first off i'd like to say hey ed! (it's Kirby) second, i want to do this punches ed WAKE UP! now that i've done my mini-flame...

i recently d/led avara and found that i also had been unfairly banned, and (as ed and many other ppl can confirm) i hadn't even played for a year or 2. but do you see me ranting and raveing all over this board? no! i was waiting for you to finish arguing with andrew before i brought my situaiton up. i decided to intervine because it looks to me like you are treading a thin line of NEVER being able to get back on the tracker. having said that, i am on your side, ASW made a mistake and should unban you and give you an apollogy (spl i know, i don't really care =P). but you are COMPLETELY asking the wrong way. flameing ppl is not the way to do it, it just makes you look like the kind of person that WOULD crash ppl and therefore rightly receive a ban. you need to calm down, this isn't like you. yes, ASW did something wrong, but your being a jackass about it. be polite and level headed and i'm sure andrew will unban you and publicly say sorry, he really isn't THAT bad.

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"There is no spoon." - Neo

<< you need to calm down, this isn't like you. yes, ASW did something wrong, but your being a jackass about it. be polite and level headed and i'm sure andrew will unban you and publicly say sorry, he really isn't THAT bad. >>

That's the thing though...

You acknowledge ASW did something wrong, they still haven't. If Andrew said to me "We know we made a mistake, we ask that you calm down while we try to fix it" I'd shut up. I don't have any reason to be here other than getting unbanned. Frankly though, if I shut up about it they won't do anything. Keep in mind I was quiet about it for 2 months and nothing got done. I sent E-mails, nothing got done. So when I came here, yelled about it and flamed people for it, things started moving. Now you're telling me I should stop doing the only thing that actually creates progress? Not a chance. I have nothing personal against Andrew, but remember, this is his job we're talking about...that's a business matter. There are football players who tackle each other every other week and can still be friends away from the field. I'll apologize for my actions here if it means something. It's just that the last time I was nice about this, nothing happened. That's all.

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Quote

**
(snip)last post(/snip)
**

yeah, i don't think you should stop, just tone it down a little

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"There is no spoon." - Neo

Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**That's the thing though...

You acknowledge ASW did something wrong, they still haven't. If Andrew said to me "We know we made a mistake, we ask that you calm down while we try to fix it"
**

Ummm, Edgar, he did say that. Seems like you chose to ignore it. And please, don't start a semantical debate...

Quote

Originally posted by Andrew:
Your behavior here on this web board hasn't exactly strengthened your case, but at least unlike "Missile Man", you've been appologetic about your transgressions, and we'll be equally apologetic if there has been a mistake in banning you -- and you will be unbanned with alacrity.

Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**
I'd shut up. I don't have any reason to be here other than getting unbanned. Frankly though, if I shut up about it they won't do anything. Keep in mind I was quiet about it for 2 months and nothing got done. I sent E-mails, nothing got done. So when I came here, yelled about it and flamed people for it, things started moving. Now
**

You've got the wrong impression of the result of your (and others) actions on this board. What you caused was a reaction to your actions - it was not any action to get you unbanned.

You may have emailed ambrosia 2 months ago - that doesn't mean anyone moderating this web board knew about it. As I stated to you on the server - that's a problem we have to take a look at and ask ambrosia to alert the moderators here when any actions are taken regarding the tracker.

Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**
you're telling me I should stop doing the only thing that actually creates progress? Not a chance. I have nothing personal against Andrew, but remember, this is his job we're talking about...that's a business matter. There are football players who tackle each other every other week and can still be friends away from the field. I'll apologize for my actions here if it means something. It's just that the last time I was nice about this, nothing happened. That's all.**

(Taz!'s Opinion below)
The whole matter of "did Ambrosia do something wrong" is a matter of perspective.

From Edgar's point, they did something wrong because he was (in my opinion - based on the facts I know) unfairly banned - and the status of that banning fell through the cracks here. The only response I can offer is to try and correct the situation so it will not happen again.

From the perspective of person who was crashed unfairly - Ambrosia did the right thing by banning someone from the tracker who crashed a player.

From the perspective of the person who actually caused the crash (and getting Edgar banned) - they got off scott free as far as I can see. Edgar - has that person apologized to YOU?

From my point of view - since I was raked over the coals for a couple hours here for something I knew nothing about - I would say I deserve an apology from all those involved that night- but forget it. I don't need it, and I would really doubt your sincerity at this point. Most of you involved that night have lost credibility in my book. Do I think you care what I think? Nah- not in the least. But- at least I'm able to say I tried to deal with it the best I could. Can you say the same?

What's the lesson here? If you come charging in here like a bull in a china shop - people are just going to shoot you down, or tie you up until you calm down (or just ban you from the board for a while). If you come in here asking in a polite manner (regardless of the time already spent fuming about it) you stand a better chance of getting a faster result that will be more appealing to you.

Edgar - please email me at some point.

gzr(at)hawaii(dot)rr(dot)com

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This signature is funny. Please read it again.

(This message has been edited by Taz! (edited 12-14-2001).)

<< From the perspective of the person who actually caused the crash (and getting Edgar banned) - they got off scott free as far as I can see. Edgar - has that person apologized to YOU?

From my point of view - since I was raked over the coals for a couple hours here for something I knew nothing about - I would say I deserve an apology from all those involved that night- but forget it. I don't need it, and I would really doubt your sincerity at this point. Most of you involved that night have lost credibility in my book. Do I think you care what I think? Nah- not in the least. But- at least I'm able to say I tried to deal with it the best I could. Can you say the same? >>

As to the first paragraph, as I've already said...yes. Both Sphinx and Missile Man have admitted to crashing Yo! before and have posted that they did so on the board. I don't know when this one occurence was, so I'm not sure which one of them it was, but they've both said they've crashed him before. And they've been telling you this asking you to unban me because I didn't do anything.

The whole matter's been cleared up. Sphinx/MM crashed Yo!, I didn't do anything. They didn't get off scot free, they're both banned, justice has been served when it comes to this matter.

The only injustice is why I'm still banned. Why can Yo! go crying to you guys and get what he wants and more but when I try the same, I get attacked for being aggressive and uncivil?

You guys have done your job as well as you could...a report came in saying I crashed someone, you took action. Fine.

But you've now found out I didn't crash Yo! and therefore my banning was unjust. So you take action and unban me as soon as possible? No, and you say it's because I'm crying about it to you guys.

So here's the deal...

I did nothing wrong, Yo! said I did, I was given no chance to defend myself, I was punished

You did nothing wrong, I said you did, you HAVE been given a chance to defend yourself, you go without punishment.

You think I don't feel a little mistreated?

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Quote

Originally posted by Taz!:
**From my point of view - since I was raked over the coals for a couple hours here for something I knew nothing about - I would say I deserve an apology from all those involved that night- but forget it. I don't need it, and I would really doubt your sincerity at this point. Most of you involved that night have lost credibility in my book. Do I think you care what I think? Nah- not in the least. But- at least I'm able to say I tried to deal with it the best I could. Can you say the same?
**

Taz!, you're not my favorite moderator, but I didn't attack you because of the recent events because I have been around these boards and know how it works. They didn't. They saw you as something of an employee of Ambrosia's and someone who would (and you really should be informed about these things) know about what happened and possibly even responsible for it. They didn't know the position of the moderators at these boards. So, try not to hold it against them.

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Knowledge is power, but ignorance is bliss.

(quote)Originally posted by EdgarHons:
As to the first paragraph, as I've already said...yes. Both Sphinx and Missile Man have admitted to crashing Yo! before and have posted that they did so on the board. I don't know when this one occurence was, so I'm not sure which one of them it was, but they've both said they've crashed him before. And they've been telling you this asking you to unban me because I didn't do anything. (/quote)

I have to disagree with you in the last part. They (and you) have not asked, you've demanded. You can rushing in, spamming the board, disrupting other boards, not to mention the nasty things that was typed.

No- asking was never there.

(quote)Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**
The whole matter's been cleared up. Sphinx/MM crashed Yo!, I didn't do anything. They didn't get off scot free, they're both banned, justice has been served when it comes to this matter.

The only injustice is why I'm still banned. Why can Yo! go crying to you guys and get what he wants and more but when I try the same, I get attacked for being aggressive and uncivil? **(/quote)

Stop mischaracterizing other people's actions and deal with what YOU did here. I'm quite certain no one cried to ambrosia.(/B)(/QUOTE)

(quote)Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**
You guys have done your job as well as you could...a report came in saying I crashed someone, you took action. Fine.

But you've now found out I didn't crash Yo! and therefore my banning was unjust. So you take action and unban me as soon as possible? No, and you say it's because I'm crying about it to you guys.**(/quote)

Once again - the characterization is wrong. You did't cry- you wrecked - disrupted. After acting like a jackass you want a bit of justice. I'm STILL saying you were banned for the wrong reason - but you seem to keep wanting to separate the two actions - and I for one cannot do that yet.

(quote)Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**

So here's the deal...

I did nothing wrong, Yo! said I did, I was given no chance to defend myself, I was punished

You did nothing wrong, I said you did, you HAVE been given a chance to defend yourself, you go without punishment.

You think I don't feel a little mistreated?

**(/quote)

I think I've already made my position on this subject clear.

Once again - Edgar email me.

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This signature is funny. Please read it again.

Quote

Originally posted by Defender:
**Taz!, you're not my favorite moderator, but I didn't attack you because of the recent events because I have been around these boards and know how it works. They didn't. They saw you as something of an employee of Ambrosia's and someone who would (and you really should be informed about these things) know about what happened and possibly even responsible for it. They didn't know the position of the moderators at these boards. So, try not to hold it against them.

**

No- the only thing I hold against them is:

1. Failure to read and abide by the guidelines for posting to this web board.

2. Acting in the manner they did.

Their actions reflect how they will be treated.

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This signature is funny. Please read it again.

<< I have to disagree with you in the last part. They (and you) have not asked, you've demanded. You can rushing in, spamming the board, disrupting other boards, not to mention the nasty things that was typed.

No- asking was never there. >>

To be perfectly honest, I didn't demand anything either. I said I didn't even really want the tracker back, but it'd be convenient if it was given back to me. Only thing I could have demanded was that the system change.

But anyways, you bring up a valid point...asking.

When I was banned, let me remind you, I was not asked whether or not I truly did crash Yo!, but lo and behold, I've still come here and given you an answer.

So sure I may not ask for the tracker back, but it'd be nice if you returned the favor and gave it back anyways.

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Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**To be perfectly honest, I didn't demand anything either. I said I didn't even really want the tracker back, but it'd be convenient if it was given back to me. Only thing I could have demanded was that the system change.
**

That isn't true. You demanded to be unbanned (several times). You insulted me (several times). You insulted other Ambrosia employees (several times). You also then demanded an apology from us.

And I'm sure your sitting there, scratching your head, wondering why it isn't forthcoming...

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Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Quote

Originally posted by andrew:
**That isn't true. You demanded to be unbanned (several times). You insulted me (several times). You insulted other Ambrosia employees (several times). You also then demanded an apology from us.

And I'm sure your sitting there, scratching your head, wondering why it isn't forthcoming...

**

i hate to admit it, but he's right ed...

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"There is no spoon." - Neo

<< That isn't true. You demanded to be unbanned (several times). You insulted me (several times). You insulted other Ambrosia employees (several times). You also then demanded an apology from us. >>

I have insulted you, I have insulted Ambrosia employees, and I did also demand an apology if you see it that way. But I just looked through every post I've made so far on this board...

I never demanded you to unban me, never.

Go and find the posts when I did, go and find the post. Quit lying about me, I never demanded to be unbanned, never. Copy and paste it, please.

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Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**I never demanded you to unban me, never.
**

"I see you're posting now...are you gonna be able to help me get unbanned?"
"just please unban me and give me an apology."
"THATS THE IP, LET IT BE FREEE!"
They are the few nice requests.

However every other rant was about your ban and the injustice of it all and how wrong every other person that you thought was a ASW imployee was. That was the "demanded" unban statments, it was preaty much a unban me or face my wrath etc. thing. And since you say you will carry out and try to kill the board kamikaze style now, then good bye and good riddance,

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Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv'

<< "I see you're posting now...are you gonna be able to help me get unbanned?"
"just please unban me and give me an apology."
"THATS THE IP, LET IT BE FREEE!"
They are the few nice requests.

However every other rant was about your ban and the injustice of it all and how wrong every other person that you thought was a ASW imployee was. That was the "demanded" unban statments, it was preaty much a unban me or face my wrath etc. thing. And since you say you will carry out and try to kill the board kamikaze style now, then good bye and good riddance, >>

...Those are demands? The first is a question, the second is a plea (And I'm not even sure it's in the right conext) and the last was a joke.

I didn't deny ranting about the injustice...and saying they'll feel my wrath is a threat not a demand. Can you please find me a demand cause that's what I asked for.

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Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
I didn't deny ranting about the injustice...and saying they'll feel my wrath is a threat not a demand. Can you please find me a demand cause that's what I asked for.

A threat is a demand that outlines what you are going to do if your demand isn't met.

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"My guitar gently weeps." George Harrison, 1943-2001

<< A threat is a demand that outlines what you are going to do if your demand isn't met. >>

It's not. A threat is just a choice. They could either unban me or have me spam their board. That's a choice, completely different from a demand.

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Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
It's not. A threat is just a choice. They could either unban me or have me spam their board. That's a choice, completely different from a demand.

c'mon, that's just nonsense. If I walk up to you and tell you that I'm going to beat the **** out of you if you don't give me $100, that's both a threat, and a demand. You're not being intellectually honest.

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Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Quote

Originally posted by EdgarHons:
**It's not. A threat is just a choice. They could either unban me or have me spam their board. That's a choice, completely different from a demand.

**

Exactly. You're demanding that you be unbanned, or else you will spam the boards. Of course, spamming the boards will get you nowhere, since you will be banned from the webboards, too, and probably completely ignored by anyone who has any say in unbanning you.

You're lucky that I'm not Andrew. I would have banned you from the boards long ago, and demanded that you apologize to me before unbanning you from the boards. Once that happened, I would ask you to post the apology publicly, and then, I would have started even talking about the possibility of you being unbanned from the tracker. You seem to think that you hold some sort of power, which is a delusion. Don't be an idiot, and you may get unbanned at some point.

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"My guitar gently weeps." George Harrison, 1943-2001

Them being baned isn't stopping them from getting onto servers, fyi. So, if anyone is feeling any type of sorrow on any of there parts, please don't. They go onto the holine server, "Avaraline" (hl.avara.org), and ask others to scan the tracker for them. Then they get an IP list from there friends and join whatever server. I know this because I used to help them. Now that they are being complete and utter ****heads, I've stopped helping any of them whatsoever. I suggest, to any other people who have any sort of dignity at all, to not help them in the least. To do so would only be helping them avoid the very "punishment" they deserver. When they deserverd it may be argued, but it is definite from what has been said on here that they all deserve it from this point on.

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-Kyle "Vader" Blessing
-May the force be with you
Websites: (url="http://"http://www.MeteorArts.com")Meteor Arts(/url), (url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/clanns/")Clan NS(/url)

(This message has been edited by Vader (edited 12-18-2001).)

<< You're lucky that I'm not Andrew. I would have banned you from the boards long ago, and demanded that you apologize to me before unbanning you from the boards. Once that happened, I would ask you to post the apology publicly, and then, I would have started even talking about the possibility of you being unbanned from the tracker. You seem to think that you hold some sort of power, which is a delusion. Don't be an idiot, and you may get unbanned at some point. >>

That's why you're not Andrew. He knows how to do his job. The only power I do have is the power to come on here and whine and complain all day, so I do it. Frankly I find ranting here more fun than Avara sometimes.

I'm not mad at anyone, I know Andrew did as best as he could, as best as anyone could when it came to my banning given the system used. I just don't like the system. I also don't like you.

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