I have a question (several, actually) -- when a publisher releases a game, do you feel that they owe you, the players of that game, updates to the game in perpeptuity?

How many updates do they owe you for the money you paid for the original game?

Do they owe you more than a bug-free version of the game as it was originally presented?

Do they owe you continual support/updates without you paying any more for this?

Do they owe you a sequel to the game, no matter how well the original did?

Do they owe you a sequel even if the original author of the game is not interested in doing that himself?

Do they owe it to you to release the source code to the game as open source?

Should a game developer/publisher ignore financial motivations (and thus possibly face bankruptcy or at least a weak business model resulting in less captial for the next project) in order to appease their customers in the above scenarios?

I'm curious where people think the line is drawn... what you expect to get for your money.

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Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.

I say you DO own them if they paid for the game! holds back profanity I have been a supporter of Ambrosia (only there good games, not that other crud), but they way you are treating my favority game (Avara, duh) I"m tempted to reffer people elsewhere for there games... I"ve gotton like 3 people to register a few games, and while me and a few of my friends may now support your whole company, think about how you reply to this message. You say the wrong thing, I'll make sure everyone see's you screw up... post links on every board... and tell every hotline server that carries your games... I think you can get the idea... Anyway, yes to all those questions...

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First I was a learner,
But now I am the master

Kyle "Vader" Blessing

He was just asking a QUESTION. Sheesh.

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"The impossible is easy; it's the unfeasible that poses a problem."

Jeez, Vader, Andrew has a good point, you can't expect them to spend all their money and time on older games, as opposed to making new ones. I mean, You paid for the game itself, as it was when you registered, not paying for upgrades/sequels etc.

------------------
It is an important and popular fact that things are not always as they seem. For instance, on planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent that dolphins, because he had achieved so much-the wheel, New York, wars and so on-while all the dolphins had ever done was muck around in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man-for precisely the same reason.
-HTTG

The number one oxymoron of all time is:
Suspenseful music, suspenseful music
Microsoft Works

Well if you wanna know why I'm a wee bit pissed off, go to the ALD Forums (you can find a link at (url="http://"http://www.avara.org)")www.avara.org)(/url) and then into the seciton "AfterShock", then into the conversation entitled "The Future". It's about the Avara 2 project that Symbiote Software has started. Naturaly (bieng on the team that is making it) I'm taking the side of GR (GrassRoots) entirely. But YOU can decide who is right if you bother to go there. But then maby you all are like Ambrosia... You might not care about avara... oh well...

------------------
First I was a learner,
But now I am the master

Kyle "Vader" Blessing

Hi Andrew...

Going to go point by point here:

Quote

Originally posted by andrew:
**I have a question (several, actually) -- when a publisher releases a game, do you feel that they owe you, the players of that game, updates to the game in perpeptuity?

How many updates do they owe you for the money you paid for the original game?**

I feel a company owes me an update if some change in the platform prevents, or inhibits, the game from being played. Like the change in OS9 that created the strange effect in some of the walls of some levels.

I was pleased with the response I got from Juri in this regards, and pleased that Ambrosia got the fix out and available so quickly.

Beyond that, if a company finds an improvement that is easily included, they should consider doing it.

Quote

Do they owe you more than a bug-free version of the game as it was originally presented?

Yes, any bugs found after release should be taken care of. While beta-testing is probably going to catch most of them, you will never have a wide enough testing audience like the general public.

However, if some major change in system or hardware precludes making the game work without a major rewrite, then you should be able to choose not to do it.

Quote

Do they owe you continual support/updates without you paying any more for this?

No, addtional features that didn't make it into the original product that you deem you needed to remove because of time/cost restrictions could be an upgrade option, but I feel you should be able to charge for these additional features, unless they were advertised in the original plans for the game.

If you said I'd be able to fly in Avara, and then release it without me being able to fly, an update to allow me to fly should be free (or less than 10% of the original cost.)

However, I personally believe in the subscription finance method. I pay you $20 for the product. You invest some of that money into the game, and to cover your overhead. This is assuming you clear your "break even" point in that first year. After one year, I pay you another $20 to get the upgrade to the product. This continues until either: a. I stop subscribing because I no longer use the product; b. You stop the product because of lacking sales.

Userland Frontier works this way. UBB also has this option I believe. I've never heard it attempted with a shareware game, but I believe it could be worked out.

Quote

Do they owe you a sequel to the game, no matter how well the original did?

No. Not at all. Those of you reading this who think otherwise, you need to go work for yourselves, and deal with customers who demand outrageous things beyond the contract from people who do work.

Quote

Do they owe you a sequel even if the original author of the game is not interested in doing that himself?

Only if the original author permits it, even to the extent he has final go/no go decisions for release. The game was their vision , and that vision should not be compromised, unless they are willing to give up that vision - in some form of compensation, or through releasing the code to open source.

Quote

Do they owe it to you to release the source code to the game as open source?

The "they" here you're referring to would be you (Ambrosia) and Juri?

Juri has already stated he would be willing to release the code to open source if a suitable "wrangler" could be found. Since I do not know the background of the arrangement between Ambrosia and Juri, I would not want to speculate (like others have -erroneously I might add) on the reasons why this hasn't happened.

From what I know of the situation, Ambrosia added a significant part to Avara. If that is true, Ambrosia should be part of the decision to release that code, or to withhold it if they (ambrosia) deem it necessary - example would be if the game included parts of code Ambrosia developed that they use in other games, or would use in other games.

Quote

Should a game developer/publisher ignore financial motivations (and thus possibly face bankruptcy or at least a weak business model resulting in less captial for the next project) in order to appease their customers in the above scenarios?

No. Never. I want Ambrosia to continue to make great games, and to continue to be successful. However, I do believe companies need to communicate their position clearly, especially when a group of customers voice a question concerning an upgrade.

I believe even a short "It is not under consideration at this time" might have reduced some of the arrogant and insensitive shouting concerning the "Avara 2" situation.

Personally, I feel all those who are demanding an improvement should just move on to another game. Avara is a distinct type of game - an archetype if you would - even if it is similiar in some aspects of game play to some of the other mechanical warrior games. There is just so many ways to create that type of game/view, they are all bound to be similiar in some ways.

Quote

I'm curious where people think the line is drawn... what you expect to get for your money.

I expect a working, bug free game. I got that for the $20 I spent on Avara way back in September of 1996(??), and much more. I found a game I enjoyed while getting blasted by better players. I found other players who share many of my views and outlooks, and we became friends - and met people from all over the world. I had to learn much about networking and network playable games, and what effects them.

I found a certain joy of helping create levels for the game I play, and putting them out for others to enjoy. Hell, I even enjoy the months (yes months) of beta-testing Cowboy and I would go through before releasing a level set.

Personally, I got way more than my $20s worth.

Thanks for your attention... back to work here.

(This message has been edited by Taz! (edited 06-22-2000).)

(This message has been edited by Taz! (edited 06-23-2000).)

clap clap clap

Finally someone who can actually answer questions and not just start flames.

Densak

Well said Taz!. In no way do threats or other lashings out from other members of the community fully reflect appreciation and thanks for such a great game.

(I wish there were more players from the past present to back that point of view up)

Quote

Originally posted by Vader:
**I say you DO own them if they paid for the game! holds back profanity I have been a supporter of Ambrosia (only there good games, not that other crud), but they way you are treating my favority game (Avara, duh) I"m tempted to reffer people elsewhere for there games... I"ve gotton like 3 people to register a few games, and while me and a few of my friends may now support your whole company, think about how you reply to this message. You say the wrong thing, I'll make sure everyone see's you screw up... post links on every board... and tell every hotline server that carries your games... I think you can get the idea... Anyway, yes to all those questions...
**

And then later continued with:

Quote

Well if you wanna know why I'm a wee bit pissed off, go to the ALD Forums (you can find a link at www.avara.org) and then into the seciton "AfterShock", then into the conversation entitled "The Future". It's about the Avara 2 project that Symbiote Software has started. Naturaly (bieng on the team that is making it) I'm taking the side of GR (GrassRoots) entirely. But YOU can decide who is right if you bother to go there. But then maby you all are like Ambrosia... You might not care about avara... oh well...

Well Vader, I read the entire thread on "The Future" at avara.org, and personally I think GrassRoots should do whatever he feels he needs to do, but if he does not first consult with a trademark lawyer about copyright infringements and "brand damage", he is naive. I speak from personal experience in this matter, and it is nothing I would ever want to have to be a witness to ever again.

The "static factor" in the talk on that whole discussion board is rather too high for my taste. In my experience from my cruising through there from time to time has always been a bunch of whining from people who think the world is somehow "owed" to them because years ago they bought a game.

There is no "side" to take - it's a legal issue.

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When you're right 90% of the time, you can disregard the other 3%

Taz!, we know what we are doing. And there is no way that Ambrosia will be able to do a thing about it. Besides, do you think we are stupid or something? We have a person who works (in real life, yes) for a copywrite/trademark place. And if Ambrosia wanted to do something about it, why didn't they do somehting about MechWarrior? A "idea" can't be owend... If we want to make a game where you are a machine that can walk that carry's grenades and missiles and guns, then we will... and why speak in Ambrosia's defence? I dont know if you work for them or something, but really why? have they ever cared about this product? have they ever once lifted a finger to try to make a sequal happen? have they ever even THOUGHT of making one? From what I have seen...no. Symbiote Software CARES about Avara's existance. We will make an "avara2", even though it wont be an Avara 2. I once thought you would be all for this taz...guess itmes have changed...

-Kyle "Vader" Blessing

Vader you are being emotional...

Let's be reasonable. Remember that Avara has generated very little money for Ambrosia. You expect them to put their resources into a product that may lose money? You expect this because you paid 20 dollars for the original product? I think we all agree, including Andrew, that Avara is a great game. However, just because something is "great" does not make it successful.

We all clearly see the potential of Avara as a game. If only all those jerks (ok - one emotional comment) who played Avara for years had registered, then we might not be having this conversation. We who have spent hundreds (probably thousands) of hours playing Avara know it is the best game ever. We all want to see an Avara 2.0.

Flaming Ambrosia because Avara 2.0 hasn't happened is a waste of time. In fact, flames in general are a sign that the author might still be in Junior High (mentally or physically) and that their comments should not be taken seriously. If you want Ambrosia (or Andrew) to listen try creating a rational argument for why Ambrosia should create Avara 2.0:

-------
Andrew,

Ambrosia should develop Avara 2.0. Everyone who has ever played Avara, knows that it is a great game. Look at the loyal following Avara has created. I for one would pay 30 or 40 dollars for a major update to Avara.

Why should you develop Avara?

1. Multiplayer games are becoming more and more successful.
2. Avara is a great place to meet people – an online community (the update should encourage a community atmosphere).
3. Avara is a game that requires skill that can be developed for years.
4. Avara is a game with endless variety.
5. A multiplatform Avara would sell better in the larger environment.

(Alright guys let’s make this list longer)

There are obviously several things that should be changed to make Avara 2.0 more profitable. First, it should be crippled so that people cannot play endlessly without paying. Second, from a financial standpoint, it should run on multiple platforms, increasing the potential market. Third, it should be marketed. Having a great game will get you nowhere if nobody knows about it.

Andrew, start on online survey to see how many current Avara users would pay for an Avara 2.0 update. Advertise the survey on the tracker. I know at least 20 people of the top of my head that would purchase a major Avara update. Then imagine selling Avara 2.0 in a multiplatform environment. You KNOW Avara is a great game. Avara 2.0 can be a financially viable game. Give Avara 2.0 a chance.

I am not asking for anything free. The 20 dollars I spent for Avara should earn me no major updates. I am asking you to consider developing what you know is a great game. Many of us feel that Avara was the best 20 dollars we have ever spent on a game.

The reason we are witnessing this frustration is that clearly Ambrosia has been dragging its feet. Be honest with us. If Avara 2.0 has no chance at Ambrosia, tell us and our discussion is over. If you are considering creating the game, tell us and we will all be happy. Better yet, involve those of us that are interested. We have played Avara for countless hours. We know what makes it the game it is...

Jeff Caldwell (Cowboy)

------------------

Ok Vader, time for some dissecting. I haven't done this in quite a while, but you deserve this...

Quote

Originally posted by -Vader-:
Taz!, we know what we are doing.

Who is the "we" Vader? As far as the discussion I read- you whined to get into the group, adding no real skills other than whining on countless postings about Ambrosia. Oh- I get it- you're the group Whiner. Congrats, it seems you've reached the pinnacle of your worth. The Peter Principle strikes again. BTW, if you don't get any of these references, ask your Mom or Dad.

Quote

And there is no way that Ambrosia will be able to do a thing about it. Besides, do you think we are stupid or something?

I cannot comment on what Ambrosia can and cannot, nor will or will not do in the future. The second question causes me to pause.... No- I don't think all of the people involved in the group are stupid- I've only seen stupidity on your part, Vader. You've proven that for me.

Quote

We have a person who works (in real life, yes) for a copywrite/trademark place. And if Ambrosia wanted to do something about it, why didn't they do somehting about MechWarrior? A "idea" can't be owend... If we want to make a game where you are a machine that can walk that carry's grenades and missiles and guns, then we will...

Good to hear you may have someone who may know what they're doing.

However, you're entirely WRONG about an idea not being owned.

I don't know much about MechWarrior. Never played it. Know it came out around April of 1996, earlier than Avara was released, but much after work on Avara started. Then again, Mechwarrior was probably started a long time before it was released also.

But, from what I know about it - MechWarrior is a simulation game. I don't now about the rest of the players of Avara, but Avara does not feel like a simulation game to me. Never did. MechWarriors are supposed to be huge (in their scale) while Avara HECTORs are barely higher than normal human height.

Quote

and why speak in Ambrosia's defence? I dont know if you work for them or something, but really why?

Why speak in Ambrosia's defense? Because if ignorant whiners like you who go spouting misinformation, or just like to type with all the fury of a housewife scorned beause they didn't get the full discount with their coupons at the grocery store. Because I don't think you have a shred of respect, nor the ability to comprehend what it takes to start a small business, make it profitable, and then continue to produce products for a varied audience. Then, they even provide a way to communicate with their customers with the web boards, but to top it off the president of the company takes the time to answer people like you.

And no- I don't work for Ambrosia. I do even better Vader - I VOLUNTEER to help Ambrosia by helping with the Avara site. Weird eh?

I have to really stop here and commend Andrew for his diligence and fortitude to put up with some of the things on this and other boards. I know I'm failing to uphold that same attitude in this response. I hope he can understand my frustration... anyways, now that the formaldehyde is working again on Vader's corpse, let's continue...get out your magnifying glasses, because here comes the coup-de-grace, and the particle of brain being smashed is so small...

Quote

have they ever cared about this product?

More than you've ever shown... I know- you're going to respond that they never created that Avara sequel that you demanded, right? That's how you're going to prove that they've ever cared for this product?

Quote

have they ever once lifted a finger to try to make a sequal happen? have they ever even THOUGHT of making one?

I see that small part of your brain is still stuck on this concept that they OWE you a sequel to a game they have repeatedly reported was the second worst selling game for the company. It doesn't matter if you believe this or not, Vader.

Oh- and to tell the truth, your other comment about you and your buddies "supporting your whole company (ambrosia)" by registering - what was it - three whole games - give me a break. What would that amount to - maybe $50? $80 total? I bet that doesn't even cover the utility bill for one month for the electricity for the web server and tracker machines. Bet it doesn't cover the cost of feed for Hector.

Let me ask you this-and I really hate to give you a chance to reply here, but I hope you will actually stop and think before you do respond-but I doubt you will...

Do you help Ambrosia? Do you think you should help Ambrosia? Did you ever politely remind unregistered players to send in that mere $20 to support Ambrosia and Avara? Do you continue to play with unregistered, and hacked players?

Quote

From what I have seen...no. Symbiote Software CARES about Avara's existance. We will make an "avara2", even though it wont be an Avara 2.

I can't answer if "you" or Symbiote Software cares about anything, let alone will actually produce something other than a bunch of posts on various web boards. I do wish those who attempt to create any original idea from scratch the best of luck though...

Quote

I once thought you would be all for this taz...guess times have changed...

And you fail to understand something Vader. Gee, I was going to say something profound like "Time always changes", but that would probably have elicited another comment from you, and I really don't want to break you down again. Actually, you can respond all you like. I will not answer on this subject. I've said all I want here and now (and probably too much.)

You see, I do want to see an updated version of Avara, but I understand Ambrosia's point of view. I understand the reason why an Avara 2 from Ambrosia may not happen.That's all there is to it. You fail to grasp that simple concept. Avara has fulfilled it's need. It's complete. It had it's time, and while it is still breathing life now and then on the tracker, it probably will never be as popular as it was when it was first introduced.

Get over it. Get past it. Move on - or stay around, enjoy what you have, and help recruit new Avara players.

If I've offended anyone other than Vader - that was not my intent. I am purely and simply fed up with this notion that a sequel is due anyone.

That's it for me... next subject.

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When you're right 90% of the time, you can disregard the other 3%

(This message has been edited by Taz! (edited 06-24-2000).)

(This message has been edited by Taz! (edited 06-24-2000).)

Great way to attack the problem and not the person Taz, really. If you could understand Vader's animosity about the situation, I think you would've given him a little less cross-examination, and more support.

The reason why Vader posted his opinion about Ambrosia and Andrew in general, is because Andrew decided to get some free pr by posting screen shots on an exclusive board at avara.org. Out of all the subjects on the board, he goes straight to "The Future" and comments "that might be a mistake :)" in reply to explanation to a game that is being developed. He then proceeds to post urls to an interview and screen shots of his "terrainal engine". If we all had wanted to see his "great" engine, we would've asked. But knowing before-hand, that Avara didn't make money for them, nobody bothered to mess with Ambrosia about a game similar in conceptive respect. Those of which being; "robots", "war", "weapons", "networked gameplay". There are no specifics being taken from any product published by Ambrosia Software Inc, or any other company for that matter. If you really want, Andrew, you may receive a free copy of the game to show your attorney.

Personally, if Ambrosia wants to waste money filing a copyright suit against me or anybody else, that sounds great. Question is, after there is no evidence of any copyrights being infringed apon, would I want to file a counter-suit? This whole thing has been blown out of proportion, and I don't think Andrew understands that coming onto a board and posting screen shots will get him any place.

In reality, nobody cares if Ambrosia sells the source code, makes an Avara 2, or turns it into another arcade game. But when you start spouting the possibility of it, on an exclusive board, people are going to be angry. Anybody would, you don't go to your competition's commercial shoot to try and persuade the producers that your company is better. I didn't come on this board and start advertising the possibility of a new game made by me or anybody else, so what gives Andrew the right to do so on another?

------------------

Um. Vader's animosity is obviously unfounded, that's why Taz! made a reply as such--I don't think Taz! wants Vader's accusations and claims to run away unanswered.

Again, your message demonstrates an obvious bias towards Ambrosia shows as you attack Andrew for merely posting screenshots of something HE feels can be used in a sequel. Instead of seeing his post as a gracious offer to convey the idea to the community that the engine that Ambrosia has can be bent or adapted into "A2," you proceed to bite his head off. I for one believe that Andrew is not apathetic or greedy to the point that you portray and want others to believe.

The question is, why have you proceeded to treat Ambrosia as the company that "doesn't care" and "doesn't support" Avara? It's not Andrew's fault that he wants to make you aware that there are alternatives, by posting on "The Future" thread at the a.org forums. I think you're assuming here GR, that "The Future" thread actually tacitly is "GrassRoots's Avara 2 Announcement" rather than what the topic states it is--which is a discussion on the future of Avara.

And by the way, I for one would be delighted to hear if Ambrosia "sells the source code, makes an Avara 2, or turns it into another arcade game." Heh, you don't have any right to speak for the community whether if they care or not. I'm appreciative that he posted screenshots and told us that this might be a way for a sequel to the game.

Vader said____
lifted a finger to try to make a sequal happen? have they ever even THOUGHT of making one? From what I have seen...no. Symbiote Software CARES about Avara's existance. We will make an "avara2", even though it wont be an Avara 2. I once thought you would be all for this taz...guess itmes have changed...

Hah, do you even know what you're talking about? How many times have you conversed with the people that brought you the game you've been playing for all these years and gone through their thought process in making new versions or even sequels? None. You're talking out of your ass because you're mad that you can't get an "A2." Don't even suggest Taz! as if he's a bad apple...that's so lame.

Ok, GrassRoots' turn:

Quote

Originally posted by GrassRoots:
Great way to attack the problem and not the person Taz, really. If you could understand Vader's animosity about the situation, I think you would've given him a little less cross-examination, and more support.

If Vader had shown one shred of that understanding that you're commenting I should show him, he would not have posted all the verbage he's posted already. My previous post was not attacking Vader, rather Vader's views and how he presents himself. If he chooses to spew forth disinformation, and one sided views about a situation, I have a right to present the other viewpoint, and to disprove the erronious one.

Show him support? Support for what? Get a firm grip...

Quote

The reason why Vader posted his opinion about Ambrosia and Andrew in general, is because Andrew decided to get some free pr by posting screen shots on an exclusive board at avara.org.

Umm. RIght. Exactly where does it state that the web board of avara.org is "exclusive"??Go ahead and continue distorting the facts to satisfy your situation. You know, that is a sign of delusional behavior.

PR? On the avara.org board? Man, now I know you're over the edge. Send us a postcard, will ya?

Quote

**Out of all the subjects on the board, he goes straight to "The Future" and comments "that might be a mistake:) " in reply to explanation to a game that is being developed. He then proceeds to post urls to an interview and screen shots of his "terrainal engine". If we all had wanted to see his "great" engine, we would've asked. **

I dont think you actually read the whole thread. You guys brought up Ambrosia, and how you didn't want "to deal" with them - whatever context that was meant in. The "that might be a mistake" was in reference to that. Then, directly after that, someone asked about upgrades to the program and specifically openGL rendering.

Andrew even posted that someone sent him the URL, so him getting there and reading it is no real mystery, and his wanting to post there is no "posting on an exclusive" board. Sheesh...

And no, it's very clear from your comments on avara.org's webboard you would have never asked to see the engine, because you would not have known about it until he posted the URL to the interview where he did mention it.

I snipped endless dribble about Ambrosia, and then it continued...

Quote

**... In reality, nobody cares if Ambrosia sells the source code, makes an Avara 2, or turns it into another arcade game. But when you start spouting the possibility of it, on an exclusive board, people are going to be angry. Anybody would, you don't go to your competition's commercial shoot to try and persuade the producers that your company is better. I didn't come on this board and start advertising the possibility of a new game made by me or anybody else, so what gives Andrew the right to do so on another?

**

You post was in a heading called "The Future", not "New game from GrassRoots". It was posted on a web board specifically for the avara community, and more importantly, anyone who chooses to post there can.

Usually people who are serious about working on a new project do not go posting their intentions on a public board. I sincerely hope what you're working on is not vaporware. I wish you good luck for whatever you work on, and will wait to see if it peaks my curiosity if and when it actually ships.

Somehow, I seriously doubt it will peak my curiosity. Avara AfterShock didn't. I don't mean that as a slam against AfterShock either. I just felt it was not as balanced play as Avara. Now that the latest version is out, I'll probably grab it and re-evaluate it again. But, the balance of play in Avara is one of the foundations for the game, and is a big part of the reason I still play it.

And that's it from me concerning GrassRoots. Movin on. Story over.

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When you're right 90% of the time, you can disregard the other 3%

(This message has been edited by Taz! (edited 06-24-2000).)

(This message has been edited by Taz! (edited 06-24-2000).)

DG, your just pissed off cuz you got thrown off teh "avara2" team...
and Taz!, I do contribute, by my experties in 2D graphic editing.

Don't even bother replying...

-Kyle "Vader" Blessing

pff.

You're overlooking the fact that I never asked or wanted to be on his "team" of game specialists but I DID express interest in seeing what he could do. There's a difference. Furthermore, I never once complained that I was "thrown off."

The more you post your thoughts the less integrity you have as a someone with a functional brain. "Don't even reply." But really, you haven't posted anything on this thread worth reading.

There will be no avara 2, unoffically or offically. Unless Ambrosia lifts a finger to do so, it'll never happend. Stop whining, it'll get you no where. DG you're a complete waste of life, i feel sorry for whatever spawned you. The reason you were kicked out of the group is because, you did absolutely nothing torwards progress, you sat and played with your website. A year from now, if Ambrosia does nothing, the player base of avara will be around 20 players max. Crying about avara's lack of updating and out-dated features do about as much good as writing to the president of the United States, and asking for no taxes.
That's all i have to say about it, this board is pointless.

------------------

I'm a registered Avara player and the sole vector for two other Avara registrations. That means little, other than that my opinion is as valid as any other Avara player if taken as a portion of revenue for Ambrosia.

Ambrosia doesn't really have to do anything aside from remove the shareware notice and personalize my copy of the game in exchange for my $20. That's all the notice said when you start the game, anyway. There weren't any promises there - explicit or implicit - that said Avara would be supported, Avara 2 would come out, that I would be able to find anyone to play with, that it would help teenage boys derive some self worth, or that it would be offered up to aspiring game developers as a foundation from which to create a name (money?) for themselves. Most reasonable people assume after the registration code is sent, the transaction and responsibilities on the part of both parties are complete.

That's not to equate contractual obligation to responsible customer service. So, it is a good idea to help people install the game, keep the game tracker running, and more. Simple customer service isn't a contractual promise, it's just something companies do to get more business in the future. That's an easy concept.

So no ... Ambrosia doesn't have any responsibility to Avara players in the world. Would any who disagree say that, if Ambrosia changed its fundamental business activity and stopped producing software completely, that you would have anything at all to say to them aside from "shucks"? That they are somehow still legally obligated to you? That because they made a great game once they have to do it again? I think not.

You do have a course of action against this company. It's what made America great ... don't buy from them. Punish them for not creating Avara 2 by buying the next best substitute you can from another company. Spend your lunch money savings on MechWarrior, Quake, whatever. Pretty simple. I'm sticking with them and their other cool games.

If there's such an amazing market for these speculative Avara 2 projects outside of the (what ... 50? less?) active Avara players now, Ambrosia would probably have gotten involved by now. I'll point out that aspiring game developers can tell the world to shut the hell up (with authority) if they had any evidence at all that they are any more likely to actually produce and distribute (and update! For eternity!) their game than Ambrosia is to release a real Avara 2.

One final important chapter to this treatise on today's silly affairs. I apologize to the majority of Avara players who ... actually play. The people who substitute Avara for real life and derive their self-worth from it are frustrating to deal with and distorting the value of a game. I wouldn't have taken the time to compose this lengthy thing if I hadn't been compelled by sympathy to offer this advice and at the same time been frustrated by the undeserved beating this company is taking. If you disagree with what people have written here, fine. Forget it. Reply. But getting freaky about it may lead people to mistake you for ... I don't know ... a freak?

Apollo

Grassroots,

As a teacher, it is my duty to stomp out ignorance.

ad hominem - Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason.

It always amazes me when people personally attack a person instead of providing a good argument for a position. Your attitude towards Ambrosia is irrational and your statements demonstrate your lack of maturity.

Good luck in your project.

Jeff Caldwell (Cowboy)

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