" destroys my argument, but that really isn't true. Again, in EVERY battle I've seen, the Destroyer wins out. So forget that AI argument with me, because I've been there.

UE Crusader

------------------

Nice discusion but
I don't see your problem!
The only thing you've to decide is on which side you play first. It's possible to get both, the confederation and the rebel gadgets. And when you got them you can shoot down everything and get it as escort (and that's why the fed cruiser is the best ship. it has such a big crew that you can capture almost every ship with little escort). You don't need to be liked by anyone.

Manuel

UE Crusader wrote:
**A guy named Whrup wrote:

As for AI vs. AI, people seem to think that saying "ah-ha Destroyers can't dodge torpedoes" destroys my argument, but that really isn't true. Again, in EVERY battle I've seen, the Destroyer wins out. So forget that AI argument with me, because I've been there.

UE Crusader

**

This is all you have said. But would you mind saying why the destroyer wins? It has been mentioned that the frigate has superior shielding, so if all they do is fire every single weapon, why does the frigate keep losing, or at least in the battles you see.

------------------
--------------------
Always loyal
to the Confederation

The reason that I think is the higher turn and accelleration rate of the destroyer, allowing it to turn and attack faster.

------------------
~(^..^)

Jeremy Woodruff wrote:
**El rojo wrote:
"Eight years after the great war, the people in the seats of power
inside the confederation realizaed that a major change was needed
to bring the seditious ideas of the outer colonies to a halt. They
disbanded the senate, knowing that they had some agents infiltrated
there. When they were going to begin their pre-empitve strike, rebel forces moved faster, and with new ships designed by deserting ConEx engineers
and old fighters, relics of the great war, they took the system of
Satori by surprise. This was followed by the separation of almost half of the confed planets, and the obvious start of the Galactic Civil War."

etc.,etc.,etc.; then what everybody thinks of "good cause" would be somewhat different.

yeah, and if monkeys could fly we'd all be better swimmers

dude your whole post was so totally pointless that it deserves to be dragged out into the street and shot.

for one, that's not how the storyline is, therefor the rebels are still fighting for a good cause

and no it's not because we've been taught to think that way because of star wars, that's just how humans react...most humans are born good, not evil buddy. so we fight for what is good. and yes, everyone has their own opinion of what is a right cause, but we're not looking at every single person's opinion, we're looking at a general average of all people who have seen this scenario. and i'd think we'd all agree that the rebels are fighting for a good cause, not the feds.

**

Very well. But at least say some reasons most people would think the rebels are fighting for a good cause without intro text. If you were thrown into the scenario without any briefing, the good guys would be the ones holding Earth. Besides, i never said that was the intro text dammit. it was just a goddamn example of a situation where you would consider the feds as the good guys. last, it ElRojo damn, not El rojo.(kiss my @$$).

AI ships fight in elliptical orbits of a central point between the two, so the turn and acceleration are irrelevant. Turning to attack is made irrelevant by turrets and the homing modules on torpedoes and missiles.

Besides, as soon as an opposing ship enters the system, AI ships turn and move to attack their oppoent, ready long before turning to attack is relevant.

UE Crusader, try to be objective if you are going to back a ship.

True, most humans are born "good", it is still opinion. The Rebels are not necesarily "good guys" and the Confeds aren't necessarily "bad guys". As is indicated by the storyline, since we don't know insinuating circumstances specifically, perhaps the Rebels are "evil" or just misled. They quite possibly have been started by a few fanatics, that were jumping at the slightest chance to start a war.

------------------
Live long and perspire,
--Marcus B.
The Monkey

several things: the turn rate is VERY needed, as for the heavy rockets, torpedoes, and missles aren't generally fired when not facing the target.

------------------
~(^..^)

Jericon wrote:

**If you put a Confed Frigate and a Rebel Destroyer in a fight against each other, the frigate would win. The Destroyer is nothing but a modified Argosy. As for you said 2 out of 3, um... let's see.

**

I have been playing EV for two years, and of all the AI battles I have seen between Frigates and Destroyers I can tell you the Destroyer won a great number of them.

------------------
100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer, take one down, pass it arround, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

Whurp wrote:

**Greetings, UE Crusader...you are VERY wrong. The only time that a destroyer beats a frigate is when the frigates first torps miss the destroyer.

**

Which is like 75% of the time

------------------
100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer, take one down, pass it arround, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

OctoberFost wrote:
** <font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial" color="808BAD">Whurp wrote:

**Greetings, UE Crusader...you are VERY wrong. The only time that a destroyer beats a frigate is when the frigates first torps miss the destroyer.

**</font>

Which is like 75% of the time
**

Exactly, the chance it will hit an asteroid is equal for both, so what your (Whurp) saying, is basically moot point. Also, the destroyer has more torpedos so if one of its hits an asteroid, it still has more than its opponent.

Controlled by AI they're pretty much equal with destroyer at a small advantage, so for the human pilot, the destroyer is much better: lower price, equal torps, and you can better use strategy, as opposed to the AI (thanks to the destroyer's better manueverability).

------------------
-Shade

(url="http://"http://www.crosswinds.net/~shadeofblue/")EV:O Revenge(/url)

"I hate you more than ever Milkman Dan."
-Katie, from RedMeat.

(url="http://"http://www.theonion.com")The Onion(/url)

<font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial" color="808BAD">

**

Very well. But at least say some reasons most people would think the rebels are fighting for a good cause without intro text. If you were thrown into the scenario without any briefing, the good guys would be the ones holding Earth. Besides, i never said that was the intro text dammit. it was just a goddamn example of a situation where you would consider the feds as the good guys. last, it ElRojo damn, not El rojo.(kiss my @$$).**</font>

I'll give you a reason not involving intro text-It calls the Confederates Tyrants in the Palshife Spaceport Bar.

------------------

100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer, take one down, pass it arround, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

(This message has been edited by OctoberFost (edited 02-02-2000).)

ElRojo wrote:
Very well. But at least say some reasons most people would think the rebels are fighting for a good cause without intro text.

And would you please give some reasons people would think the rebels aren't fighting for a good cause?

If you were thrown into the scenario without any briefing, the good guys would be the ones holding Earth.

Sez who? Eh? And I suppose by your argument, if the Earth had been captured by aliens, they would be the good guys? Eh?

Besides, i never said that was the intro text dammit. it was just a goddamn example of a situation where you would consider the feds as the good guys.

Geez. How stupid do you think we are? We've all SEEN the intro text. We can SEE that you said it was an example. We AREN'T that stupid- even if you'd like to think we are.

------------------
-Basilisk-

"Dang! Get my shotgun, Mama! The aliens are after the chickens again."

AIM: EVBasilisk

El GayHoe wrote:
Very well. But at least say some reasons most people would think the rebels are fighting for a good cause without intro text.

i don't need to, but since you ask for them...if there was no intro text, a human would try to get more information on what happened, and if they got the information from the confederation they'd probably be a tad more persuaded to be a confederate...but since we aren't, then we know that the rebels are "good".

El GayHoe wrote:
If you were thrown into the scenario without any briefing, the good guys would be the ones holding Earth.

Yeah as a damn prisoner.

El GayHoe wrote:
Besides, i never said that was the intro text dammit.

then why even put it?

El GayHoe wrote:
it was just a goddamn example of a situation where you would consider the feds as the good guys.

well who cares about other scenarios, considering this is not another scenario, this is the one we were provided with, therefor that's what we base our perspective off of.

El GayHoe wrote:
last, it ElRojo damn, not El rojo.

shutup El GayHoe.

El GayHoe wrote:
(kiss my @$$).

not when your mom is stuck on it, maybe if she'd make some room...

------------------
Jeremy Woodruff as,
THE WHITE SHADOW

Guys (and lady), it's a bloody game.

I'm inclined to agree with UEC, simply because he put up a good, logical, POLITE argument. Unlike most of the other people

Also, it begs mentioning that Matt Burch mostly wrote the game in favor of the Rebs, and has (I think) said that he likes em.

I should also point out that the Rebels in the old EV RPG always were better. The fed's were constantly rude.

Also, Rebels have the feds 'trapped'.

~S~

------------------
There is no limit to what someone can do, as long as they do not mind not getting the credit.

It is impossible to say if that the Rebels are "good" and the Confederation is "evil" without any background. The reverse is also true.

------------------
Live long and perspire,
--Marcus B.
The Monkey