Quote

Originally posted by Noel Webster (in another thread):
**Random thought: It would be neat if several of us artsy types could bang our proverbial heads together and create some kind of 'graphics tutorial compilation' for the Coldstone add-ons/downloads page. Each of us could contribute something describing the technique(s) we're using, and we could compile the whole thing into a single pdf file for reference. Since questions about graphic design seem to pop up quite a bit, it seems like this might be a worthwhile endeavor.

I'll volunteer my services ... anyone else interested? :)**

Wow, you took the words right out of my keyboard.

There has been more than one complaint about the graphics (and lack thereof) on the Coldstone CD. This isn't an issue for me personally because I can draw. Others, on the other hand, aren't so fortunate. I'd like to help out where I can.

For starters, for those of you who couldn't draw an egg to save your life, I highly recommend checking out the Game Assets section of idevgames.com. There are several tilesets and character graphics (people, tanks, cars, space ships, etc.) available for download. There may be license/usage issues -- read the readme's!

I also recommend trying Meshwork, available at (url="http://"http://www.codenautics.com/meshwork")www.codenautics.com/meshwork(/url). This is my current tool of choice for creating characters and locations for the game I'm creating. The primary benefit of using a 3D modeling program for character design is that once the character is modelled you can pose it any way you want, which makes directional sprites a snap. I sort of figured this out the hard way; I hand-drew 8 isometric views of my main character before I realized that I only needed to create him once!

Note: There are also free versions of Amapi ((url="http://"http://amapi.idevgames.com/")amapi.idevgames.com(/url)) and Strata 3D ((url="http://"http://www.strata.com/strataproducts/strata3dbase/index.html")www.strata.com(/url)) available for download, although they are both somewhat more complicated to use than Meshwork.

Opinionated aside:
I read one message recently from someone who is waiting for the CD to arrive before starting any development, because the CD has the graphics. At the risk of offending said person, this doesn't make sense to me. I would suggest getting a game to work and to work well before worrying about what it looks like. Use a rectangle as a character if you have to. There is much to be done in game development before you ever have to start thinking about graphics.

Which reminds me: Anyone who is serious about game development should go to (url="http://"http://www.gamasutra.com")www.gamasutra.com(/url). There are some highly informative and helpful articles covering just about every aspect of game design/development.

I hope this gets the ball rolling. Great suggestion, Noel! Perhaps when I'm less busy working on The Greatest Game Ever Made (working title) then I'll contribute some artwork to our very own Coldstone Game Assets section.

I'm looking forward to hearing from other 'artsy' types about their techniques!

(This message has been edited by Lungfish (edited 03-12-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by Lungfish:
**Wow, you took the words right out of my keyboard.

There has been more than one complaint about the graphics (and lack thereof) on the Coldstone CD. This isn't an issue for me personally because I can draw. Others, on the other hand, aren't so fortunate. I'd like to help out where I can.

// -- snip -- //

I hope this gets the ball rolling. Great suggestion, Noel! Perhaps when I'm less busy working on The Greatest Game Ever Made (working title) then I'll contribute some artwork to our very own Coldstone Game Assets section.

I'm looking forward to hearing from other 'artsy' types about their techniques!

(This message has been edited by Lungfish (edited 03-12-2002).)**

Second Lungfish on the utility of those URLs (have been to all of them and returned, often).

I am still experimenting, myself. Have found Poser dead-quick for sprite creation, but there are distinct problems as well (custom character creation is a chore, and conforming clothing is not as compatible as it could be with complex animation). Intending to try the MeshWork route next. Also intending to try a few terrain tiles and stamps in Bryce "soon." I wish I could draw faster, as there are strong advantages to a pencil-art aproach.

------------------
everywhere else, it's --
"Nomuse"

Poser does take some getting used to.. but after a while... you can get around in it pretty quickly... my main problem is the size of the character graphics...(2-10MB) depending on size! I have to convert them into .png files because poser exports 32 bit pct files which look messed up in coldstone... I never could get it to work using .pct files unless I changes everyong by hand in photoshop which got old real fast... The thing I'm still wondering about is what are people using for tiles/stamps... I've tried bryce and photoshop but am just not getting the results I want... Any body else got any suggestions...

-Prof X

PS check out (url="http://"http://www.renderosity.com")www.renderosity.com(/url) for great 3D resources!

------------------
"We are the Music Makers...
We are the Dreamers of Dreams..."
-Willie Wanka

Quote

Originally posted by Professor X:
The thing I'm still wondering about is what are people using for tiles/stamps... I've tried bryce and photoshop but am just not getting the results I want...

What results are you looking for?

Good idea Noel! (and lungfish)
I would probably put in a section on interface design (not like dee's upcoming "how to do stuff you wouldn't normally be able to do with interfaces") and photoshop, but only if some other people would help with other stuff
As to 3D stuff, I'm not great at it. I can draw, but not in 3D. (I'm trying to learn) I think ill try Meshwork. But Strata, at least the freeware, stank. But its probably my inability, right now, to do 3D.

------------------
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

Quote

Originally posted by Lungfish:
What results are you looking for?

stuff that dosen't look like crap

realistic stuff... equal to or better than the stuff beenox did for the disc...

------------------
"We are the Music Makers...
We are the Dreamers of Dreams..."
-Willie Wanka

Quote

Originally posted by Professor X:
stuff that dosen't look like crap;)

That's a relief, otherwise I'd have to throw out my work-in-progress, Crap Quest™.

Er, moving on... I found the "How to Make Icons" tutorial at (url="http://"http://www.iconfactory.com")www.iconfactory.com(/url) somewhat helpful. Although the first two chapters just cover the basics of icon design, chapter 3 would be useful for the purposes of hand-drawing game sprites: (url="http://"http://www.iconfactory.com/howto_details.asp")"Details, Details, Details"(/url).

(RAMBLE)
Recently in another thread someone suggested using digital photographs as a basis for game graphics. I think that this can work with a lot of planning and strict controls to make sure that lighting and perspective remains consistent from one object to the next. However, this may turn out to be more time consuming in the long run than either modelling or hand-drawing.

Failing that, you can also scan in textures that you find lying around. Many professionals use this technique. With some tweaking you can create a nice tiled background for your game.

I'd also recommend going to 3D-related sites (like the ones given earlier) and mine them for models and textures to download. Check out (url="http://"http://www.stratacafe.com")www.stratacafe.com(/url) for an example. Of course, I don't recommend using other people's work in your game without permission, but as I said earlier the key in the early stages (I think) is to get the game itself working. Use what's available (even if it's just a red rectangle made in Photoshop) until you get all the events worked out, then start worrying about what the red rectangle should actually look like.
(/RAMBLE)

Quote

Originally posted by Professor X:
**Poser does take some getting used to.. but after a while... you can get around in it pretty quickly... my main problem is the size of the character graphics...(2-10MB) depending on size! I have to convert them into .png files because poser exports 32 bit pct files which look messed up in coldstone... I never could get it to work using .pct files unless I changes everyong by hand in photoshop which got old real fast... The thing I'm still wondering about is what are people using for tiles/stamps... I've tried bryce and photoshop but am just not getting the results I want... Any body else got any suggestions...

-Prof X

PS check out www.renderosity.com for great 3D resources!

**

Problem with Poser ain't the learning curve (was fast and painless to create a sprite off an old character file I had lying around). Problem has always been the effort in creating custom character elements from scratch. The Daz store and Renderosity downloads only go so far. Then, you have the problem of having layers of different meshes on the poor guy, and getting them to behave through the length of an animation isn't fun.

A custom, integral, mesh seems to me the only way to go. And probably easier to roll your own than try to combine Michael and the PhilC armor into a single new mesh.

That said, I'd still recommend grabbing a cheap copy of P3 to mess around with the basics.

Just got into brycing some terrain tiles. bringing them into photoshop now to make them seamless, make masks for the stamps. nothing i'm going to use for a game -- just messing around still. if i get enough in one style done i'll post it here, of course.

------------------
everywhere else, it's --
"Nomuse"

If you're looking for good character animation, try Animation:Master.
(url="http://"http://www.hash.com")www.hash.com(/url)

------------------
Ladies and Gentlemen, as you know we have something special for you at
Birdland this evening. A recording for Blue Note Records...
"Actions have reactions, don't be quick to judge, you may not know the hardships people don't speak of,
It's best to step back, and observe with couth, for we all must meet our moment of truth." - (url="http://"http://www.OHHLA.com/anonymous/gngstarr/moment/moment.gsr.txt")Guru(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by Commander Arashi:
Problem with Poser ain't the learning curve (was fast and painless to create a sprite off an old character file I had lying around). Problem has always been the effort in creating custom character elements from scratch. The Daz store and Renderosity downloads only go so far. Then, you have the problem of having layers of different meshes on the poor guy, and getting them to behave through the length of an animation isn't fun.

An excellent companion for Poser is Electric Image's underrated yet equally underpriced Amorphium Pro, ideal for modeling organic shapes. If you've got the Poser Pro Pack, you can use Amorphium to create entirely new figures. For those who have the standard version of Poser, or are daunted at the prospect of creating models from scratch, you can create some awesome morph targets for existing Poser figures. The tools in Amorphium are intuitive and easy to use, and make much more sense to paper-and-pencil art geeks like myself who can't really get the hang of manipulating vertices and polygons in standard 3D packages.

Regarding the proposed graphics tutorial, I've started working on a few different sections. If anyone wants to contribute, feel free to e-mail me the text of your tutorial along with any screenshots you want to include. This could turn out to be a great resource -- so let's get lots of contributors!

------------------
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something." -- Plato

A very good "tutorial" for all pixel artists out there:
(url="http://"http://pixeltutorial.cjb.net/")http://pixeltutorial.cjb.net/(/url)

------------------
Dee Brown
Beenox inc. - (url="http://"http://www.beenox.com")www.beenox.com(/url) (check our new web site!)
(url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/games/coldstone/")Coldstone Game Engine(/url) / (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/games/pog/")Pillars of Garendall(/url) developers

Here's a good trick to making your sprites with poser. Set the background to white.(white is transparent to coldstone) Get your character set up to what you want him/her to be. Go to the walk designer and set up to walk in place and nine frames in length. I use nine frames becase eight is the complete walk cycle in CS and the first and last frames are duplicates in poser. Apply and say done. Go to main camera view and adjust your main camera dials. The dials I am mainly concerned with are the: dollyz ( set to 1.4 or 1.5) , Xorbit -23 (sets figure to a slight look down on view), yOrbit is your eight compass positions. -90 = walking east. 90= west, 0= south, 180= north, 120=NW, -120=NE, 45= Swest, -45=SE. I think you get the idea. You can tweak the views as you like, but use the dials so you dont move the character out of alighn with each other. It makes fo a much smoother animation in CS. Now, (thanks to Ambosias great software, Snapz Pro2) the rest is easy. First open SnapZ and set it for pict (yes coldstone can see Snapz pict files!!) name a folder to save your 64 animated poses to. Choose the select button and you see marching ants seletion box. Push it to fit your animation character in walk position one. Here make the box as small as possible but average the size to fit the changing height and width of a walking figure. Center the selection, hit return. Render the next animation 2 and so forth on to number 8,remember 9 and 1 are duplicates so skip number 9, repeat the render and selection process. The selection box maintains its size so every box will be the same size. You may have to tweak the center point once in a while or adjust height and width. I found that keeping the selection as close to the same sizeas possible each time is the key to smooth animations.
Now that you did all 64 animation figures, open the folder you saved them into and you will see they are all numbered. But, now you have to name and number them to ColdStone protocal. IE, Hero_WalkN0000.pct thru Hero_WalkN0007.pct.
To make this numbering easier cut and past all but the last number, ie. Hero_WalkN000.pct and as you paste insert the last number after the 000_. I don't type, so this is fast for me. Put them in a folder you name and select your new character in the ColdStone Project / Game Options / Misc and test him out. I turn off all the access blocks so I can walk any direction at any place. Then I walk him across the bridges in the cave to see how centerd he is. But then you can adjust your access blocks to fit you animation. The great thing about using Snapz Pro2 is I don't have to convert anything to PNG. The figures are already to use from Snapz. Plus Snapz keeps all the figures the same size blocks. I hope this streamlines some of your animation work for you. I sure did for me. By the way some of the figures in Poser don't have to be rendered first, so that goes even faster. Letme hear what you think. Does it work for you too?

Quote

Originally posted by Commander Arashi:
**Problem with Poser ain't the learning curve (was fast and painless to create a sprite off an old character file I had lying around). Problem has always been the effort in creating custom character elements from scratch. The Daz store and Renderosity downloads only go so far. Then, you have the problem of having layers of different meshes on the poor guy, and getting them to behave through the length of an animation isn't fun.

A custom, integral, mesh seems to me the only way to go. And probably easier to roll your own than try to combine Michael and the PhilC armor into a single new mesh.

That said, I'd still recommend grabbing a cheap copy of P3 to mess around with the basics.

Just got into brycing some terrain tiles. bringing them into photoshop now to make them seamless, make masks for the stamps. nothing i'm going to use for a game -- just messing around still. if i get enough in one style done i'll post it here, of course.

**

Quote

Originally posted by rplate:
**

**

I may take a stab at a tute for using P3/P4 -- depending on how my experiments in custom meshes go.

(Yeah, I've got Amorphium, plus a spline/mesh/metaball modeller, and I've made a simple custom character before. And P4 accepts imports, with the caveat that .phi conversion was never implemented for the Mac -- got this straight from a programmer at Curious Labs. Work-around is to hand-edit a generic .cr2 in text; not hard to do, just boring.)

A trick for both walk designer and walk cycles based on BVH files; Poser's walk cycles start at maximum swing. Coldstone sprites look better if they start with the center of the cycle; both feet together in a stance as similar as possible to a standing posture. Anyhoo, trick is to copy+paste the last half of the walk cycle on to the first, then edit the frame 1 pose.

I still want to try this in A.M. instead. I expect to get much more fluid results (of course I'd take Maya or Max -- would that I could afford it!)

Does it sound like there may be a tutorial or FAQ in there?

------------------
everywhere else, it's --
"Nomuse"

Take a peak at "Groboto." The guy who created it is a gifted artist and talented developer. It's unlike any other modeling or 3D animation program you've ever seen. Cheap, too. It's, like, 40 bucks or something. (url="http://"http://groboto.com/index.htm")http://groboto.com/index.htm(/url)

You can create quicktime movies in it or you can modle with primitives and export to other applications. I've had some success exporting to Strata.

By the by, the latest issue of Computer Arts comes with a free full version of Poser 3 on the disk. :eek: You can probably find it online, too. But I'm the kind who really digs having somthing physical that I can manhandle.

-chuck

------------------
Grant me the strength to change the things I can, the peace to accept the things I cannot, and a Huge friggin' bag of money.

manhandling are you refering to the gluestripes for the cover-cd? they sure got me trough some empty hours..

I have a set of 'rough' and 'snow' tiles with some ponds, roads both tiled and sand, very realistic but on a small scale...
anybody interested? i'll try and zip em up but i think it's gonna be a large filesize ..

------------------
and it is- about 1.4 megs wich you can find at : (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/lthlgrphx/lethaltex.zip")www.geocities.com/lthlgrphx/lethaltex.zip(/url) .`

you can do anything you want with them, since i'm not going to use them..
enjoy - you can always enlarge them :), if anyone is interested i got the bases i used for them (a rough texture and a street texture) somewhere else...

p.s. i'd like to put the zip up here at the addons page, but i haven't got a mail program.. if you think it's worth it, just put them in.

(This message has been edited by -LethaLGraphiX- (edited 03-14-2002).)

(QUOTE)Originally posted by rplate:
(B)Here's a good trick to making your sprites with Poser.

Goto my webpage and download the HERO_Walk_000.pct sprites made with Poser and Snapz Pro2 (url="http://"http://www.vvm.com/~rplate/")http://www.vvm.com/~rplate/(/url) or if they put them on the Ambrosia, Coldstone add on files you can get them there.

I'm working on a game, but still overcoming the learning curve.

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by Professor X:
**stuff that dosen't look like crap;)

realistic stuff... equal to or better than the stuff beenox did for the disc...

**

Hey Professor X;
I noticed your front page layout for your game has Poser figures. I use Poser and someone asked me if there were any copyright concerns about using Poser stuff in a software game. What have you heard? I emailed AnneMarie at daz3d and am waiting an answer. I thought in the meantime, you might be able to give me some insights. All my sprites and some of my backgrounds will be out of Poser. Have you seen the halflingvillage scenes or the dwarf mines?

rplate@vvm.com

Toast
from Texas

------------------

Had a thought while reading latest articles at Gamasutra...

Assuming a library of Coldstone graphics, animations, maps, etc. begins to grow, aided and abetted by all of us here, there will begin to be compatibility issues.

I suggest that we (the posters of this board) join in recognizing, naming, and documenting certain standards as they become popular.

The first and most obvious such standard is P0G; there is already much graphics available within a certain style and scale. I would like us to recognize this as the "PoG standard" and make an effort to create a posted document detailing the pixel size and depths of human-sized characters, ground tiles, the camera angle and apparent scale of buildings, number of steps of walk cycle and the standard speed...in short, all the data we can collect to assist a creator in making resources which fit as seamlessly as possible into the existing resources.

With luck, some creator on this board will release a set of graphics that is recognizably different yet intriguing and useful, at which point we attempt to reach consensus on the existance of a new standard and work on creating its document.

Right.

Reading of Gamasutra can be dangerous to your health!

------------------
You see a Grue.

Quote

Originally posted by Lungfish:
**Wow, you took the words right out of my keyboard.

There has been more than one complaint about the graphics (and lack thereof) on the Coldstone CD. This isn't an issue for me personally because I can draw. Others, on the other hand, aren't so fortunate. I'd like to help out where I can.

For starters, for those of you who couldn't draw an egg to save your life, I highly recommend checking out the Game Assets section of idevgames.com. There are several tilesets and character graphics (people, tanks, cars, space ships, etc.) available for download. There may be license/usage issues -- read the readme's!

I also recommend trying Meshwork, available at www.codenautics.com/meshwork. This is my current tool of choice for creating characters and locations for the game I'm creating. The primary benefit of using a 3D modeling program for character design is that once the character is modelled you can pose it any way you want, which makes directional sprites a snap. I sort of figured this out the hard way; I hand-drew 8 isometric views of my main character before I realized that I only needed to create him once!

Note: There are also free versions of Amapi (amapi.idevgames.com) and Strata 3D (www.strata.com) available for download, although they are both somewhat more complicated to use than Meshwork.

Opinionated aside:
I read one message recently from someone who is waiting for the CD to arrive before starting any development, because the CD has the graphics. At the risk of offending said person, this doesn't make sense to me. I would suggest getting a game to work and to work well before worrying about what it looks like. Use a rectangle as a character if you have to. There is much to be done in game development before you ever have to start thinking about graphics.

Which reminds me: Anyone who is serious about game development should go to www.gamasutra.com. There are some highly informative and helpful articles covering just about every aspect of game design/development.

I hope this gets the ball rolling. Great suggestion, Noel! Perhaps when I'm less busy working on The Greatest Game Ever Made (working title) then I'll contribute some artwork to our very own Coldstone Game Assets section.

I'm looking forward to hearing from other 'artsy' types about their techniques!

(This message has been edited by Lungfish (edited 03-12-2002).)**

:: SNORTS! ::

Thanks alot for calling us 'not so fortunate'. FYI: Some of us CAN draw but are not so talented with 3D, and or do not understand the programs at our disposle.

I can make almost any object that is non-organic. I am currently learn how to use Lightwave 3D 7 and how to make a humanoid like object. I do agree however that it would be nice to set up a file to help anyone who wants help. I would like to help in anyway I can, thanks,

--Sniberal

------------------
'Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'
(BR)
Bored? Come visit (url="http://"http://www.-yinyang-.cjb.net/")Yin Yang(/url)!

Quote

Originally posted by Lungfish:
**Wow, you took the words right out of my keyboard.

There has been more than one complaint about the graphics (and lack thereof) on the Coldstone CD. This isn't an issue for me personally because I can draw. Others, on the other hand, aren't so fortunate. I'd like to help out where I can.

For starters, for those of you who couldn't draw an egg to save your life, I highly recommend checking out the Game Assets section of idevgames.com. There are several tilesets and character graphics (people, tanks, cars, space ships, etc.) available for download. There may be license/usage issues -- read the readme's!

I also recommend trying Meshwork, available at www.codenautics.com/meshwork. This is my current tool of choice for creating characters and locations for the game I'm creating. The primary benefit of using a 3D modeling program for character design is that once the character is modelled you can pose it any way you want, which makes directional sprites a snap. I sort of figured this out the hard way; I hand-drew 8 isometric views of my main character before I realized that I only needed to create him once!

Note: There are also free versions of Amapi (amapi.idevgames.com) and Strata 3D (www.strata.com) available for download, although they are both somewhat more complicated to use than Meshwork.

Opinionated aside:
I read one message recently from someone who is waiting for the CD to arrive before starting any development, because the CD has the graphics. At the risk of offending said person, this doesn't make sense to me. I would suggest getting a game to work and to work well before worrying about what it looks like. Use a rectangle as a character if you have to. There is much to be done in game development before you ever have to start thinking about graphics.

Which reminds me: Anyone who is serious about game development should go to www.gamasutra.com. There are some highly informative and helpful articles covering just about every aspect of game design/development.

I hope this gets the ball rolling. Great suggestion, Noel! Perhaps when I'm less busy working on The Greatest Game Ever Made (working title) then I'll contribute some artwork to our very own Coldstone Game Assets section.

I'm looking forward to hearing from other 'artsy' types about their techniques!

(This message has been edited by Lungfish (edited 03-12-2002).)**

Anyway, my e-mail is maxc@mac.com. And AIM is Sniberal or YinYang Ent. Contact me,

--Sniberal

------------------
'Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'
(BR)
Bored? Come visit (url="http://"http://www.-yinyang-.cjb.net/")Yin Yang(/url)!