First, thanks to Dee, Beenox and Ambrosia for getting this update in our hands.

Thank you! applause

Now, on to a specific question. Of my two major issues with 1.0.0, it seems that one (entering tag values in dialogs) has been fixed, but the other (anti-aliasing/masking with PNG graphics) has not. At least, I rebuilt my game under 1.0.1 and still got the all-colors-bleed-through-white issue with a white-backgrounded dialog, in a PNG with a proper alpha channel.

Can anyone from Ambrosia or Beenox confirm or deny this?

Thanks again for the hard work.

- TM

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Originally posted by TomatoMan:
... but the other (anti-aliasing/masking with PNG graphics) has not. At least, I rebuilt my game under 1.0.1 and still got the all-colors-bleed-through-white issue with a white-backgrounded dialog, in a PNG with a proper alpha channel.

Could you explain this problem more clearly? I don't know exactly what kind of problem you're having, but PNGs show up just fine for me—I've been making animations for my plug-in like crazy and they all work.

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If passion rules reason, how can you allow only reason to rule you? Only Celchu knows the answer...
— Cafall

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Originally posted by Cafalll:
**Could you explain this problem more clearly? I don't know exactly what kind of problem you're having, but PNGs show up just fine for me—I've been making animations for my plug-in like crazy and they all work.

**

PNGs work, but the alpha-channel-transparency thing doesn't. You're supposed to be able to set an alpha channel in a PNG which dictates which part of the image is transparent and which isn't; it's a mask, in other words.

The problem is that the ColdStone engine appears to ignore the alpha channel and just treat the color white as transparent in the image. I have dialog boxes with white backgrounds, which I want to be opaque, but they come up with white transparent, so the screen underneath bleeds through and makes the dialog transparent, except for the non-white parts. Creating an alpha channel that covers the entire image should make the whole thing opaque, but it doesn't work.

I've tried with both 32-bit PNG with 8-bit alpha channels, and 16-bit PNG with 1-bit alpha. Neither works, they always come up with white transparent.

All the manual says, on page 87 (under PNG), is "Use this format to create translucent images. Add an alpha channel to create a transfer mask for the original image." The problem is that the game appears to ignore the alpha channel and treat white as transparent instead.

A workaround, I know, is just "don't use white." That's not a solution, though, and it would be good if Alpha channels worked correctly - especially 8-bit ones, so levels of translucency/transparency could be achieved. I do actually want to use white, and an "off-white" hack/workaround isn't a solution. Working alpha channels would be great to have.

- TM

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Originally posted by TomatoMan:
I've tried with both 32-bit PNG with 8-bit alpha channels, and 16-bit PNG with 1-bit alpha. Neither works, they always come up with white transparent.

Try an 8-bit alpha channel (if that is possible). 8-bit graphics (and alpha channels) are natorious for not working.

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Originally posted by TomatoMan:
< snip>

Everything works perfectly up here. Try a 16-bit PNG; if you're using Photoshop, don't bother making an extra channel, just delete the white from the parts you want to be transparent. (You should see a gray-and-white grid showing through.)

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If passion rules reason, how can you allow only reason to rule you? Only Celchu knows the answer...
— Cafall

Quote

Originally posted by Cafalll:
**Everything works perfectly up here. Try a 16-bit PNG; if you're using Photoshop, don't bother making an extra channel, just delete the white from the parts you want to be transparent. (You should see a gray-and-white grid showing through.)

**

But that's not the problem. The problem is that I don't want white to be transparent. I want white to be opaque, and have an alpha channel to properly dictate transparency. That's what's implied in the manual, unless I'm reading it wrong.

I don't have PhotoShop - can't afford it. I'm using GraphicConverter, which is capable of handling all kinds of images. Could be that it's a bug in GC - if you can create solid white (not off-white, but pure white) areas, in a PNG, that are NOT transparent (using PhotoShop), that would be an important clue. Lots of people use GC. Can you try this and report back?

OTOH, if the alpha channel information in the manual is wrong, it would be good to have it corrected by Ambrosia or Beenox. Anybody from A or B reading this thread?

TM

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(url="http://"http://tomatoman.net")tomatoman.net(/url)

Why not just replace the white that you want to be opaque with very very very light grey? That's what I do.

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Originally posted by nero:
Why not just replace the white that you want to be opaque with very very very light grey? That's what I do.

Because, as I said before, that's a workaround, not a solution. I want to solve the problem, and understand how transparency works, or doesn't work. The more hacks and tweaks you rely on, the more trouble you have down the road when things change under the hood. If I'm going to use this toolset for a big project, I want to be sure I understand what's happening and what's supposed to happen.

BTW, I tried explicitly setting a transparent color with GraphicConverter instead of using an alpha channel. With or without an alpha channel, 16-bit or 32-bit color, it still didn't work. No matter what I do, white is transparent and real transparency information, either in the form of an explicitly set transparent color in the PNG or an 8- or 1-bit alpha channel, is ignored.

Dee, if this is a bug, could we identify it as such? And if not, could we figure out what the story is?

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Originally posted by TomatoMan:
**< snip>
**

Pure white is unatural. Use an off white, and I can assure you that your graphics will look more realistic.

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"Then you do believe that we are real. You think us capable of not forgiving you. Who would forgive you more readily than your dream?"
"No," the Unbeliever said. "Dreams never forgive."
-Stephen Donaldson,
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever

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Originally posted by Celchu:
**Pure white is unatural. Use an off white, and I can assure you that your graphics will look more realistic.

**

I'm not going for realism. Why won't anyone let me have #FFFFFF as an opaque color? What if I really don't want #FEFEFE?

I'll try to write this as good-naturedly as possible so folks don't think I'm flaming. I'm not, honestly. What I want is a solution to this problem, not a workaround. I know I could use an off-white "hack" to get around this particular manifestation of the problem. That doesn't interest me. What interests me is understanding (A) whether there is a bug in the implementation of alpha channels as described in the manual, and ( whether it's going to be fixed if there is one, or whether the "white is always transparent and alpha channels are ignored" behavior the engine seems to be showing is correct, and whether the manual is going to be updated to reflect that if so.

Smileys galore, as needed. But please, let's end this with a proper solution, not hacks and workarounds.

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(url="http://"http://tomatoman.net")tomatoman.net(/url)

Originally posted by: TomatoMan
What interests me is understanding (A) whether there is a bug in the implementation of alpha channels as described in the manual, and ( whether it's going to be fixed if there is one, or whether the "white is always transparent and alpha channels are ignored" behavior the engine seems to be showing is correct, and whether the manual is going to be updated to reflect that if so.

Smileys galore, as needed. But please, let's end this with a proper solution, not hacks and workarounds.

I feel the same way. I have spent hours trying to make a transparent water creature so the player could see through him as he played the game. Also there are times when I would like to create a fog like scene where the fog is a grade of transparency. I have been following this thread with great interest to see if anyone can come up with an answer. Rather than a work around. White isn't transparent. It's invisible. Transparent means I can see through it. You know, like sun glasses. I see color but I also see through them.

Toast from texas

Celchu, when are you going to email me? I'm working hard for you and need your input.
answer my email.

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Quote

Originally posted by me:
Try an 8-bit alpha channel (if that is possible). 8-bit graphics (and alpha channels) are natorious for not working.

What I ment was try a 16 bit channel. (made a new post because nobody would look up at my previous one if I edited it :)) Oops! :redface:

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The problem with pure white overriding alpha channels was definitely a bug in 1.0.0. I haven't checked with 1.0.1, but I suspect that if you're still having the same problems, it's fair to assume that it's the same bug. You'll just have to use the "don't use white" workaround until it's fixed, I would guess. (I'm sure you know already, but just to clarify to anyone else - if there's no pure white in an image, the alpha channel will be used properly, but if there's any pure white, the engine mistakenly uses that for the transparency and ignores the alpha completely.) Wait for 1.0.2...

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The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. - Bahá'u'lláh
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