TCs, a never-completing saga?

(posted on the ASW Nova board, the ev-nova.net "Upcoming Plug-ins" section and the Arpia boards and I realise I should also have posted it here on the EVDC, so here goes)

Preliminary remark: please read the replies on the Nova board topic, because that's where many non-developers go and will (hopefully) have expressed their opinion. This is merely a "shadow topic" for you, developers, to see (because I feel many do not visit the Nova board all that often).

Another week goes by, and another few TC ideas pop up. I see on ev-nova.net a new poster saying he/she is a video specialist, offering his/her services for movie sequences to accompany a storyline. And a special, devastating announcement I've been waiting to see from one of the major TC teams (won't say who, but I'll tell you I'm not supposed to know and therefore you won't know before they announce it) has still not come.

And as I wrote this, I felt too tired to get some work done on SFA (it was past 10 pm, and I had done a fair bit of reading & studying for uni yesterday).
I mean, it was all fine when I was working on ARPIA2 after Arpia1: I had just two and a half storylines to write, and it was all my universe. Easy peasy, and I actually pulled it off.
Yet it was "but" a "simple" expansion for EVN, so some people feel it's somehow inferior to TCs "in progress". A great number of people haven't even played EVN in years and aren't going to until some big TC comes out, and they don't care about ARPIA2 ("stuff like ARPIA2", if anything else of the like ever were to come out). And I even have a couple of people telling me "I don't like Death" or "you could have done that instead", and they get annoyed when I say I won't remove Death, because I personally feel it adds a little plus.
But enough on this rant about ARPIA2's reception.

What has happened so far in Nova's life, all five years of it?

Let's have a look, shall we: 10 Nova updates, 1 sizeable TC released (Polycon), PlugPack, EVC and EVO ports, 1 "public alpha" TC (SFA), an EVN Wiki and, I have to mention it, ARPIA2. Plus three minor plugs that have been very well received: ShipVariants, ShieldBubbles and PaintStationPrime.

Now that ARPIA2 has been released for a few months, I can honestly say that the idea many of us had that it would "revitalise" the community has not apparently become reality. At least, those are my observations. Sure, there have been an incredible number of topics about ARPIA2, but I haven't seen any noticeable initiatives by developers, "not-yet-developers" or even "normal users" to bring something new. One exception: Dr. Trowel's idea of getting the ev-nova.net users involved in writing dëscs for SFA, so that they can "earn the latest alpha".

So I have a few questions for you all.

First of all, to the (still active) developers: what is your progress? Is there nothing you could do to imply the community? I realise this echoes the question Dafydd asked a few months back (sorry Dave, but it did come out at first as rather un-eloquent and a bit boastful ). But there are plenty of talented people in this community who just never feel like doing anything alone, because teams are closed and do not make many "public appearances". And if you gave them the chance, like Dr. Trowel did on ev-nova.net, you'd see some response. At least, that's what I hope. I have faith in the people of the EVN community Maybe it will turn out rather futile, but if we don't try

Secondly, to the "public". Is the public alpha idea one you liked with SFA? Is there nothing you could do to re-valorise this community? I stopped having ideas some time ago, lost all my imagination, but I know for a fact there are people in here with some ideas

I just hope you guys and girls will be able to prove me wrong, and show me that EVN still has a future to look forward to. Not just tomorrow, not just in five years when this or that TC will be completely done. But also in the meantime.

On that note, I'd like to say I thank all those of this community, because in the three years I've known it, I've truly appreciated it. Old and new members, "n00bs" and "experts" alike.

All the best,

Peter

This post has been edited by Pace : 10 April 2007 - 01:58 AM

Probably best to keep all replies in the one on the Nova board. While I'm here though, why is a minor plug-in like shield bubbles included in your list? :huh: (also, the shields plug on the front page of the addons at the moment is way cooler :p)

Thing is most developers do not seem to visit the Nova board all that often, which is why, after giving it some more thought, I decided to post it here too

But yeah, here is the Nova board topic.

About ShieldBubbles, it's because I felt I had to mention one of the three minor plugs that have been used a million times: ShipVariants, ShieldBubbles and PaintStationPrime. But I'll remove it from the list

The sun rises. The sun sets. Life goes on, and nothing changes.

Cham

Quoting myself from the other topic because...well...so its here too.

View PostJoshTigerheart, on Apr 9 2007, 04:29 PM, said:

You forgot CTC's Teaser release.

CTC status? Just gotta write up the rest of the fighter storyline and re-arm its variants and CTC will more or less be 1/3 done. At that point if it comes down to it, I'd be able to just release it as a complete, albeit much smaller than planned, TC.

HATC has most of its ships and weapons done, and is just waiting for a story. And then we can rebalance based on how powerful the ships are supposed to be in the story.

Oh, we need graphics if were actually going to include any. Otherwise we'll keep what were using now, which is stolen stock graphics from evc/o/n.

This post has been edited by LNSU : 10 April 2007 - 11:35 AM

@pace, on Apr 10 2007, 02:28 AM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

Now that ARPIA2 has been released for a few months, I can honestly say that the idea many of us had that it would "revitalise" the community has not apparently become reality. At least, those are my observations. Sure, there have been an incredible number of topics about ARPIA2, but I haven't seen any noticeable initiatives by developers, "not-yet-developers" or even "normal users" to bring something new. One exception: Dr. Trowel's idea of getting the ev-nova.net users involved in writing dëscs for SFA, so that they can "earn the latest alpha".

Well, it's largely thanks to ARPIA2 and all the publicity that I've gotten interested in making plugs, though I'm not much.
What "the latest alpha"? (What's an alpha?)

@pace, on Apr 10 2007, 02:28 AM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

First of all, to the (still active) developers: what is your progress? Is there nothing you could do to imply the community?

While I'm not exactly a 'developer' yet, as I...ah...haven't developed anything, my progress is that I have a good story. That's about it. Not sure what you mean for 'imply the community' there.

@pace, on Apr 10 2007, 02:28 AM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

I stopped having ideas some time ago, lost all my imagination, but I know for a fact there are people in here with some ideas

I've got at least one awesome idea. I could come up with some more though. I'll keep the nogin working, all speed ahead.

@lnsu, on Apr 10 2007, 12:34 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

HATC has most of its ships and weapons done, and is just waiting for a story.

Hmm, I've got the exact opposite: no ships/weapons, but a good story.

@lnsu, on Apr 10 2007, 12:34 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

Oh, we need graphics if were actually going to include any. Otherwise we'll keep what were using now, which is stolen stock graphics from evc/o/n.

What's wrong with 'stolen' stock graphics? They're perfect for people with no artistic abilities to speak of (like me), and stories taking place in the EV universe don't make much sense if none of the EV ships are in it....

Here's one of my (in my opinion) genius ideas: My still-unnamed-and-not-yet-started-TC.

@starbridge21, on Apr 11 2007, 04:21 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

What's wrong with 'stolen' stock graphics? They're perfect for people with no artistic abilities to speak of (like me), and stories taking place in the EV universe don't make much sense if none of the EV ships are in it....

They're just that: stolen. Ambrosia/Atmos's lawyers would have a field day if you stole their graphics for uses other than just innocent stand in testing.

@jacabyte, on Apr 11 2007, 06:44 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

They're just that: stolen. Ambrosia/Atmos's lawyers would have a field day if you stole their graphics for uses other than just innocent stand in testing.

Are you serious? You can't just slap on a disclaimer saying that Ambrosia and Atmos own all rights to graphics, names, and some parts of the plot?

If that's true, I pretty much have to scrap my entire idea. If I can't have the Federation or Federation Destroyers etc. in my plug, there's not much point in making it. Except to play around in it myself, of course, but what fun is that when I already know everything that will happen?

Couldn't I just give all credit to Atmos and Ambrosia and take none for myself? Because this plot has to get out there somehow; it would be a crime to let such an idea go to waste.

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 11 April 2007 - 05:51 PM

@starbridge21, on Apr 11 2007, 04:49 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

If that's true, I pretty much have to scrap my entire idea. If I can't have the Federation or Federation Destroyers etc. in my plug, there's not much point in making it. Except to play around in it myself, of course, but what fun is that when I already know everything that will happen?

I meant using the sprite in another game. You can still use the sprites in their games... Sorry for the confusion. :wacko:

Oh pashaw. ASW doesn't raise a stink about reuse of its resources in add-ons devised to run only on its games. It's been done extensively. Check out PlugPack, for starters.

If you're making a plug for the EVN universe, you usually don't have to actually include their graphics in your files, anyway -- in fact, it's extrordinarily wasteful to do so. You just refer to graphics that are already in the game files.

Edit: Good save, JacaByte.

This post has been edited by Dr. Trowel : 11 April 2007 - 05:59 PM

Gah!! You nearly gave me a heart attack!!!!

PHEW :huh: :blink: :laugh:

(panting for breath right now; I don't know how to feel)

Thanks for getting back to me so soon...I'd have just about died if I had to tell JoshTigerheart -- who's been warning me about people who think they can develop but give up too soon -- that I was going to abandon my plug.

I'm still trying to calm down. You scared me half to death. Phew! Well, I'm just glad it's over! All speed ahead, then! Let operation come-up-with-a-name continue!

Can I use the words "Escape Velocity" as part of the title? Like, could it be Escape Velocity: Collision? (I was thinking of using this one but started looking for a new one when I realized that would be 'EVC', just like Escape Velocity Classic).

@dr--trowel, on Apr 11 2007, 06:59 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

If you're making a plug for the EVN universe, you usually don't have to actually include their graphics in your files, anyway -- in fact, it's extrordinarily wasteful to do so. You just refer to graphics that are already in the game files.

What do you mean?

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 11 April 2007 - 06:06 PM

@starbridge21, on Apr 11 2007, 04:03 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

Can I use the words "Escape Velocity" as part of the title? Like, could it be Escape Velocity: Collision? (I was thinking of using this one but started looking for a new one when I realized that would be 'EVC', just like Escape Velocity Classic).

I don't see any reason why you couldn't. I mean, there's EV:Aftermath, after all (heh, slight pun). If you are creating a new game ENTIRELY (which is not what you are doing; you're simply modifying the original game), you can NOT use the EV title. Those rights belong to Matt Burch, and he has stated he will NOT release them.

Maybe if you called it "Escape Velocity: Collision" more people would be forced to call EV "EV", just as it should be, instead of "EVC".

@consul-bob, on Apr 11 2007, 08:11 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

Maybe if you called it "Escape Velocity: Collision" more people would be forced to call EV "EV", just as it should be, instead of "EVC".

That's a good point, but I don't think people will stop calling EVC EVC just because something else is now EVC. More likely, they'd change the name of my plug-in and call it EV:C or EVCol or something along those lines.

@starbridge21, on Apr 11 2007, 06:03 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

Thanks for getting back to me so soon...I'd have just about died if I had to tell JoshTigerheart -- who's been warning me about people who think they can develop but give up too soon -- that I was going to abandon my plug.

:laugh:

Sorry, that gave me a good chuckle.

But yea, as far as my understanding goes, you can reuse graphics, sounds, ideas, etc. from any Ambrosia game in a plug for an Ambrosia game. One of the EVO TC mods (Facelift I believe?) uses sounds from Ares, and CTC will too unless it gets some new ones.

Laughing at my expense, Josh? Go ahead, I laugh at my own expense all the time.

@starbridge21, on Apr 11 2007, 05:21 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

What "the latest alpha"? (What's an alpha?)

An alpha is simply a pre-release, testing and development version of a piece of software (like a beta version, but even earlier in development). In SFA's case, it used to be a "public alpha", i.e. anyone can download it, play it, and submit bug reports or suggestions. Currently, though, SFA is only semi-public - you have to submit content (there was a desc-writing thread at ev-nova.net) and earn access to it.

@joshtigerheart, on Apr 11 2007, 08:47 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

But yea, as far as my understanding goes, you can reuse graphics, sounds, ideas, etc. from any Ambrosia game in a plug for an Ambrosia game. One of the EVO TC mods (Facelift I believe?) uses sounds from Ares, and CTC will too unless it gets some new ones.

And there was also a Sketchfighter Nova plug-in released recently that added the ships and weapons from sketchfighter.

Let's try to stay on topic guys.

Anyway, I just don't see much changing, regardless of whatever efforts people take to revitalize the dev community. There are some very large obstacles to producing a major plug-in project and seeing it through to a final release. Some of these are on the developer's end, but the vast majority are on the engine's side. Things like wanting to be bigger and better than Nova's original scenario is a developer problem. Things like vastly more complex resources are an engine problem. As a result of the things out of the control of a developer, it's just going to cut down on the number of TCs and plug-ins we see.

@mrxak, on Apr 11 2007, 10:55 PM, said in Five years of Nova: what does the future hold?:

Things like wanting to be bigger and better than Nova's original scenario is a developer problem.

How is that a problem? Isn't bigger and better a good thing? I don't see why anyone would want to make scenarios that are smaller and worse. That's not what people want; they want improvements on the original Nova scenario.

And thanks for answering my question, Nil'kimas.

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 11 April 2007 - 10:28 PM