I think it would be a good idea to discuss options we'd like to see in coldstone, or just request/discuss options for anything from combat to game interfaces, the more options we have, the better.

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Man who laugh last not get joke

::Attempts to draw energy from thousands of mystic power stones::
::Attempts to cast summon divine programer::
::Attempts to summon Dee or Andrew::

Well, considering the best time for the topic would have been about 2 months ago I don't really see the point of posting feature ideas. In the words of Dee "We want to release this SOME time". I'm not saying I'll get mad if you engage in rampid speculation, I might even participate. Even though I know the answers. I can't answer your other questions for obvious reasons.

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Was it the Chad?
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Make sure you visit the Coldstone Hotline Server run by GlueBubble. The IP is:
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(This message has been edited by DarkBlade (edited 01-13-2001).)

(This message has been edited by DarkBlade (edited 01-13-2001).)

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Originally posted by Madman:
**

Well, I'm sure a lot of us are planing games right now, so I was wondering if it would be okay to ask about options/features for creating games.

One major queston, it seems that coldstone can create somewhat advanced interfaces and graphics, but how far can it go? Can it create flat, two direction paths where you just go left and right, climbing ladders or going down stairs/ladders/trapdoors (Like some NES games or the tower scenes in Lufia2)**

(putting on my favorite pedant's hat)
I'm a beta tester and what follows is based only on the well-known fact that Coldstone is tile based and allows for multiple maps/locations:

The standard 'top-down' view is a 'design choice'. Sanehatter prefers a 45 degree angle view for his game. But remember that 'all is illusion' and you can have maps/locations that have a 90 degree view, ie. looking horizontally at a wall/ladder/tower... whatever. 'Solidity' of tiles (no trespassing zones) are a feature of all games. The angle of view of any map or location is in the designers complete control. How you design the graphics and what the map/location is of creates the illusion of horizontal/vertical/somewhere-in-between on the playing field. The choice of player icon view (top of head/front/back) helps create the perspective angle. If this angle gets larger than 45 degrees, then the vanishing point perspective can become troublesome in open landscape views, but if you make the actual player window small enough, far away objects don't appear to the player. All this becomes a (difficult) factor if you desire too much 'realism' in your game. Eventually you are forced to consider 'VR' and a venture capitalist as partner. A good story does NOT require 'realistic' graphics and scenes to be successful. In fact realism can (and often does) get in the way. The more 'realistic' you make a game the more noticeable and objectionable the non-realistic parts become... And there will always be many of those.

Quote

**Another question, just how limited would combat situations be? Could you do real time swing weapons/damage enemies, or encounter enemies, go to a combat screen, and fight without time passing or any other effects happening outside the battle, or could you integrate both? (which I have yet to see in any game, but would certainly like to!)
**

This is one area that can never please all. Whether the battles are real time or turn based depends on what type of game you design. If the player is in control of only one character, then real time battles could work. If the player is in control of multiple characters then turn based is required. Unless it is more like a strategy game (Myth) and then you can have a mixture of both (seizing control of one or more to direct their AI elsewhere). As for real time animation during battle, well, see above... The more realistic it is the more glaring the discrepancies from realism.

If you are creating an RPG then remember that the player is role-playing and character growth is of utmost importance... Much more so than creating a 'real' experience or simply fighting endless 'real' battles. Games are ultimately a form of escapism for the player and not all players are full of bloodlust

Skip

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...it wasn't me...

I take it you have never played SoM or SoE Skip? Those are real-time and there are multiple characters (though you control only 1 at a timeand the AI does the others).

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Was it the Chad?
--------------------------------
Make sure you visit the Coldstone Hotline Server run by GlueBubble. The IP is:
65.4.86.190

Quote

Originally posted by DarkBlade:
**I take it you have never played SoM or SoE Skip? Those are real-time and there are multiple characters (though you control only 1 at a timeand the AI does the others).
**

That was precisely my point... The player can control only one character at a time. The built-in AI controls the others. RPG now becomes STRATEGY. Not the same.

While playing (not authoring) do you wish to be a 'General' or a 'Private'? Generals thrive on strategy while hiding... Privates fight for their lives, honor and hopeful advancement.

Coldstone allows us to create games that others play... We are each creating for an unknown audience of unknown numbers. As it now stands, by far and away, most computer users don't play games. Why? Because we are not writing games that appeal to their 'escapism'. We do not either care or understand what most would like in a game. Every now and again someone writes/releases a game that sells more than 75,000 copies and we (creators) are amazed at the subject/style of it... Think Barbie, Deer Hunter, Myst.

As I said before, Console games are NOT computer games and they (in my opinion) are not to be emulated in our work... Simply because a computer game CAN be much more interesting and challenging, and include built-in self-modifying code with the ability to save games (with complex data) and move characters to other games/scenarios. Can be played repeatedly with different characters/personna. And allow the player to develop very personal player characters. Impossible with Console games.

I realize that many if not most of the readers of this board enjoy Console games. I am not disparaging that. I owned one of the first Nintendo sets sold some 15 or so years ago. But Coldstone is much, much more than 'Console game emulator'. And there are scores (or hundreds) of millions of computer users that do not play games. Why? One reason is that we are stuck in a rut... Writing for each other, for other computer and console game players and not for the folks who would LOVE to find a fun, interactive, challenging and escapist use for the 'computer'.

I repeat... Yes, you can copy, borrow from, emulate other computer/console games that you personally enjoy(ed). But WHY? It has ALREADY been done! Strike out! Create! Invent! New genres, styles, plots, heros, villians! Create new realities!

You and Coldstone CAN do it!

Peace,

Skip

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...it wasn't me...

Quote

Originally posted by Madman:
**IF YOU'RE A BETA TESTER GET DEE/ANDREW'S CONSENT IF YOU POST!
**

The beta testers already agreed to do that.

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(url="http://"http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/skyblade/omega_conspiracy/index.html")The Omega Conspiracy(/url) - An (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/games/evo")EV Override(/url) Novella
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" I may look like Jesus, but I can't walk on water." - Jay Berndt, (url="http://"http://www.giantrecords.com/kilgore/")Kilgore(/url).

Just to put my two cents in (you get a lot for two cents with me, at least when we're talking philosophy...)

Quote

Originally posted by SkipMeier:
As it now stands, by far and away, most computer users don't play games. Why? Because we are not writing games that appeal to their 'escapism'. We do not either care or understand what most would like in a game. Every now and again someone writes/releases a game that sells more than 75,000 copies and we (creators) are amazed at the subject/style of it... Think Barbie, Deer Hunter, Myst.

I'm going to let my cynical side respond to this first part...

Most people I know who don't play games, or play them only occasionally complain that they're too involving. They want something they could sit down and play for five minutes if necessary. My brother has been a console gamer longer than I have, and he'll play only action games or ports of arcade games. He's got a Dreamcast right now and his two favorites are Crazy Taxi and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2. These are games you could sit down and play for five minutes or two hours.

Similarly one of my college roomates didn't like most games for the same reason. He didn't like consoles either, but found a lot of Ambrosia's earlier games and other similar ones quite fun, games like Maelstorm, Chiral, etc, because there's not a whole lot of personal involvement. You fire them up and play, and when you're done wasting time you quit.

I imagine most people who play Barbie/Deer Hunter type games do so for a similar reason... these games are really simple and basically one step up from TV for them.

I don't watch TV, and if I only have five minutes to play a game, well, I'd rather make some tea instead.

As for other genres, well...

Those who play Myst / Riven and other games in that genre (graphical adventure?) often go for the puzzle solving aspects and the environments created by the artists, most of which have a heavy dose of surrealism (not that I don't like surrealism, I just have little patience for some of the puzzles). Text Adventure Games were a predessor to these. If you want to make a game like this, you can do it with something like supercard (after all, myst was created with hypercard).

Online RPGs tend to become a substitute for real life. I haven't played UO, Everquest, Clan Lord, etc, but I know people who do and those things scare me.

First person shooters appeal to most people for the adrenaline rush, and the crazy few who live in them for the "I'm better than everyone else" ego tripping they get for each frag.

Warcraft/Command & Conquer/Age of Empires/etc appeal to meticulous strategists, or what you referred to as the hiding General.

A game like Diablo fused several genres together (Action, various Fantasy and strategizing elements of RPG, the randomness of Rogue, and networkability) to create something that has mass appeal.

RPGs, both Console and Computer tend to appeal towards those who would rather be "privates fighting for their lives," who wish to have stories to tell about their adventures. Most of these games tend to have some emphasis on strategy as well... what spell combos are the best, maximizing your party's potential through equipment, etc.

The major difference between console and computer is that console games tend to focus on story while computer RPGs tend to focus on accomplishment. That is, most console RPGs will give you a task, where you have to fight through many enemies to get to a boss, who you defeat to progress the story. Most computer RPGs I've played tend to give you a task and let you figure out how to get it done. The stories tend to be a little more nuanced because they're not aimed at the teen angst crowd.

If you don't have goals in your game (like, say, the demo for Realmz), well, you don't have yourself a game, you have a "toy." Digital Pets and the Sim- software are examples of electronic toys. There is no built-in goal, You set that for yourself. Similarly, a small hard ball and a wooden club are toys until we set some rules on how they are supposed to be used, whereupon we have a game (Baseball or Cricket in this case). I've never liked the Sim- software for this reason, I like having objectives set for me (again, because I prefer to be the "private fighting for his life").

Of course, neither console or computer games can really hold a candle to pen and paper RPGs.. unless you're a "Rule Lawyer". I played pen & paper games because they encouraged telling a story as a group, and the rules were merely guidelines. I find it sad that CCGs came along to replace them for the most part, CCGs are very strategy oriented, which I don't like.

Quote

As I said before, Console games are NOT computer games and they (in my opinion) are not to be emulated in our work... Simply because a computer game CAN be much more interesting and challenging, and include built-in self-modifying code with the ability to save games (with complex data) and move characters to other games/scenarios. Can be played repeatedly with different characters/personna. And allow the player to develop very personal player characters. Impossible with Console games.

That's where we come to another major difference between Console and Computer RPGs... console games tend to give you a fixed character to play whilst Computer ones let you define your own character(s). A dramatic story is easier to tell if you have a fixed character, since the developer already knows their background, limitations, etc. It's typically harder to do this sort of thing when you have a player generated character, it would take another human (or some damn good AI) to foster this kind of character tie-in to the story. I'm not saying either system is inherently better, but this is how things are typically done.

I don't remember what it was called, but I remember something about a computer software suite which was supposed to emulate the Game Master/Bunch of Players relationship of pen-and-paper games, and I think if implemented correctly, that could prove really interesting.

Quote

I realize that many if not most of the readers of this board enjoy Console games. I am not disparaging that. I owned one of the first Nintendo sets sold some 15 or so years ago. But Coldstone is much, much more than 'Console game emulator'. And there are scores (or hundreds) of millions of computer users that do not play games. Why? One reason is that we are stuck in a rut... Writing for each other, for other computer and console game players and not for the folks who would LOVE to find a fun, interactive, challenging and escapist use for the 'computer'.

Part of this is the nature of the genre. I'm starting to find fantasy games rather droll now a days, since they hold so many common conventions. Rescue the princess, save the world, stop the evil, etc. I'll agree, yawn.

That, and the fantasy genre (swords & sorcery in particular) tend to be better experienced when some degree of imagination is involved. You know why most fantasy movies suck? We don't have to imagine things when the movie producers took care of that for us, and they reduced the audience to spectator. This is one of the reasons I don't like Motion Video in games, because it tends reduce the roll of the player to spectator since the actual game itself doesn't use the MV. Coldstone has the ability to play quicktime movies, sure, but I'd much rather use my in-game art for cutscenes. FWIW, I plan on using them very sparingly myself.

Quote

**I repeat... Yes, you can copy, borrow from, emulate other computer/console games that you personally enjoy(ed). But WHY? It has ALREADY been done! Strike out! Create! Invent! New genres, styles, plots, heros, villians! Create new realities!
**

I'm definately agreeing with Skip here.

One of the best ways to do this: don't do market research , because you'll end up trying to cater to everyone. Lowest common denominator phenomenon and all. Second thing: throw out all your preconceptions. The Surrealists' Book of Games is good for this.

Third: what are you interested in?

I personally have a love for suspense / horror film & literature (not teen hack & slash, I'm talking Hitchcock or Lovecraft), and martial arts movies (when they're more imaginitive than "you killed my master, prepare to die"), so I'm blending the two in hopes of creating something a little unusual.

So what are you interested in? It might be interesting to see a present-day RPG where you play a federal agent try to prove a conspiracy theory wrong, a la X-Files, or you play a guy livin' in the ghetto, and you want to escape gangsta life.

Here ( (url="http://"http://www.scottmccloud.com/comics/icst/icst-2/icst-2.html")http://www.scottmccl...t-2/icst-2.html(/url) ) is an interesting article by Scott McCloud (author of Understanding Comics , something probably everyone who produces for any medium should read) about how the internet offers the possibility new distribution models which would allow comics to reach different audiences. Go read it, Scott's an interesting writer, and what he has to say here can apply to games as well.

In the film industry you have a lot of crap being aimed at a lot of people because it makes money. There's the occasional gem, but for the most part everything is formulaic. You also have the 'indie' films without the big budgets of the studios and these typically don't even try to have mass appeal. Consequently, there's some really good stuff (a lot of crap, too, but mostly from people wishing they were Steven Speilberg) that would never see the light of day if the studio system of the thirties-fifties was still around.

The game industry is somewhat similar. If you want to make good money, you aim you game at what people want. If, like me, you're working on a labour of love and don't care about the money, well, maybe you'll produce something interesting. I hope to.

One of the reasons I'm excited about Coldstone is that it has the possibility of allowing people to create games which transcend current genres. I just hope enough people out there can see that possibility well enough to make it happen.

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I grew up being told that anyone could be president... now I believe it.

(This message has been edited by sanehatter (edited 01-14-2001).)

well sanehatter I am impressed by the length of that post, if nothing else
Are your wrists aching right now? I really hope you have over 52 wpm...

Well I'm only gonna respond to the "cutscene" part. I think the main reasons cutscenes are used, or the only excuse to use them, is a part which the player normally doesn't have control over. Example: Your main character kisses someone, or the main character kneels down and prays. This helps to show that your main character is more human, etc. If movies are used for things like running away from an exploding dragon then it's probably a bad idea. I mean in most RPG's you can make your charater run away from something, so why not here instead of in a cutscene, so the player has more fun and you don't have to waste time making a movie. Some games blended your actions into a cutscene(ending of Tomb Raider 2, you run from the temple/lair of the dragon as it explodes, then it goes into a cutscene of you running and flying into the air as the great wall of china is reduced to rubble).
In FF7 the makers let you control one giant cutscene(isn't that what the game was supposed to be, one giant movie?). But you really didn't control much, just the rate at which people said things etc...........
I think cutscenes and movies work good at the end and beginnings of games. Like an intro and a conclusion. I'm going to try and make cutscenes for the ending of each "act" of my game. Since I have no idea how to, this should be very interesting........

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"I did not choose my role, and I suspect Gerrard did not either"

Lorenoth: A few of my favorite games (Deus Ex and STVEF) have cutscenes that are integrated right into gameplay. They aren't fully rendered cutscenes and the graphics are exactly the same as the game but it switches perspectives, from first person to third. Most of the time this happens when the characters talk and I like this a whole lot more then dialogue boxes. I hate dialogue boxes, I like my characters to talk to each other and maybe have subtitles, but I don't want to have to read dialogue boxes. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that it is possible to implement a lot of cutscenes and have them add to the game, not like Final Fantasy where I found myself thinking, "When is this crap going to be over" (most of the cutscenes were boring, VERY boring. The people also looked fake, VERY fake).

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Was it the Chad?
--------------------------------
Make sure you visit the Coldstone Hotline Server run by GlueBubble. The IP is:
65.4.86.190