Personally, I am a real time person, as long there are quick commands or a pause function ala BG (damn I loved that space bar, every time i play any game now, I instictively hit the space bar whenever combat starts:P). I just don't see why poeple would go for slow, boring, dull turn-based, when flashy exciting realtime is around. Of course this is (obviously) just my opinion.
(If I were less tired and lazy, I might snip many of the pro-turn based comments in here, but I'm sure we have all read them)
So, I wish to ask those people who do prefer turn based why they do so?

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"For Example: Sunny days make me happy, rainy days make me sad." "But you can have fun on a rainy day too." "Your truth can be changed simply by how you accept it." "That is how fragile truth is for a human being."

Quote

Originally posted by Mashish:
**Personally, I am a real time person, as long there are quick commands or a pause function ala BG (damn I loved that space bar, every time i play any game now, I instictively hit the space bar whenever combat starts:P). I just don't see why poeple would go for slow, boring, dull turn-based, when flashy exciting realtime is around. Of course this is (obviously) just my opinion.
(If I were less tired and lazy, I might snip many of the pro-turn based comments in here, but I'm sure we have all read them)
So, I wish to ask those people who do prefer turn based why they do so?
**

Are you trying to start a flame war here too?

Seriously, there are two questions here and if the two are mixed together in responding then tempers could flare.

The two questions are:

1. Do you prefer to play turn-based games over real time and, if so, why?

2. Would you prefer that Coldstone use a turn-based battle system and, if so, why?

Skip

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...it wasn't me...

Question: does the FF style battle meter count as turn-based or realtime? FF1 was definitely turn based, Phantasy Star Online is definitely realtime, but there are a lot of games that are somewhere inbetween. Where do we draw the line? If battle meter based games are turn based, then does that mean that Baldur's Gate is turn based, since it is essentially the same, the only difference being that the player controls when to pause. If battle meter based systems are real time, then I see no need for turn based combat, since it drastically reduces the usefulness of having characters that are fast.

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(Insert Signature Here)

that's actually a very good point. I guess that when I talk about "turn based," I'm refering to battle meter games, and not the old exile style of "make a sandwich, then parry the attack" gaming (nothing wrong with exile: I'm a big time Spiderweb man, but not for the battle system). Wyvern is right: BG isn't real time. It's still measured in the speed at which you recharge your battle meter. I can watch and count out the seconds between swings. The RPGs that come closest to real time are probably diablo, or Everquest/Ascheron's Call (although Diablo is hardly an RPG...)

I guess my personal epitome of meter based combat is Chrono Trigger or (sometimes, although not frequently) the later FFs (if any of you have followed my posts, you'll know I'm just a tad biased towards CT...).

However, I'd honestly like to experiment with real time, so whether or not we get a choice or it's all real time doesn't matter much to me. I have a feeling down in the pit of my stomach that some smart person out there (definetely not me!) will be able to jury-rig a meter-based combat system anyway. So, cudos to whatever battle system I purchase on "the big day."

(edited for stupidity)
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Do not follow me for I may not lead. Do not lead for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me, either. Just leave me the hell alone.
-Jedi

(This message has been edited by jmitchell (edited 02-14-2001).)

Admittitantly I never played very much of Final Fantasy VII, but from what I did play, thee combat system kinda annoyed me. I think it was because it seemed to me that it was obviously a turn based system, with a vague attempt to make it look realtime. This really isn't a good reason to not like the system, I know, but I just can't help it, it annoyed me.

I see what you mean about Bg being pretty much the same system, but I loved it (for some reason ) I think it is more realtime, since you could just stand there and let them attack each other, whereas in turn based (and Meter style) you have to tel everyone what to do each round. Yeah, I think that is what differentiates RT and TB in my oppinoin, if the characters can be told to attack, and will keep doing so until told to do something else, ala Bg, it is real time. Whereas if the need to be given instruction every round as to what to do in that particular round, it is turn based.

What do people think?

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"For Example: Sunny days make me happy, rainy days make me sad." "But you can have fun on a rainy day too." "Your truth can be changed simply by how you accept it." "That is how fragile truth is for a human being."

The big problem with realtime is that much more artwork has to be made, and that you also will need to be a good artist to make it look good.
You can´t have a realtime game without any walking animations on your NPCs.

by the way...
I don´t like to call the diablo games RPGs since the only thing they have in common with RPGs is the experience levels, and the statistics.
As RPGs they suck
As action games they are OK.

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"This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let´s not bicker and argue about who killed who."

(This message has been edited by Knight of NI (edited 02-15-2001).)

-29°
He is here...
:: an ethereal vapor enters the room, taking form, now stands the apparition::

But for the most part I still prefer the calm strategic edge of turn-based.
It allows you to play it almost like chess, you can sit and think while viewing your opponent. Realtime reduces combat to hack slash cast dodge, type action, which I'm good at(action/adventure).

When RPG's cross into realtime they lose their roots(d&D;/board game) and cross into adventure simulations.

The RPG is no pressure game by nature. No time limit, free roaming, no pressure (In FF7 I left the Meteor in the sky for a month, no rush ).

I don't want; a fighting game, a simulation, a action game , an adventure game, a shooter.
I want; an Epic-Fantasy-Strategy-Group Dynamic-Controlled Enviroment-40 hr plus-take my time-dungeon crawlin',search every corner-15 second spell sequence, role play game...

...So Says The Chill!

Calling all challengers...

<< (url="http://"mailto:chill_rx@yahoo.com")mailto:chill_rx@yahoo.com(/url)chill_rx@yahoo.com

I think that realtime is great. Take Zelda, they are great games. Have you ever played Secret of Mana(SNES) another realtime rpg that is great. There are also lots of turn based rpgs that are great, so make the maker of the game able to choose from lots of diffrent battle system.

May the Mana be with you!

Quote

Originally posted by Knight of NI:
**The big problem with realtime is that much more artwork has to be made, and that you also will need to be a good artist to make it look good.
You can´t have a realtime game without any walking animations on your NPCs.

by the way...
I don´t like to call the diablo games RPGs since the only thing they have in common with RPGs is the experience levels, and the statistics.
As RPGs they suck
As action games they are OK.
**

The man, Has a point , they are technically no longer RPG's
but action games with RPG features, games such as Diable and Myth are noting more than action/strategy games.

~Ill_a_nois

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(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ill_a_nois/ring.html")Join the CGE Developers Webring here(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ill_a_nois/index.html") My main page(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ill_a_nois/randd.html") My current project page if you like it, give me a buzz(/url)
(url="http://"mailto:ill_a_nois@yahoo.com")mailto:ill_a_nois@yahoo.com(/url)ill_a_nois@yahoo.com

The problem with real-time is that you have to hugely limit the number of options available to a character. Anything with a magic - or combat - system one-fourth as rich as a pen-and-paper RPG's is basically impossible in real-time. There are workarounds, like assigning common spells to function keys (but what if you really need a spell that isn't bound to a key now?) or having the computer to do the choosing for you. Oni pulls this off fairly successfully with respect to combat moves - you can press the same key combination and get any number of different results depending on relative position, whether the defender is armed, etc. - but as has been pointed out above, this requires serious animation chops and a fair amount of AI to boot.

I've been working on a system similar to SAGA's, where spells can be assembled on the fly by mixing basic magical energies in different proportions, with different areas of effect, etc. I've got a lot of extra work on my plate if I have to adopt this to real-time combat. :frown: I suppose if I had to I'd meld the two approaches above - have the computer auto-defend, and allow the player to bind favorite magics to function keys.

Unless someone out there has a better solution? I'm all ears. I haven't played BG, so I'm not familiar with the space-bar mechanic. Does that allow you to, e.g., dig through your pack for a potion, or find a spell? Or is it just a whole-game pause so that you can think?

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James

(This message has been edited by Amorph (edited 02-20-2001).)

Quote

Originally posted by Amorph:
Unless someone out there has a better solution? I'm all ears. I haven't played BG, so I'm not familiar with the space-bar mechanic. Does that allow you to, e.g., dig through your pack for a potion, or find a spell? Or is it just a whole-game pause so that you can think?

The game will start again if you enter your inventory in BG but most characters can have several weapons and objects in his belt and all the memorized spells can be reached from a special menu when the game is still paused. So you can change weapons, choose potions and spells, but you can't change armor, when the game is paused. I like that solution a lot.

I might remember it wrong now but I think the spell casting in Black and Whit was really cool. By moving your mouse in different ways you cast different spell. In the movie I saw the player moved the pointer like a star and that created a fireball. Maybe that can be annoying if you have a lot of spells but it looked good.

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Quote

Originally posted by RaZ:
I think that realtime is great. Take Zelda, they are great games. Have you ever played Secret of Mana(SNES) another realtime rpg that is great. There are also lots of turn based rpgs that are great, so make the maker of the game able to choose from lots of diffrent battle system.

Yeah, my favorit RPG on SNES is Secret of Mana 2 (only released in Japan). The combat was real time, but when you went to your invetory/magic menu, it paused while you were choosing. Good system for some games, doesn't work well in others.

stupid school computers....

::An Avalanche rumbles in the distance, the quake is made audible,words form::

If you've played myth,Realmz,ultima, or seen the POG preview page, then you might be able to surmise that
,to my dismay, CGE looks to be in realtime
(url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/news/upcoming/images/pog_11.jpg")http://www.AmbrosiaS...ages/pog_11.jpg(/url)

(url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/news/upcoming/images/pog_07.jpg[/url")http://www.AmbrosiaS...im...pog_07.jpg(/url(/url)

::the avalanche roars::
Damn you...
...So Says The Chill!

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unseen...
unwanted...
unlawful...
undead...

HEY!..........I MEAN COME ON..IF THIS DISCUSSION IS SO DAMN.......DIFFERENT WHY DON'T THEY JUST MAKE IT REALBASE AND TURNBASE...HAVE A CHOICE!!!!?!?!?!

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Yes my frige is running..why?, oh OH MY GOD ITS ESCAPED AGAIN!

Quote

Originally posted by Brent Wallace:
**HEY!..........I MEAN COME ON..IF THIS DISCUSSION IS SO DAMN.......DIFFERENT WHY DON'T THEY JUST MAKE IT REALBASE AND TURNBASE...HAVE A CHOICE!!!!?!?!?!

**

Quote

Originally posted by andrew:
**
There will be exactly one battle system in Coldstone when we ship it; it will be something that we decided is the best balance available. People will bitch about it no matter what: some people will hate it, others will love it.
**
and elsewhere...
**
I think (people's) expectations of a "full featured RPG editor" are unrealistic. Regardless of what is included in Coldstone, you or someone else will be disappointed by the lack of something.

No, Coldstone will not allow you to make any kind of game you want; there will be some restrictions. Future versions of Coldstone may expand on the feature set available to you.

However, Coldstone is significantly more flexible than anything else available -- not only is is much easier to use than edtitors for Exile/Reamlz, etc., but it is also much more powerful and flexible in terms of what you can do with it.

Much of this won't be evident to you until you learn the inner workings of Coldstone.
**

sorry to steal lines from andrew, but, like the man said... the design of ColdStone is not up to us: it's up to Ambrosia, and more specfically, it's up to Beenox.

although I'm sure our input is helpful in making the engine better, we are not the ones with the programming knowledge/experiance, and we are not the ones devoting our lives for a few years to make this engine. However "cool" it would be to have a fully editable, free-ranging, on-line massive multiplayer super-duper whatever RPG creator -- it isn't neccessarily feasible or economical. So, Ambrosia/Beenox will put out whatever they feel is the best mix between what we want and what the most reasonable product to manufacture is.

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Do not follow me for I may not lead. Do not lead for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me, either. Just leave me the hell alone.
-Jedi

**
(MOD) (Obsolete) Arena type location no more available.
(MOD) (Obsolete) Encounters removed. Encounter editor no more accessible and both "Specific Encounter" and "Call
Encounter" event action type has been removed.
(MOD) Battle system and map control: The control is now with the mouse only (keyboard no longer supported). The
battle system is now real time. Still need work however.
**

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the issue is pronounced dead read the log
(or at least the excerpt)
the CGE has been bastardized into a modern marvel of technology, no mor turnbased except through deception and psuedo techniques

::dissaptes::

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unseen...
unwanted...
unlawful...
undead...

Quote

**
(MOD) Battle system and map control: The control is now with the mouse only (keyboard no longer supported). The battle system is now real time. Still need work however.
**

Hmm, no keyboard support? How exactly will this system work? Is it now a matter of point and click auto-attack? I certainly hope not! Plus, realtime means quick decisions, and without keyboard support and quick-keys, this will be difficult. One final question, will it have support for gamepads and joysticks?

~Saphfire

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I seem to have missed something...
An RPG is, by definition, a Role Playing Game. Therefore it is a game in which you play as someone else. Traditionally, RPGs have statistics (D&D; come to mind) as to how accurately you hit and how much damage you do. No where do I see a rule that says it has to be either turnbased or realtime. So what I have missed (and I always have, no matter which webboard I go to) is how Diablo isn't an RPG. I'm not saying it is per say. I am simply saying that it is by no means absolutely not an RPG. See what I'm saying?

As for Realtime/Turnbased, It all depends on the graphics, 2-d is generally better for turnbased (think Cythera, M:tG, and Chess) and (fake) 3-d is generally better for real time (think diablo).

My dollar and 2˘.

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-TheDarkDragon
C M? M R Snakes.A R Not! O S A R! C M B D I's?
L I L B! A R Snakes!

Quote

Originally posted by TheDarkDragon:
**An RPG is, by definition, a Role Playing Game.
**

By that definition, every game becomes an RPG. It is true that the above is the basic definition for role playing games, but the more widely respected genre goes much further than that. In Mario 64, Half-Life, and almost any other game you can think of, you take on the "role" of another character and play there world. I am not yet aware of any "life" simulations. Yet, these games are not grouped in the RPG category for obvious reasons. I cannot accurately define an RPG, because it is viewed differently by people the world over. This is perhaps what makes the development of Coldstone so difficult and dramatic. You must decide for yourself. In my opinion, Diablo is an action game, because it involves one person agaisnt hordes of enemies in a hack and slash environment. This doesn't neccessarily make it bad, but it is far from my definition of an RPG. Even though they are very different, I consider Zelda to belong to this genre as well. With that, decide for yourself what you want an RPG to be; it is all about imagination.

~Saphfire

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This is why RPG can only be defined by examples, not words. Anybody can twist RPG to envelope every game but the true RPGs are like saphire said, the ones with stats, quests, and usually some form of magic/abilities.

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Apple Computer - The name of microsoft's research and development division
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