I am trying to get all the images, stamps, tiles, animations, pictures, ect... (but none of the maps) out of PoG so I can make an entirly NEW game that basically looks like a PoG close. While this is not very original it is what I have promised I'd do for my friend. How do I get all these things out of Pog and into my game. So far I have all the music and sounds to use but nothing else.

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--MiMe

(This message has been edited by MiMe (edited 07-04-2003).)

(This message has been edited by MiMe (edited 07-04-2003).)

Most of the graphics, sound, and music used in PoG are available in the Coldstone libraries; those that aren't were left out intentionally to keep people from making "PoG clones". Extracting such files from PoG for your own use for any reason (except maybe to create an add-on plugin for the game) would be frowned upon, and possibly illegal.

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'You can either be on the stage, just a performer, just going through the lines...or you can be outside it, and know how the script works, where the scenery hangs, and where the trapdoors are. Isn't that better?'
-- T. Pratchett

Quote

Originally posted by Glenn:
**Extracting such files from PoG for your own use for any reason (except maybe to create an add-on plugin for the game) would be frowned upon, and possibly illegal.

**

That bouldnt be illegal if all you do is play it on your computer. As long as you don't distribute it it would be fine. (legally speaking. Possibly not in fine the minds of the creators)

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--MiMe

(This message has been edited by MiMe (edited 07-04-2003).)

Doing what you're trying to do IS illegal, whether you use it for private use or not. Telling yourself it is just "frowned upon" or "in the minds of the creators" is kidding yourself. They could sue you, and they would win. I'm sorry that my reply is so blunt.

When you purchase Coldstone, much of the same graphics as POG are included, as Glenn wrote. You can use those in your game, because you bought them, because they chose to give them away. Having someone give them to you would be illegal. I believe that the graphics are included in order to help us build a game if we need it.

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-- Debra
Danillitphil Productions
(url="http://"http://www.danillitphil.com/graphics/index.html")www.danillitphil.com(/url)

I don't mean to sound harsh either, Debra, but I'm pretty sure that what you just said is completely false. Because MiMe has a legal copy of PoG, (i assume so, anyway. They give it away for free now, don't they?) he pretty much has the right to do whatever he wants with it, as long as he doesn't start infringing on the copyrights held by Ambrosia concerning PoG.

When you buy a car, you can take it apart if you want. If you buy a picture book, you can make photocopies of it to use as wallpaper. (a slightly ludicrious example, but you can see my point.) Of course, distributing the clones you make gets into very iffy territory. It might be legal to distribute your clone for free, since PoG is now freeware (I'm not crazy about that, right?), but I kinda doubt it.

Y'know, I would just ask Ambrosia. I doubt they would really want to sue you in first place. Maybe they could care less. It hardly hurts to ask, anyway.

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Quote

Originally posted by Solarinus:
I don't mean to sound harsh either, Debra, but I'm pretty sure that what you just said is completely false. Because MiMe has a legal copy of PoG, (i assume so, anyway. They give it away for free now, don't they?)

Where on earth did you hear that?!

Quote

**...he pretty much has the right to do whatever he wants with it, as long as he doesn't start infringing on the copyrights held by Ambrosia concerning PoG.

When you buy a car, you can take it apart if you want. If you buy a picture book, you can make photocopies of it to use as wallpaper. (a slightly ludicrious example, but you can see my point.)**

This is true. However, where we disagree, I think, is on what constitutes fair use versus copyright violation.

Quote

Of course, distributing the clones you make gets into very iffy territory. It might be legal to distribute your clone for free, since PoG is now freeware (I'm not crazy about that, right?), but I kinda doubt it.

Even if PoG were freeware, it would still remain under copyright, and distributing PoG "clones" would still be a violation of copyright unless the PoG license specifically permitted it.

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'You can either be on the stage, just a performer, just going through the lines...or you can be outside it, and know how the script works, where the scenery hangs, and where the trapdoors are. Isn't that better?'
-- T. Pratchett

Because MiMe has a legal copy of PoG, (i assume so, anyway. They give it away for free now, don't they?)

yes, they give it away for free after you send them 25 bucks via digital transfer.

he pretty much has the right to do whatever he wants with it, as long as he doesn't start infringing on the copyrights held by Ambrosia concerning PoG.

of course you can do whatever you want with any product in the privacy of your own home.......that came out dirty. but it doesnt mean its legal. products are sold to you as is, if you destroy modify them thats your own business. generally physical products can be bought and there is no problem to legally modify them as long as you do not sell them.

HOWEVER, software is very different. usually software comes with the clause that if you modify the contents of said package your deader than dead meat. you are not allowed to modify code, you are not allowed to modify and or use art, legally any company could sue you for putting thier logo on your website without permission for a FAN site. but of course they dont for a mountain of reaons like free advertising etc.

also theres the case of plagerism, any modifying of the art whatsoever, theres the case of extracting the art from package files which in many cases is illegal in itself.

If you buy a picture book, you can make photocopies of it to use as wallpaper. (a slightly ludicrious example, but you can see my point.)

uhmm, no thats highly illegal. making a personal backup. okay. taking a photo and reproducing many times over a pattern in which to use in your house, illegal. thats what a copier does "flashing the image. scanning in art and posting it on the internet even in the case of fan galleries in which i am extremly guilty of, highly illegal. the only reason why nothing is done about it is usally the fan is promoting said subject, however, people who amass very large archives of art have been made "examples of" by the companies. ive seen several shut down because of legal reasons.

Of course, distributing the clones you make gets into very iffy territory. It might be legal to distribute your clone for free, since PoG is now freeware (I'm not crazy about that, right?), but I kinda doubt it.

uh.......sigh. theres nothing iffy about it. ITS HIGHLY illegal. now if you BOUGHT coldstone you would have the RIGHT to make a POG addon. no you cant distribute your clone for free, unless you buy coldstone and have made a pog add on. to make a completely individual game using pogs graphics you would have to contact ambrosia 1st. if ambrosia caught you doing any of this they could lock your domain name, have your web space taken, and probably get your isp to dump you cold too.

i think the whole problem arose from being honest (or not knowing legalities) and posting the question on the official ambrosia board, basically asking how do i do something illegal so i can make something illegal.

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(url="http://"http://www.redknightentertainment.com/rkewerks/htmlrke/rkeresourceMAIN.html")Coldstone Links For - Art, 3D, Animation, Audio/Video, Backup, Notes, Maintenance, Problem Solving, Tips and tricks.(/url) Morvera ner Morden

Hmm. Well, glad I could make myself look like an idiot there. Obviously, I could use a little research into the topic.

Copyright law is ridiculous. I feel very tempted to rant about why, (although I am in no way questioning that that may indeed be how the law operates,) but that would be a very long tangent to the original post, so I think I will refrain.
Heh. If anyone really wants to duke it out concerning the philosophical justification of copyright law, feel free to email me, I guess.

Oh yeah. And I guess I WAS crazy about that. Eh. I hated that game too much to really ever find out, I guess. I mean, no offense to Ambrosia, or anyone who made it, but it seemed pretty much a clone of diablo... but with bad graphics. And I never liked Diablo anyway. Sorry for being misinformed about it, though.

Anyway. Yeah. Excuse me while I go remove several feet from my mouth.

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I'm sitting at my computer, amazed... surely this has been blown totally out of proportion!! If MiMe makes a game using the PoG graphics and gives it to a friend, no one will mind, no one will get sued, no one will get fined... nothing will happen.
Not everyone using Coldstone plans to sell their games, distribute their products commercially or even distribute it beyond, say, friends and family. Some people, myself included, make games purely for fun.
No harm is going to come to ambrosia if someone makes a game with the PoG graphics and gives it to a friend or two, it may actually encourage people to register a copy of PoG!
"Hey, that game you made was cool, where d'you ge the graphics?"
"This cool game called Pillars of Garendall from Ambrosiasw.com"
"Hey, I might check that out"
Ambrosia: "Kaching!"

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Do you get Migraines? - (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep")www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep(/url)
"Kids aren't influenced by computer games at all... Pac man's a computer game, how many kids do you know who listen to repetetive music and take mind-altering pills?"

I dont care about it any more sounds too dangerous. By the way, if I found a way to extract the stuff and I use it in the privacy of my own home, and it is Illegal, then how the heck are thay gonna know? (possibly the web board post) but that doesn't matter because I really dont care anymore!

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--MiMe

Noo! Please don't let the ranting about legal rubbish, copywright and over the top remarks discourage you from trying out Coldstone! There really is nothing to worry about, nothing dangerous and no need for you to abandon your ideas. I'm still a bit confused as to why your post recieved the response it did, but please don''t worry. In resopnse to your initial question, have you downloaded the Coldstone demo yet? If you do that you will get a selection of graphics from PoG as well as pretty much everything you need to get yourself started. If you like what you've got, then register and begin your project properly. If you run into any propblems, don't hesitate to post your questions here or search the boards for similar questions. In my experience the people on this board have been nothing but incredibly helpful and are always willing to help out and give you ideas. Please do not be disheartened by the unnecesary response you've recieved to your query, (anyone care to back me up? I'm sure you don't want to scare off all new developers like this...!). Hope you have fun with coldstone

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Do you get Migraines? - (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep")www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep(/url)
"Kids aren't influenced by computer games at all... Pac man's a computer game, how many kids do you know who listen to repetetive music and take mind-altering pills?"

Frustration is overwhelming me! I have no experiance with 3d art, no artistic ability, and all I want are some of the cool stamps out of pog.

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--MiMe

As I said, there are some in the downloadable Coldstone demo, (or on the CD if you register). If it's any help, I believe people have made other graphics which are free to download and use in your games. Check out the Coldstone addons page (i'd put the link up but im way to tired... it's gone midnight where I am). People often make graphics for others to use and put them up for download (i'll have some stuff up soon, tile sets for various environments, I'll post when i'm done) so you don't have to be an artist to make your game, don't worry

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Do you get Migraines? - (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep")www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep(/url)
"Kids aren't influenced by computer games at all... Pac man's a computer game, how many kids do you know who listen to repetetive music and take mind-altering pills?"

Quote

Originally posted by Migraine:
**Check out the Coldstone addons page (i'd put the link up but im way to tired... it's gone midnight where I am). People often make graphics for others to use and put them up for download.

**

I have downloaded all graphics from the add-ons page for colstone that were there anytime before wednesday. What I'm really looking for are good stamps, I have plenty of ground tiles (though more would be nice they are not my top priority).

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--MiMe

this is for you MiMe.

Frustration is overwhelming me! I have no experiance with 3d art, no artistic ability, and all I want are some of the cool stamps out of pog.

buy coldstone and get more figures and animations than arguably anyone here has created. simple.
or rip em illegally. your choice, who cares.

once again nobody is going to come after you as long as you dont go public with anything.

do what you think is best or what your situation provides.

and this, this is for you Solarinus

I'm sitting at my computer, amazed... surely this has been blown totally out of proportion!! If MiMe makes a game using the PoG graphics and gives it to a friend, no one will mind, no one will get sued, no one will get fined... nothing will happen.

yeah i said that. """of course you can do whatever you want with any product in the privacy of your own home""" and later i stated that generally no one cares unless you get popular and generally on the internet. is there a echo in here?

Not everyone using Coldstone plans to sell their games, distribute their products commercially or even distribute it beyond, say, friends and family. Some people, myself included, make games purely for fun.

nothing wrong with that. you BOUGHT coldstone. this whole topic was about not buying coldstone and using the graphics. entirely different point. stated "wanted the graphics from pog". well obviously he doesnt own coldstone otherwise the he'd have almost the entire graphic library on cd? which is one of two whole reasons for buying the cd.

No harm is going to come to ambrosia if someone makes a game with the PoG graphics and gives it to a friend or two, it may actually encourage people to register a copy of PoG!
"Hey, that game you made was cool, where d'you ge the graphics?"
"This cool game called Pillars of Garendall from Ambrosiasw.com"
"Hey, I might check that out"
Ambrosia: "Kaching!"

unless the game made equals near POG for just simple gameplay then why go out and buy POG? in fact, why dont we give it to more of our friends of friends because they think its cool too? no mention to friends or 2nd or 3rd tier friends of ambrosia? what, is ambrosias logo going to be on it? self justification for self cause must be made reasonable before stated. 1 in a 100 possible scenarios carefully picked for cause is hardly a arguement again "to do something illegal".

Noo! Please don't let the ranting about legal rubbish, copywright and over the top remarks discourage you from trying out Coldstone!

where was the ranting? statements? yes? ranting? i dont see any of that? over the top remarks? i cant find any of the remarks saying he would go to jail, get sued for thousands, lose home and honey. what over the top remarks again?

I'm still a bit confused as to why your post recieved the response it did, but please don''t worry.

......., ......., ........ uhmmm cuz its illegal? and what response? people simply stated it was illegal? i dont think anyone went nuts on him? wait...... lemme check...... deb..... nope, she was blunt, not nuts taking someones copyrighted and trademarked wholly recognized work and digitally reworking, rearanging, and possibly reformatting them is simply illegal. im guilty of it, millions are guilty of it. does it make it right, no. can you justify it, no. can you reason it, possibly.

now there are cases where people give permisions like "you can download my art to your drive for personal pleasure, but dont you dare put it on another site. ambrosia did this. they said for 50$ you can take this used in this to make this. they didnt say you could skirt buying this to make this for personal pleasure. they clearly defined a product in which to make your own games for FUN. simple.

Please do not be disheartened by the unnecesary response you've recieved to your query, (anyone care to back me up? I'm sure you don't want to scare off all new developers like this...!). Hope you have fun with coldstone!

unnecesary response?

i want these graphics, how do i get them. we cant help you get them, thats illegal. bad things could happen to you legally if you would distribute such a game to anyone this way. we as forum goers on ambrosia cant help you obtain this illegaly. it may be frowned upon by the moderators, ambrosia and is illegal. you can get all the graphics you want from coldstone. wow, we flew off the handle. summarized, yes. unnecesary, no. what your impression of "will harm, could harm, cant harm, wont harm, doesnt matter. the law is clear, ambrosia made a way for you to legally obtain the graphics. anything outside of that approved method by ambrosia is, (gasp) illegal.

mime seems fine with this. you however think anything is legal if you buy it or you do it on a self or small scale. its not. just because ambrosia does not list every single thing you can and cannot do with a said product legally, doesnt mean you can "assume" with someone elses intelectual property what can be done legally with it or not. if they do not state any terms of use for the product in which you are viewing, then that means the product was sold to you as is, which is something too look at or play. for which it was created and intended for. if people had to list what could and could not be done with thier product everytime you would recieve a thick book with every thing you bought.

once again, is anything bad going to happen to you if you do? proabably not. will karma catch up with you? probably not. will it erode your soul and give you many sleepless nights? maybe over a long period of time, but probably not. do whatever you want, you will anyway. no nasty bagman is going to come in and pillow case your head over it. but saying its not illegal, carrying on like it isnt and defending something that is clearly illegal, thats where i had a problem.

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(url="http://"http://www.redknightentertainment.com/rkewerks/htmlrke/rkeresourceMAIN.html")Coldstone Links For - Art, 3D, Animation, Audio/Video, Backup, Notes, Maintenance, Problem Solving, Tips and tricks.(/url) Morvera ner Morden

My post was probably the most over the top here, im sorry, and I pretty much agree with everything you just said, DJ (you were quoting me, not Solarinus :)) I was just worried about someone being discouraged from using coldstone due to the fear of being sued... seemed a bit extreme considering the context... and that's exactly what seemed to happen after my first post. I'm awaire of most of the legalities (i think) and the fact that activities such as this are not to be promoted here, but the thread could have gome more towards pointing MiMe to free graphics sites and stuff like that, and that's what i was trying to do with my post :). Once again im sorry if my manic posting ruffled some feathers, I don't want to get under anyone's skin.

Migraine

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Do you get Migraines? - (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep")www.geocities.com/ibashmyselftosleep(/url)
"Kids aren't influenced by computer games at all... Pac man's a computer game, how many kids do you know who listen to repetetive music and take mind-altering pills?"

(This message has been edited by Migraine (edited 07-07-2003).)

I don't think that anyone should be discouraged from using Coldstone by the fear of being sued, and I don't think that anyone implied that. (I did appreciate DJ's comments.)

Copyright law is very real, and anyone who wants to do business needs to know the possibilities. But please know that taking something even for personal use is also against the law; you are stealing it. I encourage caution and good sense, not fear. And I'd rather be a strong voice against copyright violation than have a person who reads this board find himself or herself in court because I did not speak up.

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-- Debra
Danillitphil Productions
(url="http://"http://www.danillitphil.com/graphics/index.html")www.danillitphil.com(/url)

(This message has been edited by Debra (edited 07-07-2003).)

Wow, I stopped caring about.. um well yesterday morning. I also found a way to make a pog clone with every single graphic from pog: Make a plugin that is yer new game and make a man in fantrima that will teleport you into the starting area of your new game. While it is not an entirly new game, it serves my purposes perfectly.

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--MiMe

Actually, copyright law is real, but it's often uninformed*. Basically, it lets the 'victim' sue you if they want, but as I understand it no actual crime takes place (where the FBI will deal with you) until a certain amount of monetary damage to the copyright holder happens. I think this is either $200 or $2000, but is in any case more than $20.

Also, courts have ruled that EULAs do not apply to minors, at least in my state. So, you have your full fair use rights if you're under eighteen. That still doesn't mean that you can violate actual copyright with impunity, however.

Dana
- Enjoying EULA-free status for two more years...

*I misspelled 'unenforced', and the computer spell checker made it 'uninformed' - there was no option for the word I wanted. Evidently it has some political opinions about intellectual property...

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The bottom line is use common sense: if you do something that is directly against the wishes of the creator, and if you get punished, you deserve it so don't whine about it.

In this case PoG is owned by ASW and Beenox. The game itself is copyrighted and you can not use images from it without permission(the (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/pogwalkthrough.htm")PoG Walkthrough and Compendium(/url), for example, received permission from both ASW and Beenox to use images from PoG).

Coldstone, on the other hand, has a license with it that allows purchasers to utilize the image libraries. Many of the images were used in PoG, so if you bought Coldstone then you can legally use the images in your games.

The images in PoG that are not included with Coldstone are obviously not a part of the CGE license and thus are not useable.

But again it all boils down to enforcement. In reality if you rip graphics from a copyrighted work and use it solely for your own amusement, it is doubtful that anyone will prosecute you.

However, "doubtful," "will," and "can" are different words. And as I mentioned at the beginning of this post, if you get caught and you are punished you certainly deserve it. I don't want to hear anyone whining about the "bad evil company" that sued for copyright infringement.

The choice is yours.

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