JacaByte said:
Shoulda held this game hostage for a while. That would have made everybody so much more happy.
No need; darth_vader already does that.
EDIT: It's been 24 hours since the proposal was made. If the time reaches 48 hours since then (i.e. 24 hours from now ) with no 7th vote, I'll declare darth_vader AWOL and proceed without him.
This post has been edited by SoItBegins : 05 September 2012 - 11:42 PM
Fun fact: The Candy Kingdom’s helicopters have sugar-glass windows and fruit-leather superstructures.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Vegetable King woke up from his nap and scanned the votes. "Unanimous rejection! That's a first, even if two of you had to change your votes to do it." The King looked over at Eugene Chin, who had his head down on a comfy-looking pillow. "Now, regarding our next proposal..."
With his staff, the Vegetable King expertly hooked the pillow out from under Eugene. When his chin hit the table, Eugene woke with a start.
"Your turn to choose names," the king said, emptying out the bowl. "I suspect you'll make a better proposal."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mrxak votes REJECT at 7:59 PM.
retep998 votes REJECT at 8:11 PM.
JacaByte votes APPROVE at 7:52 PM, then changes his vote to REJECT at 8:21 PM.
Eugene Chin votes REJECT at 8:29 PM.
Techerakh votes REJECT at 8:30 PM.
Shlimazel votes APPROVE at 8:58 PM, then changes his vote to REJECT at 9:26 PM.
darth_vader votes REJECT at 6:08 PM the next day.
Motion is rejected.
Eugene Chin , it is your turn to make a proposal. This proposal should have four names, and everyone will need to APPROVE or REJECT it.
Including yours, there is enough time for 4 more proposals.
@soitbegins, on 06 September 2012 - 08:29 PM, said in GTW 41:
mrxak votes REJECT at 7:59 PM.
retep998 votes REJECT at 8:11 PM.
JacaByte votesAPPROVEat 7:52 PM, then changes his vote to REJECT at 8:21 PM.
Eugene Chin votes REJECT at 8:29 PM.
Techerakh votes REJECT at 8:30 PM.
Shlimazel votesAPPROVEat 8:58 PM, then changes his vote to REJECT at 9:26 PM.
darth_vader votes REJECT at 6:08 PM the next day.
Eek. The traitors are playing information denial on us.
Let me rearrange this list to see if it makes any more sense another way:
@soitbegins, on 06 September 2012 - 08:29 PM, said in GTW 41:
In my timezone,the proposal went up at 10:49 PM.
JacaByte votes APPROVE at 7:52 PM. JacaByte: ACCEPT: 10:52 PM. mrxak votes REJECT at 7:59 PM. mrxakstates he will reject at 10:56 PM.
mrxak: REJECT: 10:59 PM. retep998 votes REJECT at 8:11 PM. JacaByte firstposts his response to mrxak at 11:08 PM.
retep998 states he will reject at 11:10 PM.
retep998: REJECT: 11:11 PM.
JacaByte finishes edits to his response to mrxak at 11:11 PM. JacaByte changes his vote to REJECT at 8:21 PM. JacaByte: REJECT: 11:21 PM. Eugene Chin votes REJECT at 8:29 PM. Eugene Chin -I state I will reject at 11:25 PM.
Eugene Chin: REJECT: 11:29 PM. Techerakh votes REJECT at 8:30 PM. Techerakhstates he will reject at 11:29 PM.
Techerakh: REJECT: 11:30 PM. Shlimazel votes APPROVE at 8:58 PM. Shlimazelstates he will accept at 11:51 PM.
Shlimazel: ACCEPT: 11:58 PM. Shlimazel changes his vote to REJECT at 9:26 PM. Shlimazelasks if he can change his vote at 12:24 AM.
Shlimazel: REJECT: 12:26 AM.
Shlimazel states he has changed his vote at 12:37 AM. darth_vader votes REJECT at 6:08 PM the next day. The next day, darth_vader: REJECT: 9:08 PM.
darth_vader never posted in the thread during this proposal.
(EDIT)
JacaByte switched his vote before I posted? The only things that happened between the change were mrxak and retep998 saying they'd reject.
This post has been edited by Eugene Chin : 06 September 2012 - 09:42 PM
Not an official proposal.
I'm leaning towards:
darth_vader
Eugene Chin
mrxak
Shlimazel
I have no proof that mrxak is innocent - but for metagame reasons I believe him to be so.
His complaint that being cast as a traitor last game guaranteed the failure of the innocents, and the stated fear that the continuous failure of the innocent side to win any Resistance game would drive people to not play anymore, seems a believable complaint coming from him.
Further, if he wasn't inundated with such requests, SoItBegins is more likely than Mackilroy to be swayed by such; if mrxak actually asked for a non-traitor role.
That's poor reasoning, and I realize that; but mrxak is also not displaying his primary tell this game (UNLIMITED WALL OF TEXT WORKS : The aggression is a part of that, but it's the wordcount you should watch), and neither is he avoiding the spotlight by coasting (An alternate villain behavior, when the other has been overused in a recent game).
Techerakh's rotten.
This is not proof that he's a traitor, but his behavior in the proposal stage for Mission #2 really has no excuse.
mrxak had proposed himself, me and Shlimazel - and Techerakh opened that exchange by saying he believed mrxak to be a civ - and then slamming mrxak over nothing at all. JacaByte has displayed similar behavior, slamming mrxak over nothing.
If he thought mrxak was innocent, logically Techerakh should have had a complaint with either me or Shlimazel. But every time mrxak tried to get Tech to voice what this complaint was, Tech clipped anything mrxak was actually asking, and slammed him relentlessly with what was left.
That isn't debating. It isn't even communicating - nobody reading that had any better idea what his complaint with me or Shlimazel was afterwards than they did before.
The next mission, Techerakh puts himself up, with me and Shlimazel.
If he had a realistic problem with either of us the previous mission, then that proposal made no sense. If he had a problem with reusing committee's, then it still made no sense, as he was reusing the Mission #2 committee. If he had no problems with the committee, then pulling mrxak for believing in it makes no sense.
And mrxak arguing for a committee he believed would succeed should not have set Techerakh off that badly.
This is not proof that Techerakh is a traitor - but there's no way it makes sense for an innocent player.
The outcome of Mission #3 tells me that Techerakh or Shlimazel is a traitor. In that comparison, Techerakh's behavior leans against him.
darth_vader is hard to read.
Despite what I think of his behavior, Techerakh actually puts it best:
@techerakh, on 05 September 2012 - 10:41 AM, said in GTW 41:
My feelings on mrxak have fluctuated (that's what happens when someone posts a lot— would you believe my feelings on darth are practically unchanged?).
A game that allows a secret ballot makes it so that a player doesn't even need to post in the thread - something that darth_vader has taken advantage of. I should note that, during Game 40, darth - as a traitor - decided to lay low.
The last time darth actually posted in thread was during Mission #1, Proposal #3 - explaining his own proposal.
It bears repeating: the last time darth_vader posted was during his own proposal in the first mission.
In a Werewolf game, we'd have lynched him for lurking by now. In an mrxak Werewolf game, mrxak would have killed him off outright for non-participation.
And, dollars-to-doughnuts, he would have turned out to be innocent half the time. If he never posts, it's hard to tell - which is actually what makes that a viable villain strategy.
retep998 has a simple standard for rejecting proposals: If he isn't on it, he'll shoot it down.
If - if - retep998 were a villain, this would bite him in the ass, as - if a proposal favoring the traitors were put up, without his name on it - retep998 couldn't vote in favor of it without blowing his own cover.
That said, JacaByte has tapped retep998 twice, despite having tried to spin darth_vader's and retep998's voting history as suspicion of darth_vader. Further, from JacaByte's last proposal; since I'm suspicious of JacaByte, and not of Shlimazel, retep998 would have to be the other traitor on that list.
Shlimazel has been responsive to reasonable arguments, and was wiling to reject retep998's proposal for Mission #2, despite being on it, because he had doubts about Techerakh being on it.
Looking over the voting history, Shlimazel doesn't make sense as a traitor when paired with anybody I suspected.
I have more, but past this point it's too much rambling and forum-post url's. I'd like to get some feedback while I have the chance.
My highest suspicion falls on Techerakh, followed loosely by JacaByte.
I can't rule out either retep998 or darth_vader as traitors, but if I'm right about Tech and Jaca, it doesn't matter.
The unanimous rejection of the last proposal threw me, but at this point I can either run in double-think circles, or dismiss it as a head-game.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
mrxak had proposed himself, me and Shlimazel - and Techerakh opened that exchange by saying he believed mrxak to be a civ - and then slamming mrxak over nothing at all.
"Slamming" him? It was a legitimate question.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
If he thought mrxak was innocent, logically Techerakh should have had a complaint with either me or Shlimazel. But every time mrxak tried to get Tech to voice what this complaint was, Tech clipped anything mrxak was actually asking, and slammed him relentlessly with what was left.
Who are you, mrxak's apprentice? Ignoring your decision to post a wall of text wherein you say that wall of texts are a tell (but only for mrxak, I suppose, not you, right?), you're picking up his absurd arguments. Is it bad BBform (or INVISIONform or whatever this board is) to cut out the parts of the initial post you're not responding to? In order for clarity of discussion, I quote the passage of the post I am directly responding to. Other parts of the post that are related but not crucial are left out, as are parts that I have no response to (often, because I am in agreement). I wasn't aware this was a "rotten" posting style or made me a traitor.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
That isn't debating. It isn't even communicating - nobody reading that had any better idea what his complaint with me or Shlimazel was afterwards than they did before.
Well, you're 3/3 in your mrxak imitation, congrats. This is classic mrxak, claiming to speak for the whole group. Are you sure that maybe it's just you who can't figure it out? (Also, whoops, here I go slamming mrxak again!) Anyway, if you have any actual questions for me, feel free to ask and I'll make it as simple as I can for ya. If you just want to pontificate, well, carry on.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
The next mission, Techerakh puts himself up, with me and Shlimazel.
If he had a realistic problem with either of us the previous mission, then that proposal made no sense. If he had a problem with reusing committee's, then it still made no sense, as he was reusing the Mission #2 committee. If he had no problems with the committee, then pulling mrxak for believing in it makes no sense.
So by your logic, if I liked the round 2 team (which I did), what I should have done was re-proposed it without putting myself on the team? Yeah, a traitor would never do that…
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
retep998 has a simple standard for rejecting proposals: If he isn't on it, he'll shoot it down.
If - if - retep998 were a villain, this would bite him in the ass, as - if a proposal favoring the traitors were put up, without his name on it - retep998 couldn't vote in favor of it without blowing his own cover.
Read the last game.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
Shlimazel has been responsive to reasonable arguments, and was wiling to reject retep998's proposal for Mission #2, despite being on it, because he had doubts about Techerakh being on it.
Sorry to re-use a line, but—yeah, a traitor would never do that…
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
The unanimous rejection of the last proposal threw me, but at this point I can either run in double-think circles, or dismiss it as a head-game.
Strikes me that it places suspicion squarely on the folks who changed their votes—interestingly enough, the two folks whom I already suspected. After this post, though, I'm more torn between Shlim and Gene than I was before.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 07:58 AM, said in GTW 41:
<snip>
I'm so proud :laugh:.
Thanks for not making it an official proposal yet, but I do like the one you're considering. You're the least suspicious person from round three, which means you're very good or you've got Techerakh quite worried. As I said a while ago, I would have preferred you choosing the third round's proposal. Hopefully yours is the last one of the game.
I really would like a little more feedback, though.
Because if I'm wrong about Shlimazel, then it really does matter whether I choose between retep998 and darth_vader.
Gene, you're either lying or wrong about Shlim. It strikes me as boneheaded to assume that I'm the traitor and readily take the other two people from last round on this mission.
If you don't want me (because you don't like my posts?), fine, but kick Shlim off. I'm not even sure you can be trusted to pick a team regardless, but if you take Shlim there's no question it should be rejected.
@techerakh, on 07 September 2012 - 07:47 PM, said in GTW 41:
Gene, you're either lying or wrong about Shlim. It strikes me as boneheaded to assume that I'm the traitor and readily take the other two people from last round on this mission.
If you don't want me (because you don't like my posts?), fine, but kick Shlim off. I'm not even sure you can be trusted to pick a team regardless, but if you take Shlim there's no question it should be rejected.
Am I correct in summarizing your complaint as "Don't include more than two of the people from Mission #3 on your proposal"?
This argument doesn't make sense.
I have a choice of four to make among seven. If I get only one wrong, the innocents still win.
Since Mission's 1 and 2 were successful, Mission #3 was a make-or-break for the traitors. Even to maintain cover, they could not risk letting it pass, if they were on it. If they weren't doing cheaty-PM's or off-forum emails to coordinate, then even if there were two traitors on Mission #3, they couldn't risk voting Succeed to maintain cover if the other one decided to maintain their cover as well.
For this reasoning, I believe that there was exactly one traitor on Mission #3.
I hold myself to be innocent; I'll point to my early rejection of Techerakh's proposal as an argument to that effect. Again, Mission #3 was make-or-break for the traitors. If I were a traitor, it doesn't make sense for me to reject my own place on a make-or-break committee, and risk no other traitors being put forward in other proposals.
I hold myself to be innocent; so, if I exclude both Techerakh and Shlimazel, combinatorically I have to include one traitor, as I'm excluding one innocent.
If Techerakh were really innocent, trying to figure which of retep998 or darth_vader was a traitor should have been a relevant question. Instead, I've only seen one-tone rejection because Shlimazel from him.
I could still be wrong about Techerakh.
SIB's choice of macro image on the success of Mission #2 implies that there was a traitor on that Mission.
The fact that SIB took so long writing up the success of Mission #2 could be taken as a sign that he had expected it to fail, and needed to re-write it when the traitor voted succeed - it'd be a reasonable explanation for that strange delay.
These thoughts gnaw at me.
But that's still not proof.
And, even if I am wrong about Techerakh, I can afford a single mistake on this proposal. Which makes choosing an innocent from darth_vader or retep998 all the more important.
Or maybe I'm completely wrong, and the traitors are Shlimazel, retep998 and darth_vader, in which case this'll fail no matter what I choose.
But we're not seeing those arguments from Techerakh. We're seeing single-point rejection because Shlimazel is in consideration, and because I'm making the proposal. We can afford one bad pick this proposal, and Techerakh could've been arguing about how to avoid a second bad pick.
I'm running in circles, and the only people talking are Tech and mrxak.
I'll give it another night for responses, and commit tomorrow morning.
If I forget to come back and change it by Noon tomorrow - It'd be 9:00 AM SoItBegin's time - please assume I've proposed :
darth_vader
Eugene Chin
Shlimazel
mrxak
Quote
SIB's choice of macro image on the success of Mission #2 implies that there was a traitor on that Mission.
The second 'mission succeed' image was prepared before any proposals were made for Mission #2.
Quote
The fact that SIB took so long writing up the success of Mission #2 could be taken as a sign that he had expected it to fail, and needed to re-write it when the traitor voted succeed - it'd be a reasonable explanation for that strange delay.
In the case of Mission #2, I put the load screen up several hours before I actually started writing the mission results. I do not write any story text in advance.
This post has been edited by SoItBegins : 07 September 2012 - 10:00 PM
Y'know, it just occurred to me: if I believe Mission #3 had exactly one traitor, and I believe mrxak to be innocent, then the Mission #3 committee + mrxak would also only have one traitor. Why did nobody suggest that to me?
Oh, right. Only Techerakh and mrxak can be bothered to speak up.
I want to know what it is that you think is so suspicious about me, Techerakh, because unless I'm missing something you haven't actually said.
As far as makeup goes, I've been thinking, and I'm uncomfortable with having darth_vader on this proposal. He seems to have been lying low this entire game, and he seems to be getting onto this proposal purely on the basis of not having said enough for anyone to be suspicious of him. Even Eugene doesn't seem to have a good reason to put him on it. Is staying silent a better way of making yourself trusted than speaking up?
I had suspicion of mrxak briefly when I made my last post, however that post was also poorly informed. If I'd seen Eugene Chin's post about how fast Jacabyte's post was, maybe I would have taken another look and seen that it was an ill considered proposal. I'm not sure if mrxak is any more suspicious than anyone else or not.
I have no objections to Eugene Chin.
My discomfort with darth being on this proposal leads me to Refuse it. I would prefer to see further proposals before we commit ourselves. Should something go wrong, we only have one more mission left, after all, and it will be easier for the terrorists to fail than this one.
(edit) As soon as the lineup was changed from Eugene-mrxak-Shlimazel to Eugene-Shlimazel-Techerakh, the mission failed. I'm not prepared to vote for a proposal with Techerakh on it at this point on that basis either, if you're changing your proposal to that.
This post has been edited by Shlimazel : 08 September 2012 - 12:19 AM
Eh, wasn't going to change it to that anyway.
I haven't committed to any of the aired lineups yet - that's why I was waiting for morning. But if I pull darth_vader from the lineup, I have to tap retep998.
If I believe JacaByte to be guilty, then I should conclude JacaByte's last proposal had two traitors on it. I believe myself and you to be innocent - that leaves JacaByte and retep998.
Unless JacaByte deliberately put up a proposal with only one traitor on it, intending it to get shot down - that might explain the solid wall of rejections. In which case JacaByte's proposal is a headgame, designed to protect darth_vader.
Or unless I'm wrong about JacaByte, and he's not guilty at all.
(EDIT) Or maybe JacaByte jumped the gun so hard that last proposal, he forgot he needed a second traitor on it. We've seen weirder.
This one game long past, it turned out that one of the traitors forgot who was really on his side, and PM'ed a bunch of incriminating stuff to a player he didn't know was an innocent. The other players spent the rest of that game killing traitors from the leaked list, until the last one tricked them into double-think, and got them to kill the innocent who the list was leaked to. (/EDIT)
If I remember correctly, the next three proposers will be darth_vader, Shlimazel and retep998 - and if it gets to retep998 this mission, we'll be forced to accept it, or lose immediately.
If I'm having this much trouble picking between darth and retep998 to sit on a committee, I'd be even more uneasy having them choose the committee's. And we don't get to go back and forth between who proposes.
This post has been edited by Eugene Chin : 08 September 2012 - 01:24 AM
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 11:54 PM, said in GTW 41:
Y'know, it just occurred to me: if I believe Mission #3 had exactly one traitor, and I believe mrxak to be innocent, then the Mission #3 committee + mrxak would also only have one traitor. Why did nobody suggest that to me?
Oh, right. Only Techerakh and mrxak can be bothered to speak up.
That's a very good point.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 09:23 PM, said in GTW 41:
I hold myself to be innocent; so, if I exclude both Techerakh and Shlimazel, combinatorically I have to include one traitor, as I'm excluding one innocent.
If Techerakh were really innocent, trying to figure which of retep998 or darth_vader was a traitor should have been a relevant question. Instead, I've only seen one-tone rejection because Shlimazel from him.
That's a fair objection. I haven't been using my spreadsheet in this game for IRL reasons, and I wasn't paying close enough attention to the math. My only response is to suggest that you don't drop me from the team then (I'm the innocent you'd be excluding).
darth v. retep is a totally legitimate question to be asking. However, neither of them have given us anything useful to go on, which is why I haven't chimed in there. Honestly, I have no idea between the two. Shlim, on the other hand, has a 50+% chance of being a traitor.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 09:23 PM, said in GTW 41:
Or maybe I'm completely wrong, and the traitors are Shlimazel, retep998 and darth_vader, in which case this'll fail no matter what I choose.
But we're not seeing those arguments from Techerakh. We're seeing single-point rejection because Shlimazel is in consideration, and because I'm making the proposal. We can afford one bad pick this proposal, and Techerakh could've been arguing about how to avoid a second bad pick.
This seems an unfair complaint. I'm comfortable with the assumption that Jaca is a traitor, which means that retep and darth cannot both be traitors. We can afford one bad pick, and to my mind that bad pick could be retep/darth, since we have nothing on them. I am trying to avoid the second bad pick by telling you to axe Shlim.
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 09:23 PM, said in GTW 41:
darth_vader
Eugene Chin
Shlimazel
mrxak
If this is the proposal, I'm rejecting. There's at least one traitor on this (Shlim/Gene), and well possibly another (darth, most likely).
@eugene-chin, on 07 September 2012 - 11:54 PM, said in GTW 41:
Y'know, it just occurred to me: if I believe Mission #3 had exactly one traitor, and I believe mrxak to be innocent, then the Mission #3 committee + mrxak would also only have one traitor. Why did nobody suggest that to me?
Y'know, that's not a bad setup. I'd vote for that.
@shlimazel, on 08 September 2012 - 12:11 AM, said in GTW 41:
I want to know what it is that you think is so suspicious about me, Techerakh, because unless I'm missing something you haven't actually said.
Process of elimination, buddy. Gene here is doing a good job of convincing me he's innocent. That leaves you.
@shlimazel, on 08 September 2012 - 12:11 AM, said in GTW 41:
As far as makeup goes, I've been thinking, and I'm uncomfortable with having darth_vader on this proposal. He seems to have been lying low this entire game, and he seems to be getting onto this proposal purely on the basis of not having said enough for anyone to be suspicious of him. Even Eugene doesn't seem to have a good reason to put him on it. Is staying silent a better way of making yourself trusted than speaking up?
OK, so the question here is, is Shlim genuinely trying to get darth off the team because retep is the traitor, or is Shlim trying to distance himself from darth in order to maximize the chance of one of them getting on the fifth team?
@eugene-chin, on 08 September 2012 - 01:10 AM, said in GTW 41:
If I remember correctly, the next three proposers will be darth_vader, Shlimazel and retep998 - and if it gets to retep998 this mission, we'll be forced to accept it, or lose immediately.
If I'm having this much trouble picking between darth and retep998 to sit on a committee, I'd be even more uneasy having them choose the committee's. And we don't get to go back and forth between who proposes.
This is a good objection. So—let's revamp your current proposal, shall we? 
Eugene has reconfirmed his current proposal:
darth_vader, Eugene Chin, mrxak, Shlimazel.
Five people have voted.
This post has been edited by SoItBegins : 08 September 2012 - 02:29 PM
