Coldstone will not build a working game for the Mac or the PC.

Yes you read this correctly. After weeks of back and forth with Coldstone Tec support (which I must say is very nice) they have informed me that sadly, this is the case.

Coldstone will not build a working game.

Myself and other consumer level developers being unable to build a working release on any platform have been working closely with Ambrosia Tec support to come to a resolution. We have sent them our source materials, game files ect. The final diagnosis from Dee who is the main original programmer is that Realbasic the program that Beenox used to create coldstone has let them down. If graphic files are "to large" (what this size is they cannot say) Coldstone will not compile. It is that simple.

No time estimate is given for a fix to this issue. The fear is that it is a flaw in Realbasic. Which means that Coldstone would have to be re-built in raw C, or whatever.

If you are developing a game that uses custom graphics and is intended to be a professional consumer release, I would stop efforts now and not waste any more time or resources. Communicate with Ambrosia and push for a fix.

Best of luck to you all.

Cheers,
CG

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by cgoran:
Myself and other consumer level developers being unable to build a working release on any platform have been working closely with Ambrosia Tec support to come to a resolution. We have sent them our source materials, game files ect. The final diagnosis from Dee who is the main original programmer is that Realbasic the program that Beenox used to create coldstone has let them down. If graphic files are "to large" (what this size is they cannot say) Coldstone will not compile. It is that simple.

Well thats a real bummer.

Can you give a bit more info though on the graphics problem? Are you talking about a single graphic(say, a 293GB PICT), or a cummulative Pictures directory(say 293GB worth of PICT files)?

Also, how big are your graphics?

Thanks, and sorry...

------------------
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/pogwalkthrough.htm")PoG Walkthrough and Compendium(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/dev_tools.htm")PoG Dev Tools(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/spells_expander.htm")Spells Expander(/url)
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net")Stark.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.net")EVula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://mail.ambrosiasw.com/mailman/listinfo/coldstone_dev")Coldstone-dev mailing list(/url)

This sounds really fishy. I've used RealBasic since 2.0 (now on 4.5) and I can compile mongo graphics just fine. I've never seen any similar complaints on the RB-NUG either and I've been on it for three years.

Besides... how did they ever make POG then? In english, when something sounds suspicious, people say, "In a pig's eye." En français on dit, "Mon oeil."

Apollo16

------------------

we'lll see...

I myself have (just last night) cut the file size of my graphics down to an 1/8th of their original size, i have a full screen graphic that was originally 1.2 mb with no white pixels(924x868 pict file created using a screen shot under millions of colors), since converting it to .PNG which i suggest you all do since the engine does it anyway upon building a release this will likely save your files to 1/4 of their previous size (1.2mb becomes 452k) now take that same photoshop file and save it as a PNG in graphic converter (check the save webReady option) and it cuts to about half, 1/8 the original size still in 32bit color with absolutely no loss of color.

The fact remains that the engine does build the application/the 996k-1000k file, that loads your graphics and plays the game, of course you don't get the nice secure .DATA files, but your game does build, Yes the engine is tile based, so at some point if you attempt to use non tiled graphics you will probably kill the engine.

WHt you've writtien has a spin on it, or is your derived conclusion from raw factss that you've heard from Ambrosia Tech support(who aren't to versed in CGE or its mechanics) and from Beenox, you have posted a mass warning without presenting us the same faccts you were issued, so we are not free to come to our own conclusion. Effectively you're spinning the story.

Dee i know has said that RB has let them down all the time, but he referred to this because of the bugs that are a result of the RB system, that are out of his control, not that it won't compile a working game, this makes no sense, I won't get into the science of why but i'm sure ColdStone Death will pop up and drop some polluted conspiracy theory full of fantasy about dashes and and capital letters.

Also your help won't come from Ambrosia they're publishers, the word publication means 'to the public', all they do is serve it up to the masses they don't code it.

If you want us all to heed you're warning of doom
and abandon that which we've spent our time and creativity on just on your say so
then why don't you post the original letters,I'm sure no one will mind

------------------

• (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/index.html")eLL' softWare: "eLL'_e_vated" :Last updated 11.10.02(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by cgoran:
Coldstone will not build a working game.

Sad. My hopes for Coldstone have been going up and down for the past few months, and they just hit an all-time low. I just seriously hope that they reconsider their licencing policy with the Goliath engine.

(last I read, beenox.com states that that engine won't be licenced out to "the general public)

------------------

(This message has been edited by Madman (edited 11-15-2002).)

I'm sure given a bit of time Beenox will come up with a solution. I mean if it can only publish small games, but allows for plugins I don't see to big of a problem. You could just extend the game to what ever length you want by creating several plugins. Oh and it can create small games. Starfield 2 is proof of this.

Here's hoping the best.

Pedrith

------------------

It is not my intention to be negative, or spur unnecessary fear and frustration.
It was only after some deliberating that I decided to share what I heard today with the kind folks here that have been an invaluable resource to me.

My files are all png files. There are some large stamps that I'm using but nothing outside of the supposed scope of Coldstone.

Yes, Coldstone built POG, but With what OS, what version ect.

It sounds like people who are using the supplied graphics and just modifying the medieval game are not having this problem. However, the folks who are attempting larger scale productions are reporting the same problems.

Again, it brings me no pleasure to write this here. But I would hope to save any developers out there like my self any undue frustration. And I would love to see Beenox pushed into fixing this issue soon.

I cannot speak to Realbasic I've had no experience with it. I only report what was verbalized to me.

Cheers,
Charles

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by cgoran:
It sounds like people who are using the supplied graphics and just modifying the medieval game are not having this problem. However, the folks who are attempting larger scale productions are reporting the same problems.

Well and good, but would you mind answering the questions I put forth above?

Quote

Originally posted by Me, Myself, and I after careful deliberations: **
Can you give a bit more info though on the graphics problem? Are you talking about a single graphic(say, a 293GB PICT), or a cummulative Pictures directory(say 293GB worth of PICT files)?

Also, how big are your graphics?**

Thanks

------------------
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/pogwalkthrough.htm")PoG Walkthrough and Compendium(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/dev_tools.htm")PoG Dev Tools(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/spells_expander.htm")Spells Expander(/url)
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net")Stark.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.net")EVula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://mail.ambrosiasw.com/mailman/listinfo/coldstone_dev")Coldstone-dev mailing list(/url)

forgot to fill out the userName and lost my very eloquent post, so here's the abbreviated version...

goliath is a Industrial strangth Engine, which wold require industrial code, not even macZoop could save you
not going to ever become public license if it did you could expect it in the order of magnitude of $2000, similar to the commercial pricing of Pangea soft.
beenox has done work on the PSx and several other industrial jobs this is how they pay the bills,
and Goliath is there new 401k plan
-----
building the heart and soul of yur game and then making pluIngs is a viable option and few people would mind
-----
POG began under 9.0.4 and ended under OSX 10.1, you can derive the rest of the time line from the progress log
-----
It took some contemplation but it just hit me, if you're wondering why none of the POG files and art have any issue building here are the general reasons:

during beta testing many of the testers used the packaged art files, this means that any issue would encounter would only be in our experience with Beenox's art..if we all had projects in development at the time when we were testing we would have ran into all of the issues you currently have because we cwould have been doing trial and error like you, and for the most paart we did butcher the medieval template, it mad things go faster than building from scratch. THere is nothing special about Beenox's art, nothing if you want to sit around and decompile, standard graphic convertor files, knock yourselves out...specifically the current enfgine was built around POGs specifications, not intentionally and not maliciously only because it was our test subject/sorce of parts...

And if these prefab graphics worked there was really no pressure/thought/reason to expand the currently unknown limitations of the engine. Again if we did have games in development the user Manual would have been much more versed in limits etc. Everything has limits you've pushed beyond them...oops.
-----
So in reality what's really happened is that you would do best to studythe preFab art in the sense that:
what are the dimensions of the largest file
how did they script this event

This knowledge will become more widely known the more games come out, the longer the engine exists etc. the more texts that are written..

------------------

• (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/index.html")eLL' softWare: "eLL'_e_vated" :Last updated 11.10.02(/url)

I just cannot see why or how anyone could begin professional production not knowing the scope of product they are working with.

It's like saying "There is a limit, we don't know what it is, but if it bombs out on you just before delivery...oops. Sorry." "Go ahead and create beautiful custom graphics but if they don't work for some unknown reason, oh well." This is simply not a professional product or attitude.

If all that you want is to use the supplied graphics and enter your own dialog, go for it!
I hope that it works for you. I also hope that Beenox addresses this issue so that I don't loose all of the work that I have done so far and that I may feel excited once again to use a tool with promise.

If this issue is resolved it could be an exiting tool. It is not an expensive tool after all. $40 dollars is not allot of money. But with the current admonition that there is this big flaw, selling it as anything less than a play toy is just false.

Again, I hope this is resolved.

"Coldstone is an easy to use game development tool that allows you to create professional stand-alone games that run on Mac OS, Mac OS X, and Microsoft Windows."

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by cgoran:
I just cannot see why or how anyone could begin professional production not knowing the scope of product they are working with.

Ok, try #3...

Cgoran, what size of files are you using? Give us some info, don't just say "big files don't work." I'm not buying that. I've got some fairly large graphics and everything compiles and chugs along happily.

I'm not disbelieving that you have a problem. But I would like some info on it. Spit some numbers out, alright?

------------------
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/pogwalkthrough.htm")PoG Walkthrough and Compendium(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/dev_tools.htm")PoG Dev Tools(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/spells_expander.htm")Spells Expander(/url)
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net")Stark.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.net")EVula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://mail.ambrosiasw.com/mailman/listinfo/coldstone_dev")Coldstone-dev mailing list(/url)

Here are the stats.

"pictures" directory total size (this is all of the graphics) 115 MB not all of these are placed in the game yet.

Largest single stamp 4.2 MB
Second largest stamp 2.5 MB

Everything else is 1MB and under.

My point is that we need to know what the limmits are up front. If these are unaceptable sizes, we must adjust the scope of what is possable with Coldstone.

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by cgoran:
**"pictures" directory total size (this is all of the graphics) 115 MB not all of these are placed in the game yet.

Largest single stamp 4.2 MB
Second largest stamp 2.5 MB**

Alrighty, thank you.

Now, if you remove these 2 stamps, will the game compile and run? I'd like to know if this is a size limitation of a single stamp, or if this is a cumulative size problem.

------------------
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/pogwalkthrough.htm")PoG Walkthrough and Compendium(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/dev_tools.htm")PoG Dev Tools(/url) | (url="http://"http://stark.evula.net/plugins/spells_expander.htm")Spells Expander(/url)
(url="http://"http://stark.evula.net")Stark.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.net")EVula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://mail.ambrosiasw.com/mailman/listinfo/coldstone_dev")Coldstone-dev mailing list(/url)

Definw your definition of Professional, POG is a professional quality game,
You can easily create a game on Par with any SNES title, which would be a large jump in standards
and numbers of titles avaailable on the macintosh,
would you agree that Realmz and the Exile series
is professional quality? If so then you can easily create a game that greatly exceeds those titles and just about all the ones fantasoft/spiderSoft ever built.

I believe that coldstone is professional quality, however you're describing industrial strength,i know of few products that would handle a stamp of that magnitude and maintain a good frameRate other than industrial strength C.

Honestly you have to keep in mind that CGE is not an embedded environment on a dedicated console? it runs as application software, third tier... Imagine if you gave pictureviewer the same amount of memory as your game and opened up the same number and type of files and then tried to move them around without crashing your comp...Its not a GOLIATH you have to work with it.

I myself don't nor will i ever use preFab art, its just not enough, i'm building with custom art and the largest stamp as i said is fullscreen 24 bit and the game handles it well, along with 7 layers with complex alpha masking multiple onscreen NPCs animation sound, music basically the whole deal with ease.

------------------

• (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/index.html")eLL' softWare: "eLL'_e_vated" :Last updated 11.10.02(/url)

And honestly your game had a very DUke Nukem Time to Kill, ResidentEvil Koudelka Clocktowery feel to it, if it is at all possible to bring it forth,

possibly by segmenting the graphics into building blocks, instead of massive pieces, this would be better for the engine, or segmenting the map for significant locations instead of a sprawling pseudo 3d world (which is more demanding than actual 3d).

even professionals who use professional tools have to compromise with their hardware/software, in order to bring life into their products.

And its unfortunate, but you're experience has taught us all something valuable...thanks for sharing

------------------

• (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/index.html")eLL' softWare: "eLL'_e_vated" :Last updated 11.10.02(/url)

This is very disturbing. I hope somebody from Beenox will post a helpful reply in this thread asap.

Dee Brown made a comment in the coldstone images board that in his opinion using large pictures is a good method (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum57/HTML/000055.html#")http://www.AmbrosiaS...ML/000055.html#(/url)
So how does that compute with cgorans experiences?
I need coldstone to work with my large files (2000x2000 pix) so I'll do my best to reduce the filesize and try to build a release version, to find out if all my/our work here has been in vain.

------------------
"Get back to work, you slacker!" - Duke Nukem
(url="http://"http://home.wanadoo.nl/wim48/templequest.htm")Templequest(/url) (url="http://"http://home.wanadoo.nl/wim48/coldstone.htm")homemade tiles(/url) (url="http://"http://home.wanadoo.nl/wim48/pog/pogscreenshots.html")Funny POG screenshots(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by cgoran:
**Coldstone will not build a working game for the Mac or the PC.

Yes you read this correctly. After weeks of back and forth with Coldstone Tec support (which I must say is very nice) they have informed me that sadly, this is the case.

Coldstone will not build a working game.

Myself and other consumer level developers being unable to build a working release on any platform have been working closely with Ambrosia Tec support to come to a resolution. We have sent them our source materials, game files ect. The final diagnosis from Dee who is the main original programmer is that Realbasic the program that Beenox used to create coldstone has let them down. If graphic files are "to large" (what this size is they cannot say) Coldstone will not compile. It is that simple.

No time estimate is given for a fix to this issue. The fear is that it is a flaw in Realbasic. Which means that Coldstone would have to be re-built in raw C, or whatever.

If you are developing a game that uses custom graphics and is intended to be a professional consumer release, I would stop efforts now and not waste any more time or resources. Communicate with Ambrosia and push for a fix.

Best of luck to you all.

Cheers,
CG

**

Hello-
This not true.

We have indeed been in discussion on the phone about the problems you've been experiencing. At no point did I agree with you that Coldstone could not do exactly what we advertise it can do. As a matter of fact, when you asked, I pointed out PoG. We state clearly on the Pillars of Garendall page that it was created with Coldstone. This is a fact.

At no point did I say that RealBasic was having any problems compiling graphics files. You are mixing apples and oranges. There were two points:

One: Another user experiencing similar problems to yourself did some testing that led them to believe the problem may be related to the size of the custom graphics added to the project. This has not been confirmed by anyone here, nor at Beenox, but was pointed out to help Beenox in tracking down the problem.

Two: Beenox felt it may be related to the way RealBasic steps through functions.

I understand you are far into a project that is now on hold due to technical problems with the software used to develop it. Believe me, I understand the frustration that software development can be, but the developers at Beenox have been working very hard on this, going into the office on weekends to fix this problem. so a backdoor shot about Coldstone simply not working is not appreciated.

Ambrosia would never release a product that flat out didn't work.

------------------
David Dunham / tech support / Ambrosia Software, Inc.

looks like the spin is over...

------------------

• (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/index.html")eLL' softWare: "eLL'_e_vated" :Last updated 11.16.02(/url)

Now featuring the new acceleration and celshading PDF's

Well,

It was never my intention to "spin" a story or to "back shot" anyone.
What point would that serve?

The fact remains that for an undisclosed or unknown reason, Coldstone will not build a working version of our game that was built to the specs that are specified in the manual.

I have supplied my source files and have received no reasonable explanation except speculation that it "may" be a problem with Realbasic.

This information I provided to the web board in a clearly unwelcome attempt to save folks some grief and to mine for a solution to the build issue. There may actually be other developers out there that would benefit from hearing this information.

So now, I have no working game, no answers and have been chastised for attempting to help your users?

Nicely done.

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by cgoran:
So now, I have no working game, no answers and have been chastised for attempting to help your users?

Sadly, this is just the way it goes here. I appreciate people like David coming out here to explain the situation, but between the amount of updating we've gotten so far and the amount of bugs past the beta testing, I still feel like Beenox doesn't have a great deal of resources being put to coldstone. And then there are the people who had different plans from what we had so they flame us for complaining and act like we're being unreasonable for wanting a feature that coldstone seemed like it would support in the future, or talking about a bug that plagues us everywhere we go.

I don't mean to whine at people with stressful jobs who have no control over what I'm whining about but (url="http://"http://www.beenox.com/game_vatz.html")this(/url) still bugs the hell out of me so I'll just say that I wasn't directing this post at David.

(This message has been edited by Madman (edited 11-19-2002).)