(quote)Kevin Jordan wrote:
**

Have the largest and toughest military

Then why didn't you send them to Vietnam instead of the wimps??<

**(/quote)

(/B)(/QUOTE)

I just have one point to make here. There are a few reasons why we didnt win. One is because we were on the defensive during almost the WHOLE war. We werent allowed to go onto the offensive for a long time. After we were allowed to, we pushed the North Koreans all the way up to the northern border. Then Chinese troops started helping the N. Koreans. General MacArthur got pissed, and wanted to go to war with China, but Truman didn't so he fired him. Another reason was because Americans didn't really care much about the war. They didn't believe in what they were fighting for, it didn't really matter to them if North Korea took over the South and made them communism.
Anyways, I am getting sick of everyone here bad mouthing Americans, it is bull ****. If you don't like us then too bad. Your going to live with us, one way or another.

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(This message has been edited by TooL (edited 03-20-2000).)

Frandall, about the basic level of training thing. Just wondering do you have women in the military? We do and our standards had to be lowered in order to let them in. I have nothing against women in the military but they need to meet the
regular standards. And the autonomous(sp)thing I don't know about today but we did have the ability to have a 5-10 man group on D-Day. got to go finish later

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Pcs? I don't need no stinkin Pcs

Quote

Avenger wrote:
**Frandall, about the basic level of training thing. Just wondering do you have women in the military? We do and our standards had to be lowered in order to let them in. I have nothing against women in the military but they need to meet the
regular standards. And the autonomous(sp)thing I don't know about today but we did have the ability to have a 5-10 man group on D-Day. got to go finish later
**

We do have women in the Australian military, but we do not have women in front-line roles (ie infantry, artillery, spec forces). Everything else is available to women. As for the autonomous (you did spell it right) sections, yes the US did have it during WWII, but you have basically lost it since. The lowest level of training where such self-sufficiency exists is amongst the marines.

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Cold Fusion wrote:
Anyway, after reading these posts and after much thought and thumb-twiddling, I've come
to a sad conclusion - people as a whole are incredibly stupid. Nationalism, racism,
poverty - hell, it's all caused by the general ignorance, apathy, and hateful nature of
humanity in general. Americans are not more stupid on the average than other people -
and we aren't much for doing intelligent things either. Let's all shut up and play EV.

OK, this is totally bogus. I use to stand up for stereotyping, but this is totally wrong. The only reason you supposedly think that everyone is stupid, is because that's all you're paying attention to. Most nice, smart, intellectual people, go by unknown, quite, etc. Evil, mean, stupid people are the ones noticed. Most of the time, I am very nice, smart, intellectual, just like over half of the population.

Don't pretend like you know what you're talking about saying that people as a whole are stupid.

sigh, don't try to be an idealist. Even the most intelligent-seeming of people have a remarkable knack for doing stupid things. Look at what's happened here - we have a bunch of the most prominent and intelligent members of the board snarled into a stupid debate on nationalism and speculating on whether Australia would win a war against the US.

It's only a tiny minority of people who claim to be intelligent and idealistic. A rare few have changed the world, but I think it should be generally accepted that idealism is dead. Machiavellianism is the way of the future and the world today.

So don't even think that you can be pure of greed and corruption. Just play EV.

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"I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."
-Gen. Jack Ripper, Dr. Strangelove

When US paratroops were flown in behind enemy lines they were misdroped because of the inexperence of thet pilots (they were called 90 day wonders)who thought flak was more dangerous than it truly was. But anyway the paratroopers were forced to operate in small groups or even by themselves and they still managed to accomlish most of their goals. Except for behind omaha beach resulting in a bloodbath the next day. Anyway the point of this is that the US does have the ability to produce compentent troops and does still have a few branches that are
very able. The navy seals, The rangers, and the marines are all always very able branches. And if it came down to it china could really create a threat b/c they could throw poeple at their enemeys. Or send so many people into battle that their opposition would simply run out of ammo. This also depends on the fact that the common people could accept heavy casulitys(sp). Which brings me to my next point; that the american public would be unwilling to accept casulitys resulting from a war with china. If you have been watching the news you would know that taiwan is declaring indpendnce from china and the US has agreed to defend taiwan in the case of war. This I do not agree with; I think that the US should stay out of this and let it hanlde it themselves. I think the in general should try to stay out of other countrys buisness and get down to the important issues like surging oil prices. It is 1.75$ a gallon where i live. Also for all those Austrailians out there, I bet there is more to do down there than where I live.
I am done with my rambling for now.

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Pcs? I don't need no stinkin Pcs

So, Avenger, you like the good old Monroe Doctrine policy of non-interference. Not that I'm saying it's bad, it was the cornerstone of American foriegn policy for a long time. Do you think we shouldn't have gotten into the Gulf War then? I know a lot of people said we went into that war to save money on gas rather than to save Kuaitees, and that has some truth to it, but if we didn't go into the war, Saddam would still be in control of the 4th largest army in the world. That would pose a threat to everyone, not just the Middle Eastern countries.

Some people also say we are becoming the world's police. With that I disagree. We don't get involved in alot of countries disputes (like China's eviction of 2 million people out of their ancestoral homelands just so they can build the 3 gorges dam), but when along comes a major threat to democracy like Saddam, we step in. And when atrocites like the Holocoust and the Bosnian "purge" by the Serbs happens, we do the right thing and interfere. I'm not going to make it sound like our leaders are doing all of these things out of the goodness of their hearts, I'm not that naieve. Alot of it has to do with re-election votes and underhanded deals with other countries or corporations. But whatever the reason, America's policy of stepping in to help the less fortunate is good. My brother was in a tank in the Gulf War, and he was poisoned by Saddam's chemical weapons. He gets seizures even today. But he still belives we did the right thing in stopping the man who could have been the next Hitler.

By the way ColdFusion, explain to me why you think the future's politics will be like Machavelli's descriptions. I mean, Machavelli talked about how kings should rule with an iron fist in "The Prince", be feared but not hated. There aren't any more kings or supreme rulers in democratic power today(unless you're thinking about fascism of communism). What do you mean by that?

Well, I guess this topic won't die, but maybe I can steer it in a new direction. At least that would be more interesting than international flaming, for whatever purpose. Oh, and I'd like to clear up that I never said anyone was making any fight threats, I said it just sounded like that. It was a poorly placed example.

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(This message has been edited by Pikeman (edited 03-21-2000).)

Quote

mikee J wrote:
**Capitalism, as I have realized, is NOT the root of evil. Nor is any form of free market and money-exchange bad. Money is not the problem, it's greed. Money is good in that you don't have to waste time agrueing over how much some little thing is worth, heck.. imagion trying trading your goods at the grocery store!
**

Fair enough Greed would probably have been a better choice of word
But as a system based purely on greed it Does constitute much of the worlds evils (and I'm not talking about basic monetary exchange but Rather a 'Free' Market)
But I suppose theres not really any other way possible at the moment.
And as a member of the tiny fraction of the world who is privelaged enough to enjoy at least some of the rewards unfairly reaped by this system you might say I don't have anything to complain about....
well do I?

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'Stormbringer!' he cried and then the hellsword struck his chest. H e felt the icy touch of the blade against his heart,felt his body constrict,felt it sucking his soul from the very depths of his being,felt his whole personality being drawn into the Runesword.
[mailto:jr.watkins@virgin.
net](http://mailto:jr.watkins@virgin.<br />
net)jr.watkins@virgin.
net

Good obversation pikeman. My whole point here was to change the subject. Well anyways I am not against the gulf war but mainly the vietnam war the korean war and any war that endangers american lives without any benifit to the US. The gulf war was good because if we had not stopped Saddam Hussien he would be firing nukes at us right now. However I do belive that the US is the policeman of the world. Look at how many countrys we have men stationed in right now. Somalia, Kosovo, and many others.(I just can't name them right now)Whether the US was put into this situation or took the job on in purpose is antoher story. While I do belive that the US should have stayed out of some wars, it also is needed in its role of policeman otherwise most of the middle east would be at war right now causing really high gas prices.

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Pcs? I don't need no stinkin Pcs

cold fusion wrote:
sigh, don't try to be an idealist. Even the most intelligent-seeming of people have a remarkable knack for
doing stupid things. Look at what's happened here - we have a bunch of the most prominent and
intelligent members of the board snarled into a stupid debate on nationalism and speculating on whether
Australia would win a war against the US.

It's only a tiny minority of people who claim to be intelligent and idealistic. A rare few have changed the
world, but I think it should be generally accepted that idealism is dead. Machiavellianism is the way of
the future and the world today.

So don't even think that you can be pure of greed and corruption. Just play EV.

oh, so you're saying that the inteligent people, that on rare occasions do stupid things, are now stupid? wrong, because of human nature the percentage of "stupid" things done in a day can be very high and still have the person not considered stupid. in other words, i still stand behind my argument that people are not stupid, we may be humans, but not stupid. and no, this debate is not stupid, it's the people that bring of stupid false points like yours that are stupid. (yeah, i was very repetitive with the word stupid)

a rare few change the world eh? now you've totally changed the subject. what do you consider changing the world? i think brushing my teeth changes the world. and just because you're smart, doesn't meen you have to "change the world", it just means you can process information given to you, use it in a regular routine, etc.

Quote

ColdFusion wrote:
**sigh, don't try to be an idealist. Even the most intelligent-seeming of people have a remarkable knack for doing stupid things. Look at what's happened here - we have a bunch of the most prominent and intelligent members of the board snarled into a stupid debate on nationalism and speculating on whether Australia would win a war against the US.
**

I don't think anyone has been arguing that. I think the only discussion is what cool toys and schtuff that Australia and the US has.

Its been my long-standing view that intelligence doesn't really exist. Is it knowledge? Wisdow? Problem solving? Being sly? Honestly, some people are really intelligent in that they can screw a rocket scientist into buying something stupid. So who is more intelligent?

There were many things Einstein sucked at, including language. Physics and mathematics was the only thing he was intelligent on. Intelligence, like time, is completely relative.

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RIP THE SYSTEM!

Quote

mikee J wrote:
**There were many things Einstein sucked at, including language. Physics and mathematics was the only thing he was intelligent on. Intelligence, like time, is completely relative.
**

Actually, Einstein wasn't god's gift to mathematics either (he knew his way around an equation, and was more capable than most, but he certainly was not a mathematician). Can't argue with the physics though.

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Quote

Frandall wrote:
**Actually, Einstein wasn't god's gift to mathematics either (he knew his way around an equation, and was more capable than most, but he certainly was not a mathematician). Can't argue with the physics though.
**

Actually I believe he was only good at the more "complex" part of mathematics, mostly areas like physics (math and physics are almost the same and interchangable all to often...). He was great at higher level mathematics... kinda like me =), though I kinda suck at when you have to break it down and work from there... ugh

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Tear it down

well i consider myself very intelligent soviet.

more intelligent than about 99 percent of the people i have met, and i've met a lot of people. i analyze a lot more than people, realize things a lot more than people, and well, maybe i'm not smarter than people, maybe people that are "stupid" are actually smart, and just don't show it. so us "smart" people don't realize their true inteligence. ugh, this sh*t is so confusing :frown:

Quote

Gandalf wrote:
**Hmmm.... Let's see....
I am Scottish (Clan McLachlan), Dutch, and French (Hugenot).
I was born in Bloemfontein, South Africa (and moved away in political protest).
Now I live in Canada.

**

Part of the "chicken run" eh".
Political protest is a euphemism for sh*t scared!

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Quote

TooL wrote:
**I just have one point to make here. There are a few reasons why we didnt win. One is because we were on the defensive during almost the WHOLE war. We werent allowed to go onto the offensive for a long time. After we were allowed to, we pushed the North Koreans all the way up to the northern border. Then Chinese troops started helping the N. Koreans. General MacArthur got pissed, and wanted to go to war with China, but Truman didn't so he fired him. Another reason was because Americans didn't really care much about the war. They didn't believe in what they were fighting for, it didn't really matter to them if North Korea took over the South and made them communism.

**

You have just given us another reason why you got your butt kcked in Vietnam.
Your army was in Korea, the wrong friggin country!

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Quote

Pikeman wrote:
**So, Avenger, you like the good old Monroe Doctrine policy of non-interference. Not that I'm saying it's bad, it was the cornerstone of
**

Oh migawd! Don't they teach you anything at American schools?
The Monroe Doctrine was NOT Isolationism.
Diametrically opposite, in fact.

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Quote

Kevin Jordan wrote:
**

Quote

TooL wrote:
**I just have one point to make here. There are a few reasons why we didnt win. One is because we were on the defensive during almost the WHOLE war. We werent allowed to go onto the offensive for a long time. After we were allowed to, we pushed the North Koreans all the way up to the northern border. Then Chinese troops started helping the N. Koreans. General MacArthur got pissed, and wanted to go to war with China, but Truman didn't so he fired him. Another reason was because Americans didn't really care much about the war. They didn't believe in what they were fighting for, it didn't really matter to them if North Korea took over the South and made them communism.

**

You have just given us another reason why you got your butt kcked in Vietnam.
Your army was in Korea, the wrong friggin country!

**

He is talking about The Korean War seeing how:
A) Truman was in office during the KOREAN WAR, not Vietnamese... that was Kennedy through Johnson
The Koran war was fought a decade before Vietnam, during Truman's administration... I believe it only lasted 3 years...
C) MacArthus was the Supreme Commander of the UN forces in the KOREAN WAR, not the Vietnamese
D) He was talking about KOREA, not Vietnam
E) Korea is no where NEAR Vietnam and would be a long trip through CHINA to get there via land

...I think he is just confused on his war history. I don't see how you have the right to critize seeing how you weren't able to pick up on his mistake as well...

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Tear it down

I, Gandalf wrote:
Hmmm.... Let's see....
I am Scottish (Clan McLachlan), Dutch, and French (Hugenot).
I was born in Bloemfontein, South Africa (and moved away in political protest).
Now I live in Canada.
etc.
POINT: Travel as much as possible. We can all learn a lot from other countries.

Quote

Kevin Jordan wrote:
Part of the "chicken run" eh".
Political protest is a euphemism for sh*t scared!

No.
My parents actively protested against Aparthied for decades. For DECADES, they put up with the following:
Having every letter that we received being cut open already, and having every letter that we send be already cut open on arrival...
Someone arriving once or twice PER WEEK to "fix the phone" at my aunt's apartment...
Arriving home from a concert to find the Secret Police making a telephone call from your own living room...

Scared? No. More like D*MN sick and tired of the lack of privacy.

But you know what they did fear? My sister and I growing up in a racist indoctrinating school system, and then MANDATORY military front line duty for me. And believe me, you did not come back from that racist training the same person. I am really glad we moved before that came along....

But I know that since we left things have grown increasingly violent, and are now downright frightening. HUNDREDS of police officers die down there....

What do I miss? The ocean, the heat, the animals, the insects, the fruit trees (in our backyard alone we had peaches, plums, nectarines, apricots, pommegranites, three kinds of grapes, figs, strawberries, pears, oranges, lemons, and liquarte) and our pool.
And we were "middle class"...
Yes, that country grew rich on a lot of cheap labour.... horrible. Really horrible.

I'm glad things are changing down there (slowly but surely).

But I love my new snowboard up here in Canada! And my new plug-ins for EV, "Mugabi and Destiny" and Mugabi and Destiny... for her" (5.1 M) are nearly done!!!

And please, let's NOT get into a discussion of racism.... I need to spend my time on my plug-ins....

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Mace means no.

(This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited 03-24-2000).)

To all of you people who live in America, hate America, and think it "sucks", I have this to say to you:

Why the HELL do you bother living here if you claim to hate it? If you can't find one Goddamn ounce of patriotism and national pride in yourself, you don't have to be here and the nation sure as hell won't miss you.

I know, move to Communist China. Or Russia, that place is huge and in shambles. Or anywhere in Africa, Cuba, and most of third world Asia. I'm sure you'd like it in any of those places much better. Go live in one of those places a year, then you can come back here and tell us how much better it was over there.

If you claim to hate America then don't live in the nation you hate, go to some other place when you are able if you think the U.S. sucks so much. Good luck finding a place that gives you the freedoms this one does.

You know, in a lot of countries saying negative things about a country in public will get you arrested and hauled into prison. In America you can say practically everything you want until your face turns blue, its called free speech. Its a damn shame that so many Americans take it for granted, along with all of the other rights they enjoy here.

So if you think it sucks here, go try it in one of the many places I've mentioned (which consist of about half the planet, FYI). Just be sure to post back here and tell us how much better it is over there.

You guys know what sucks the most? Apathetic Americans who haven't a clue how blessed they really are. Maybe Coldfusion's right on that count, maybe most people are inherently stupid.

UEC

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