So as not to interfere with the game in progress

What the f*ck? I was going to let this game play out, since, against all odds, it seemed that the game was actually being played fairly. However, as I have discussed with some of the other players, there are some serious problems with the way in which this game has been run. The Werewolf Game, upon which this is based, is supposed to be about players-vs-players. However, in both of the games that SIB has run, there are so many secret roles with completely unknowable abilities (like the dead rising or people making kills after they have been effectively lynched) that the game is really more of a player-vs-GM game, which is ridiculous. I would be perfectly willing to play in another straight up werewolf game/game of global thermonuclear war, but this game is dysfunctional.

By my count, GutlessWonder should still be alive and EKHawkman should be dead, or EKHawkman should still be alive and GutlessWonder dead. egroeg should be dead, jrsh92 should be in jail, and Lt._Anonymous and I should still be alive. Instead, I don't even know the rules of the game that I am playing. In short, I don't want this to sound like sour grapes, but what the f*ck is going on?

xander

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 06:27 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

What the f*ck? I was going to let this game play out, since, against all odds, it seemed that the game was actually being played fairly. However, as I have discussed with some of the other players, there are some serious problems with the way in which this game has been run. The Werewolf Game, upon which this is based, is supposed to be about players-vs-players. However, in both of the games that SIB has run, there are so many secret roles with completely unknowable abilities (like the dead rising or people making kills after they have been effectively lynched) that the game is really more of a player-vs-GM game, which is ridiculous. I would be perfectly willing to play in another straight up werewolf game/game of global thermonuclear war, but this game is dysfunctional.

By my count, GutlessWonder should still be alive and EKHawkman should be dead, or EKHawkman should still be alive and GutlessWonder dead. egroeg should be dead, jrsh92 should be in jail, and Lt._Anonymous and I should still be alive. Instead, I don't even know the rules of the game that I am playing. In short, I don't want this to sound like sour grapes, but what the f*ck is going on?

xander

I am dead, my role was retaliation. I got to kill someone if I got killed or copped. Some one probably had a assassination role that just was activated and someone had an anti nightkill role that they could use to help others as well. Its been done before. Its being played fair and you are just angry at SIBs past game ok. So sit down and shut up. You died because Temp probably had a retaliation role like me that took longer to activate. I like the way the game is being played right now and just wait till it is over to complain. In the meantime you are dead but you don't get to come into the bar at the bottom of the lake.

This game, I kept a complete play-by-play log.

Here's what's going on:

1. EKHawkman is dead. His special role resulted in the death of GutlessWonder.
2. egroeg would be dead right now, but the ghost of Templar98921 messed the entire thing up by killing you.
3. Lt._Anonymous was killed by someone else. This person used their special role to call in a hit on him.
4. jrsh92 would be in jail right now, but kickme used his lawyer ability to get him off.

The game is being played fairly. I'm not meddling like I was the last game. I planned and balanced all the roles in advance.

And yes, that includes the ghost. However, that was a one-time thing.

This post has been edited by SoItBegins : 29 April 2008 - 06:55 PM

I have to say:

Xander's right.

Your game has fallen prey to one of the major flaws of Game 17: Too many super-powers.

Another thing: This is the second time you've tagged mrxak for a super-role. If I had been stupid enough to sign up for your game, I believe you would have tagged me to be another of your two unlucky terrorists.

On the issue of terrorists: There's only two. That's not near enough for a game of this size, even without super-roles.

This post has been edited by Eugene Chin : 29 April 2008 - 08:19 PM

@eugene-chin, on Apr 29 2008, 06:16 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

I have to say:

Ok... I'm not sure I'm going to like this...

@eugene-chin, on Apr 29 2008, 06:16 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Your game has fallen prey to one of the major flaws of Game 17: Too many super-powers.

It's a fair cop, guv'nor.

@eugene-chin, on Apr 29 2008, 06:16 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Another thing: This is the second time you've tagged mrxak for a super-role. If I had been stupid enough to sign up for your game, I believe you would have tagged me to be another of your two unlucky terrorists.

I had to invite mrxak specially.

BTW: If you had signed up, I would not have made you a terrorist. I originally envisioned you as one of the consigliere and mrxak as the other.

@eugene-chin, on Apr 29 2008, 06:16 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

On the issue of terrorists: There's only two. That's not near enough for a game of this size, even without super-roles.

I think I'll keep my response to that under my hat for now. (enigmatic grin)

This post has been edited by SoItBegins : 29 April 2008 - 08:53 PM

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 06:27 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

What the f*ck? I was going to let this game play out, since, against all odds, it seemed that the game was actually being played fairly. However, as I have discussed with some of the other players, there are some serious problems with the way in which this game has been run. The Werewolf Game, upon which this is based, is supposed to be about players-vs-players. However, in both of the games that SIB has run, there are so many secret roles with completely unknowable abilities (like the dead rising or people making kills after they have been effectively lynched) that the game is really more of a player-vs-GM game, which is ridiculous. I would be perfectly willing to play in another straight up werewolf game/game of global thermonuclear war, but this game is dysfunctional.

By my count, GutlessWonder should still be alive and EKHawkman should be dead, or EKHawkman should still be alive and GutlessWonder dead. egroeg should be dead, jrsh92 should be in jail, and Lt._Anonymous and I should still be alive. Instead, I don't even know the rules of the game that I am playing. In short, I don't want this to sound like sour grapes, but what the f*ck is going on?

xander

@eugene-chin, on Apr 29 2008, 08:16 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

I have to say:

Xander's right.

Your game has fallen prey to one of the major flaws of Game 17: Too many super-powers.

Another thing: This is the second time you've tagged mrxak for a super-role. If I had been stupid enough to sign up for your game, I believe you would have tagged me to be another of your two unlucky terrorists.

On the issue of terrorists: There's only two. That's not near enough for a game of this size, even without super-roles.

That is ridiculous, guys. He had a retaliation role. This is not an unbalanced role, and it's one that has shown up in in GTW before as the takedown upon death power. Kickme's lawyer power is just like an SDI, except that the player is still out for one round before returning alive and well to the table. Or maybe it's like the infernal machine power (returns player to life). It doesn't matter, both of those have shown up before, neither is unbalanced.

Eugene, we haven't gotten a single cop yet. While it looks like the Mafia will probably win, the game isn't so one-sided as to make it not fun. I think I had the wrong number of evil players in my game, and you didn't jump on me for that. It's a small mistake. I think you're only nitpicking now because you're still mad at SIB. Just get over it. I'm enjoying this round, the powers are keeping it interesting enough and I can tell that SIB is putting a lot of time and effort into his story posts. I respect that, and I think it's proof that he's learned from his mistakes.

Edit2: not in the game topic anymore so no votes need be cast here.

This post has been edited by darth_vader : 30 April 2008 - 04:30 PM

Super roles? Like what?? The only "super roles" are the consierge or whatever and they can't vote. The only thing super about them is not being able to die but thats balanced out. All the other roles have appeared before. SIB is doing a great job and those who say other-wise are just sore cause he messed up a little in 17. Only one actual person in the game is complaining and thats cause he died. And his death was entirely fair.
Like you sig says Mr. Chin, You could be wrong and you most definitely are. So yall need to quit ragging on SIB

This post has been edited by EKHawkman : 29 April 2008 - 09:06 PM

My complaint is not that the game is one sided. My complaint is that the rules are not spelled out, and that there are so many special roles that this isn't a game of psychology and psych outs, but a game of meta-gaming, and gaming the system to procure advantage. I must admit that, as a cop, I was taking advantage of that to some extent (though probably not to the full extent possible), but that doesn't change the fact that there are too many unknown rules and unknowable landmines to walk across. I was no longer even considering Templar or EKHawkman, because both had been removed from the game.

At this point, we know that there are at least three people that had the power to kill anyone, possibly at any time (EKHawkman, Templar, and Lt._Anonymous' assassin). That, alone, is unbalancing. This is coupled with two seers (even if they are flawed), and at least one protection role that can (it seems) act retroactively. Not to mention that the cops are required to turn in their votes before the round is even over.

Again, the problem is not a lack of balance, but a lack of control in the hands of the players. Ideally, the game works by giving everyone very limited tools, which they must use to psych out the enemy. Too many special roles and rules complicate the game to a point where it really isn't all that much fun to play.

xander

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 09:16 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

My complaint is not that the game is one sided. My complaint is that the rules are not spelled out, and that there are so many special roles that this isn't a game of psychology and psych outs, but a game of meta-gaming, and gaming the system to procure advantage. I must admit that, as a cop, I was taking advantage of that to some extent (though probably not to the full extent possible), but that doesn't change the fact that there are too many unknown rules and unknowable landmines to walk across. I was no longer even considering Templar or EKHawkman, because both had been removed from the game.

At this point, we know that there are at least three people that had the power to kill anyone, possibly at any time (EKHawkman, Templar, and Lt._Anonymous' assassin). That, alone, is unbalancing. This is coupled with two seers (even if they are flawed), and at least one protection role that can (it seems) act retroactively. Not to mention that the cops are required to turn in their votes before the round is even over.

Again, the problem is not a lack of balance, but a lack of control in the hands of the players. Ideally, the game works by giving everyone very limited tools, which they must use to psych out the enemy. Too many special roles and rules complicate the game to a point where it really isn't all that much fun to play.

xander

Then use that to your advantage. I was trying to hold the fact that I could kill if killed to keep me from dying. Most games don't tell you "There are two terrorists one SDI one Medic and one Assassin among you but don't worry I will let you find out who they are. No you never can know all the basics. Its up to the host to lay the rules out and decide. Plus this is just as much a game of psych outs. Just cause people have powers doesn't mean you can't psych them out. In mrxak's game 18 there was at least one assassin and people who could change votes. You say thats not overpowered? Just get over yourself and accept your death like the rest of us. The only reason you are complaining is cause you got killed by a power. If you had been lynched you wouldn't have said anything even if the powers had killed other people. You are out of line and need to accept your death. But right now you are disrupting the game and ruining it for other players so may I suggest you write your thoughts down and when the game ends you may speak your mind. No use messing up other peoples gaming experience.
Edit: In response to your retroactive comment on the saving thing; How do you know he didn't have to have set it up ahead of time but it just took a turn to activate. Lawyers cant work instantly and the court system takes time to go through.

This post has been edited by EKHawkman : 29 April 2008 - 09:32 PM

Actually, when this game is over, you will realize that I have been complaining to the other two cops since day one. I don't care that I am dead -- frankly, I expected to be lynched two rounds ago. What bothers me was that I was killed in a way that was completely unpredictable. I would also note that in every other game that I have played, the ratio of specials to wolves is generally 1:1. That is, for every wolf, you have a special. Finally, in most other games that I have played (i.e. the first several that are hosted on this forum, those hosted on the Introversion forums, and several other pickup games hosted on other forums), you are told at the beginning what the special roles are -- not who has them, but what they are.

The game is only fun if (a) each side has a good chance of winning (frankly, I am surprised that the cops have lasted this long) and ( the flow of the game is relatively predictable (i.e. that any surprises that come up are surprises of timing, not surprises in the way in which the roles work). Again, it should be players-vs-players, not players-vs-GM, which is what this has felt like from day one.

I would also point out that, if you were to go by my list of people who should be alive, there would be a lot more innocents than cops. I still think that the cops might win this one -- so far, the specials have been completely ineffective (except for Templar and whatever his power was). I still have confidence that my team will win, but I don't think that it has been a fair fight.

If you would stop playing the game for a moment, and actually pay attention to what I am saying, you might even agree with me. The problem is not that I am out of the game, or that my team is going to lose (in fact, I still think that my team is going to win); but rather that the game has not been played fairly, and that whichever team wins will do so not by cunning, but through manipulation of the rules by the GM.

xander

Woo! I was right all along! Just so you know, I had no idea who the cops were, I had to investigate, and I could only shift the blame once. I can still PM and post messages, but it takes up my action points, of which I was barely able to get enough to hit you, xander.

But it nice to know I was right from the start...

In SIB's last game he also twisted things heavily around and made it overly complicated.

As one person said in a long-ago topic, the games are better when the host is invisible, not when he's pulling the strings...

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 10:06 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Actually, when this game is over, you will realize that I have been complaining to the other two cops since day one. I don't care that I am dead -- frankly, I expected to be lynched two rounds ago. What bothers me was that I was killed in a way that was completely unpredictable. I would also note that in every other game that I have played, the ratio of specials to wolves is generally 1:1. That is, for every wolf, you have a special. Finally, in most other games that I have played (i.e. the first several that are hosted on this forum, those hosted on the Introversion forums, and several other pickup games hosted on other forums), you are told at the beginning what the special roles are -- not who has them, but what they are.

Ok, re the special roles.

1. Yes, I have a tendency to put too many special roles in. It's a flaw of mine. If I was replaying the game, two people who have roles now would not have them, and another one would have the role be limited a bit.

2. Re being killed: Blame Templar98921. I gave him the role, he used it.

3. I make it a policy not to tell what special roles are in a game (with certain exceptions). Adds a bit of uncertainty. Anyway, telling you what the special roles are wouldn't be consistent with the game theme.

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 10:06 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

The game is only fun if (a) each side has a good chance of winning (frankly, I am surprised that the cops have lasted this long) and ( the flow of the game is relatively predictable (i.e. that any surprises that come up are surprises of timing, not surprises in the way in which the roles work). Again, it should be players-vs-players, not players-vs-GM, which is what this has felt like from day one.

I have balanced the game very carefully. I'm not going to say how, because it'll give away the BIG surprise at the end of the game, but the cops actually had better chances than the innocents! Now, it could go either way.

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 10:06 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

I would also point out that, if you were to go by my list of people who should be alive, there would be a lot more innocents than cops. I still think that the cops might win this one -- so far, the specials have been completely ineffective (except for Templar and whatever his power was). I still have confidence that my team will win, but I don't think that it has been a fair fight.

I will post a play-by-play log at the end of the game, showing what happened and why. And it hasn't been a fair fight-- you've had it all your own way.

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 10:06 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

If you would stop playing the game for a moment, and actually pay attention to what I am saying, you might even agree with me. The problem is not that I am out of the game, or that my team is going to lose (in fact, I still think that my team is going to win); but rather that the game has not been played fairly, and that whichever team wins will do so not by cunning, but through manipulation of the rules by the GM.

xander

I have not been manipulating the rules! Everything that happened in the game was a direct result of the actions of the players.

@templar98921, on Apr 29 2008, 10:28 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Woo! I was right all along! Just so you know, I had no idea who the cops were, I had to investigate, and I could only shift the blame once. I can still PM and post messages, but it takes up my action points, of which I was barely able to get enough to hit you, xander.

But it nice to know I was right from the start...

Go Templar98921!

@mackilroy, on Apr 29 2008, 11:28 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

In SIB's last game he also twisted things heavily around and made it overly complicated.

As one person said in a long-ago topic, the games are better when the host is invisible, not when he's pulling the strings...

I haven't pulled any strings lately. See my above quote, about the fact that I have NOT been manipulating the rules.

Also, in game 17 I was still learning how to host. I don't twist things around like that anymore.

This post has been edited by SoItBegins : 30 April 2008 - 03:26 AM

You're not getting what I mean, SIB. You already manipulated the rules when you changed it from GTW to Mafia, made people who can't be killed, and so on and so forth. So yes, you've already twisted things.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 08:25 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

1. Yes, I have a tendency to put too many special roles in. It's a flaw of mine. If I was replaying the game, two people who have roles now would not have them, and another one would have the role be limited a bit.

And that is my chief objection. This isn't a game about psychology, it is a game about outthinking the GM. There are too many people with overpowered roles running around. In a more standard game, there should be quite a few more innocents alive, and one more cop alive (assuming that I hadn't been lynched earlier, which is quite possible without the incorrect information that mrxak gave to the group). So far in this game, individuals with special powers have made more kills than cops, and have made as many kills as there have been lynchings. This is neither fair, nor particularly well balanced.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 08:25 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

2. Re being killed: Blame Templar98921. I gave him the role, he used it.

Again, my complaint is not that I am dead. It is that I am dead because there was an overpowered special that killed me. There was an overpowered special because you gave him that role. Thus, it is your fault, not him. I don't fault Templar98921 for using an ability that he was given. In his shoes, I probably would have done the same. I don't think that he should have had that ability in the first place.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 08:25 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

3. I make it a policy not to tell what special roles are in a game (with certain exceptions). Adds a bit of uncertainty. Anyway, telling you what the special roles are wouldn't be consistent with the game theme.

That may be your policy. It runs counter to the best run games that I have seen. The best run games are those where everyone knows what to expect going in, and unexpected things happen because the players are clever. And, honestly, I don't think that ghosts are consistent with a mafia theme, so, clearly, anything can be consistent with any particular theme, assuming that it is described properly.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 08:25 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

I have balanced the game very carefully. I'm not going to say how, because it'll give away the BIG surprise at the end of the game, but the cops actually had better chances than the innocents! Now, it could go either way.

Perhaps either team could win, but that is not the point that I have been making. The problem is not that any team could win, but that the game is fundamentally unbalanced by having so many special roles. The balance is weighted toward GM involvement, rather than player cleverness; not toward one side winning or the other. As Mack said, the GM should be invisible. In this game, he isn't.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 08:25 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

I will post a play-by-play log at the end of the game, showing what happened and why. And it hasn't been a fair fight-- you've had it all your own way.

The fact that you feel the need to post a play-by-play confirms the points that I have been making. No one knows what is going on, which means that the players are no longer fighting each other, but rather that the players are fighting the GM. And I have never claimed that it was a fair fight, one way or the other. I am claiming that it should have been a fair fight between the cops and innocents, and that it hasn't been. I don't care which side wins -- either way, that side will have won in a way that is unfair.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 08:25 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

I have not been manipulating the rules! Everything that happened in the game was a direct result of the actions of the players.

I haven't pulled any strings lately. See my above quote, about the fact that I have NOT been manipulating the rules.

You manipulated the rules in the beginning, and the effects of that manipulation have been apparent throughout the game. Again, the game has been players-vs-players-vs-GM, when it really should just be players-vs-players.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 08:25 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Also, in game 17 I was still learning how to host. I don't twist things around like that anymore.

And you clearly are still learning how to host.

xander

@mackilroy, on Apr 30 2008, 05:41 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

You're not getting what I mean, SIB. You already manipulated the rules when you changed it from GTW to Mafia, made people who can't be killed, and so on and so forth. So yes, you've already twisted things.

Uh, Mackilroy, variety is the spice of life. Would you prefer a dull game of GTW or an exciting game of Mafia?

This whole thing with me not having a vote and a failure chance on my ability is just lame, quite frankly. The only reason people think I'm overpowered is because I can't be killed. Considering I don't have a vote, and people probably won't trust me and change their votes now because of the failure chance, this whole ghost thing makes me not want to play anymore this game, and I don't think I'll be missed.

@darwinian, on Apr 29 2008, 07:16 PM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

My complaint is not that the game is one sided. My complaint is that the rules are not spelled out,

That's the price of admission! If you want to play a game where you know all the rules, go play Scrabble.

@darwinian, on Apr 30 2008, 08:34 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

And that is my chief objection. This isn't a game about psychology, it is a game about outthinking the GM. There are too many people with overpowered roles running around. In a more standard game, there should be quite a few more innocents alive, and one more cop alive (assuming that I hadn't been lynched earlier, which is quite possible without the incorrect information that mrxak gave to the group). So far in this game, individuals with special powers have made more kills than cops, and have made as many kills as there have been lynchings. This is neither fair, nor particularly well balanced.

Uncle! Uncle! I already said I put too many roles in the game. However, I think I balanced it quite well.

@darwinian, on Apr 30 2008, 08:34 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Again, my complaint is not that I am dead. It is that I am dead because there was an overpowered special that killed me. There was an overpowered special because you gave him that role. Thus, it is your fault, not him. I don't fault Templar98921 for using an ability that he was given. In his shoes, I probably would have done the same. I don't think that he should have had that ability in the first place.

That may be your policy. It runs counter to the best run games that I have seen. The best run games are those where everyone knows what to expect going in, and unexpected things happen because the players are clever. And, honestly, I don't think that ghosts are consistent with a mafia theme, so, clearly, anything can be consistent with any particular theme, assuming that it is described properly.

FYI: Around the time that Templar98921 was killed, I noticed a definite imbalance in the game. For the cops. The ghost was my solution to that.

@darwinian, on Apr 30 2008, 08:34 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Perhaps either team could win, but that is not the point that I have been making. The problem is not that any team could win, but that the game is fundamentally unbalanced by having so many special roles. The balance is weighted toward GM involvement, rather than player cleverness; not toward one side winning or the other. As Mack said, the GM should be invisible. In this game, he isn't.

The fact that you feel the need to post a play-by-play confirms the points that I have been making. No one knows what is going on, which means that the players are no longer fighting each other, but rather that the players are fighting the GM. And I have never claimed that it was a fair fight, one way or the other. I am claiming that it should have been a fair fight between the cops and innocents, and that it hasn't been. I don't care which side wins -- either way, that side will have won in a way that is unfair.

Hey hey hey! Hold up! I'm posting the play-by-play because someone (i.e. you ) complained. Also, I should point out that in the Democratic presidential candidate race, it's now down to the superdelegates. When they decide one way or the other, don't you think that about half the party will complain that the other side won 'in a way that is unfair'?

@darwinian, on Apr 30 2008, 08:34 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

You manipulated the rules in the beginning, and the effects of that manipulation have been apparent throughout the game. Again, the game has been players-vs-players-vs-GM, when it really should just be players-vs-players.

True. However, I thought out the rule manipulations very carefully.

@darwinian, on Apr 30 2008, 08:34 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

And you clearly are still learning how to host.

I'm not going to deign to respond to that.

Give the guy a break. Yall are all just being lame.

@soitbegins, on Apr 30 2008, 10:34 AM, said in Werewolf Game Meta-Discussion:

Uh, Mackilroy, variety is the spice of life. Would you prefer a dull game of GTW or an exciting game of Mafia?

Variety, yes. Introducing unneeded complications, no. And this is the DEFCON board, not the Cops-'n-Robbers board.

"Make everything as simple as possible, and no simpler." - Albert Einstein.

And if you have to add a role because of imbalance, then you've got too many unbalanced roles to begin with.

EKHawkman : And you've got a better suggestion?