If you were making a fantasy style game, and you were including non human races in the game, how would you spell the name of the race? Basically the reason I am asking is because there is a great deal of material out there, but no definite rules to follow. So:

Elves or Elfs?
Dwarves or Dwarfs?

Can anyone else see a problem here? I have a problem here mostly because so few people actually stay consistant about whichever names they use, or whether they use the related ones (such as Dwarves and Elves, or Dwarfs and Elfs) but instead "mix and match". How would you do it in your game? And which one would you use?

Also, when people go off into the realm of creation and make up their own names for various places, people, monsters etc... what are you looking for in a name? Do you prefer something plain and sensible such as:

"John stabbed a troll outside the village of Getrick"

or something ( I think) ridiculous like this

"Jakulas stabbed a bloration outside the metelkare of Mareskantia."

Or would you prefer a middle ground:

"John stabbed a bloration outside the village of Mareskantia."

Are there any particular conventions you would like to use, or that you would like other people to use when making games? Or do you really not mind at all?

-Andiyar

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"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"

Provided that Elf, Elves, Dwarf, Dwarves, etc, are constructs, it really doesn't make a difference. You won't really be offending anyone by spelling the names differently (except maybe a rabid Tolkien fan)

However, if you wish to follow general English grammar rules, then a word that ends in an -f will end in -ves when it is pluralized. As an example, one rogue can be called a thief, but many would be called thieves.

While it's cool to come up with alternate names for commonplace things, I believe there is a point where practicality should win out. Giving something like 'village' an unpronounceable alternate name is not practical. There is the argument that it leads to 'immersion' but that is nonsense; look at how well fantasy/sci-fi authors are able to create immersive worlds without inventing a new language (or if they do, they don't force you to learn it).

On the other hand, many respected and very highly regarded authors have as a matter of practice concocted words and bent grammatical rules to fit their style and vision as necessary.

I think there's a fine line between these two areas, and I hope anyone considering walking it will at least make an attempt to do so with care. If you fail, the results can be ugly.

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People who claim the sky is falling obviously aren't aware the earth is falling, too.
--
"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" --Benjamin Franklin.

(This message has been edited by sanehatter (edited 10-22-2001).)

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Originally posted by sanehatter:
Provided that Elf, Elves, Dwarf, Dwarves, etc, are constructs, it really doesn't make a difference. You won't really be offending anyone by spelling the names differently (except maybe a rabid Tolkien fan)

Yes, I'd actually agree with this. However, many people I know do think differently, and insist that "this is how it must be."

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However, if you wish to follow general English grammar rules, then a word that ends in an -f will end in -ves when it is pluralized. As an example, one rogue can be called a thief, but many would be called thieves.

Very true. I love the English language! Seriously, here

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While it's cool to come up with alternate names for commonplace things, I believe there is a point where practicality should win out. Giving something like 'village' an unpronounceable alternate name is not practical. There is the argument that it leads to 'immersion' but that is nonsense; look at how well fantasy/sci-fi authors are able to create immersive worlds without inventing a new language (or if they do, they don't force you to learn it).

I am sorry about that. I was merely attempting to give an extreme example. For myself, I believe that the words "village" "town" and "city" are quite alright.

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On the other hand, many respected and very highly regarded authors have as a matter of practice concocted words and bent grammatical rules to fit their style and vision as necessary.

Also true. In many cases, making up the words can be almost as fun as writing the story! However, as you state further down, it shouldn't be taken to extremes.

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I think there's a fine line between these two areas, and I hope anyone considering walking it will at least make an attempt to do so with care. If you fail, the results can be ugly.

Any other opinions?

-Andiyar

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"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"

I would stick to original versions, but could play with the idea of inventing new ones (i.e. i could use elves, but decide to give the dwarves a new, different, name). As for the grammar, i think i would bend it to my needs (as in everiday life, i suppose )
Ras

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I would keep words for basic English (i.e. towns, villages) the same, but for names of characters, monsters, towns, or my own created professions, anything goes. The names of my characters range from modern (Daniel, Robert, John, Philip) to mythical and foreign (Thyrr, Hans, Alec) to downright strange (Tai'lur, Ingar, Harkov). Also, Elves and Dwarves.

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We tell stories of heroes to remind ourselves that we too can be great.

I have always thought that Elves were tall (as used in Tolkein)
while Elfs were the little guys santa enslaved (with the pointed shoes)
Dwarves: metal/stone workers who live underground (ie Tolkein again)
Dwarfs: Disney invention (in Snow white)

And as far as vocabulary for a game go's,
If i have to learn a new language just to play a game, I wont be playing that game.

I think making up creature/object/place names is ok, just dont replace the names of common things: (like calling an apple a flum, or some such nonsense)

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"Dont be angry, not everyone can be as cool as me."
" "Genghis Khan," he said, "you are a wanker; you are a tosspot; you are a very tiny piece of turd. Thank you." With that he retreated into his ship and flew off.
The was a nasty kind of silence.
Later that year Genghis Khan stormed into Europe in such a rage that he almost forgot to burn down Asia before he left." Douglas Adams

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Originally posted by Picquilarius:
I have always thought that Elves were tall (as used in Tolkein)
while Elfs were the little guys santa enslaved (with the pointed shoes)
Dwarves: metal/stone workers who live underground (ie Tolkein again)
Dwarfs: Disney invention (in Snow white)

Actually Elves/Elfs and Dwarves/Dwarfs have been around in most European mythologies for millenia. It was Tolkien who first used the word "Dwarves" in print, but "Dwarfs" is far from a Disney invention. Oh, and yes, there have been several different description of Elves over the years, most having to do with pixies, fairies etc. Tolkien's Elves are more similar to the Tuatha De'Anan (or Sidhe) of Irish mythology.

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I think making up creature/object/place names is ok, just dont replace the names of common things: (like calling an apple a flum, or some such nonsense)

Unless of course you had a specific fruit/vegetable named a flum with apple properties but a sweeter, succulent taste.....I got carried away. Sorry.

-Andiyar

I apologise for the above post. Whilst I meant every word I said, IE5.1 in OS X sometimes jumps the gun and hits buttons before I do. Thus, I could not finish typing username & password (It doesn't like auto-login either!). If you've ever read the replies to one of my Chronicles, you'd know what I mean....

Of course, having a 12400bps Internet connection never helps either!

-Andiyar

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"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"

I'm personally against using elves, dwarves, trolls and such. They are very heavily used clichés, and do nothing to add to the originality of a game. Why use someone else's ideas when you can use your own?

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For every beautiful answer there is an even more beautiful question.

I had always thought (and this is entirely in my own humble opinion) that Tolkien deliberately used Elves/Dwarves instead of Elfs/Dwarfs to make clear the fact that he was writing of a separate race. That is, Elven would be descriptive of the distinct features of Elves, physically, and culturally, whereas elfin brings to mind a small, thin and undernourished person. The same goes for Dwarves. But as has been said, it is entirely up to the writer what effect he/she wants to use. SF&F; has always been about making your own rules

The use of different names for ordinary objects, such as "metelkare" for village, is, I think, again a great way of divorcing the reader from everyday, mundane life, to this fantastic world full of adventure and alien life. I'm sure many of you have noticed that many Worlds as written by their authors have relatively familiar settings such as the hero's hometown, called a "village", which is applicable to each settlement of similar stature within that particular kingdom or cultural context. Then the hero travels to a strange land and the word "village" is substituted with something different and alien, like "metelkare". The reader feels as if this "metelkare" thing is quite different than a "village" even though they both serve the same purpose. The mental image that the reader has is different for these two objects. So again, it is the effect the writer has upon the reader that is important and the balance between cool-sounding nonsensical names or dry, but less silly and more understandable, use of commonplace labels that the writer uses to achieve it.

As for elves, dwarves and trolls being somewhat hackneyed, I have to agree. In fact, they've been so overused that those names have become part of our language! Well, at least in fantasy nerddom anyway Although we may have different ideas of what a troll may look like, we can both agree that they are big, bad and singularly stupid. So if you had a big, bad, and singularly stupid creature in your game, you could call it a troll, or, if it's right outside a metelkare, you can call it a bloration.

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Look at what you do!?

Back when I worked at a marvelous comic book company in New York we learned that the best stories incorporated at least SOME element of the familiar.

For instance:

Story about aliens coming to Earth: Cool, we all know Earth, it's interesting to see what happens when aliens arrive.

Story about Earthlings going to an alien planet: Cool, we're all Earthlings, it would be slick to see what happens when we go someplace strange.

Story about aliens on an alien world: Wherein the plot revolves around Norbledox the Winkorz deveeblefestering the hylox. Great for people on acid, hard for "normals" to get their minds around.

This theory was proven over and over again in the real world- a comic about an Atlantean Prince, hanging out in Atlantis, was far less interesting than a later version which placed him in New York City as the CEO of a major corporation.

That's one thing that always bugged me about the Star Wars aliens: OK, so Jabba the Hut is a giant slug. That kind of tips me off to the fact that he's an alien creature. I don't really need the added intrigue of having to read subtitles under some BS alien language. Before you flame me for daring to impugn Lucas, I have three words for you- Jar Jar Binks. No, make that four- "Meesa."

I think the aliens in Star Wars would be a lot less annoying, and therefore more interesting, if they took the Star Trek license (annoying Klingon talk notwithstanding) and had them communicate in standard English. As it is, I classify them in the same category as writers (or game designers) who resort to "hyper whacky" naming conventions to make a not-so-subtle point about the "alienness" or the situation.

Here's another example I read somewhere: An poor writer lets the reader know they are in the future thusly: "Fleebo activated the thorium space portal and entered the ship." A GOOD writer makes the same point more subtly: "The door irised open and Fleebo entered the ship."

Bottom line: Call 'em Elves and have them live in villages.

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marc siry
century city, usa