Unfortunately if somebody did that they'd probably be criticized for just using the same graphics...

In that case, the whole current crop of TCs are probably far past the stage where they could do that.

Yes, that first post covers the problem quite nicely (and thoroughly). Nova is so big and well done that most developers think that they need to do something just as large and impressive-looking as Nova, and there aren't enough holes to easily stick in another storyline, especially if you need a new major government.

In my opinion, the most effective way to lower the bar on graphics would be for someone to release a popular TC with simple graphics (a few primitives slapped together, windows and such being little more than outlines, etc.). The EVC and EVO ports don't really count, as they aren't really viewed as TCs. Any volunteers to make this?

@Guy: That's an interesting idea, but to get a new plot, you would probably need to re-do all of the planet descriptions, at which point it isn't much less work than creating a new universe with the same graphics.

Qaanol, on Jun 28 2005, 02:04 PM, said:

Void.View Post

A valid point, but it doesn't really add anything to this discussion. trout thwack

Edwards

pipeline, on Jun 29 2005, 02:57 AM, said:

For all you scenario developers out there, I heartily recommend MishMash. It's a tool designed for doing nothing but descriptions.

Check it out.

Dave @ ATMOS
View Post

Mish is great. I recommend it too: both for people who are developing something and for players. Why? Because if you want to find any information that could be contained in mission descriptions, it will be in the Mished version of Nova/your plug/ Works really great.

Mash, on the other hand, has never worked for me And ResStore didn't interest me that much, so I stuck to MissionComputer for writing.

But, back on topic
Have your say, all of you!

This post has been edited by Pace (haldora) : 29 June 2005 - 02:11 AM

ConText and ReStore are staples in my Nova development diet. MishMash not so much... mostly because I use Mission Computer for mission text stuff when I need to do mission text stuff.

Yay I finally have time to comment! Oh, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't name 20 TCs total, much less for any one EV

Hmm, mrxak, I'm not sure if I totally agree with what seems to be your reason for so many big projects and the time they take to make. First off I don't think that you can relate the large plugins taking a long time as a sign that they are bogged down, or that there are problems. I think what has really happened is that the resources available to the average person have increased dramatically and sharply since even the EVO days. With the faster computer, and better tools comes the desire to use them to their full extent. Who wants to use lightwave to make the ships of the two previous EVs? So sure, making more detailed ships, for example takes longer, but it also produces better results. So thats one thing thats taking longer, since people have the capability to make better graphics they are. The other thing thats taking longer is story.

If you compare the amount of storyline from each of the three EVs you'll see it go up with each one. In fact I think that the current crop of large plugins are pushing good storylines as much or more than the fancy graphics. While at first that might seem silly, you have to remember that its far easier for a dev team to relaese a small subset of their total graphics and not ruin anything than it is to release a part of the story without giving anything away. So a plugin may have a very great stroyline, but all the public might not really see it until the plugin is released.

So if both graphics and storyline take more time to complete because the tools and ideas are better, then I don't think its fair to consider a project bogged down just because its taking a long time to complete. So really I don't see a problem with people going after big projects. Of course that doesn't take into account big projects failing more often than little ones, but thats more or less a given...

That said it would be nice to see smaller projects. The best place for small projects has always been in the universe that the game shipped with. And Nova seems to be less friendly in that regard than say EVO was. EVO almost told people to continue the story, with its three main storyline objectives. In Nova the stories more or less end, and leave far less space for people to insert their own missions. Not that EVO's way is right and Nova's way is wrong, Nova just wrapped its plot lines far more than EVO did. Maybe if Nova hadn't wrapped up as much we would have seen more small continuations based off of Nova storylines, but maybe not.

One other thing that might have "caused" the rise of the TC is that any plugin set in Nova's universe thats beyond the length of a single Nova storyline will simply run out of mission slots. When people can't fit something into the current universe the other option is to make their own, and thus what might have been a small project turns into a TC. So Nova's size combined with a low mission limit could be a cause of less things to play right now.

So to sum up, I think that the long development time of current TCs is far more the result of more processing power, and better tools than teams trying to use every new feature they can think of. While it may appear that many of these large TCs are focusing on graphics that probably isn't true, graphics are just the easiest thing to see as a TC is being developed. And finally Nova's size vs the limit of the EV3 engine, and the way Nova end more than the other EVs could very well be reasons we don't see more smaller plugin projects being finished.

This post has been edited by Ragashingo : 29 June 2005 - 07:41 PM

I have a good idea! Federation scientists are working on a top-secret project, messing with the fabric of space (or something). Rebels, oblivious to the project, jump into the system it is being conducted in, and start attacking. Stray Wraithii bolts hit the facilities main power conduit, creating a rift in several universes to form. Three universes, to be exact. The EVC, EVO, and EVN universe. Ships from each universe are thrown into a fourth universe, in the distant future. Humans are extinct, and the ruling species are some aliens (I'm not good with names). Now they must fight to survive, with ships from each EV and the odd alien ships. What d'ya think?

I think the idea deserves its own topic, this topic is for debating the points mrxak and others made, isn't meant for coming up with ideas for new plugins.

I believe that Raga has hit the issue on the head. Basically without revealing anything important there is no way to keep the public apprised about anyone's progress. I stopped updating public progress logs for that reason about anything that is really relevant- and because of that fact one should not take silence as an admission of lack of progress. When EV or EVO came out basically you had programs that put a couple of primitives together and perhaps stretched them a bit. Now you can (whatever these terms mean, I use Mechanisto) spline model and subdivision model and a lot of people can make really neat stuff- would you rather fly a standard EV tapered cylinder with fins or a Starbridge? I guess that it is all aesthetics.

Ragashingo, on Jun 29 2005, 03:49 PM, said:

In fact I think that the current crop of large plugins are pushing goof storylines as much or more than the fancy graphics. While at first that might seem silly ,View Post

Indeed.

(/unhelpful)

Still haven't read the original post, but I think I have the gist of the discussion here, now. Interestingly, a day or two before the original post was posted, I came up with an idea for what I feel would be a fairly original/different-seeming TC type plugin that wouldn't be overly large, and would be relatively light on certain of the particularly time-consuming content. Heck, I'm tempted to actually start working on it now, posting a recruiting topic right here and asking some of the top EVDC people if they'd be interested (I think it'd be up some peoples' alleys) but I ought to dedicate that time to AM. But today, I have homework.

That'd be...my...4th TC idea that I might actually want to try to complete, out of who knows how many total.

Whether there's really room for much in the way of non-TC plugins for Nova, people really ought to remember that a good concept well-executed has the potential to be just as enjoyable as something with very large scope in addition to good concept and execution - just not for as long, and with a bit less room for spinning a great amount of complexity. Doesn't mean it won't turn out well or not be worthwhile.

I'm leaving for Maine in less than 8 hours, and still need to pack (and sleep), so I'll just post a quick comment now, and get back to this in a week.

The main point of this isn't to figure out the apparent lack of progress with the largest of projects going on, as it is to encourage smaller projects that don't take so much time and energy to complete. I'm sure that such major projects are progressing to at least some degree. Frankly, I'd rather that the major projects don't keep people up-to-date on their projects, as that takes up time and energy better devoted to the actual work. What I want to see, and the only thing that matters, is releases. Something people can play. I think the solution to the releases problem is smaller more manageable projects.

Ragashingo, on Jun 30 2005, 12:49 AM, said:

One other thing that might have "caused" the rise of the TC is that any plugin set in Nova's universe thats beyond the length of a single Nova storyline will simply run out of mission slots. When people can't fit something into the current universe the other option is to make their own, and thus what might have been a small project turns into a TC. So Nova's size combined with a low mission limit could be a cause of less things to play right now.
View Post

I heartily disagree:

Nova leaves 209 mďsn slots to the developer.
Arpia 2 is a plug-in with three 45-mission storylines (but some missions are common to some storylines). I have used 199 mďsn slots, and still have 10 left.
Now, excuse me, but that is way bigger than any given Nova storyline (in fact, any one of those Arpia storylines is longer than a Nova one if you don't count the Polaris offshoots, I believe).

mrxak, on Jun 29 2005, 11:58 PM, said:

I'm leaving for Maine in less than 8 hoursView Post

What brings you to my great state?

Have fun while you're here, but don't dig any clams. Stupid red tide. Lobster's still good though. How long are you staying?

You're from Maine? Ya northener. That's what all we Floridians call people that are to the north of us. Come to Florida, cheapest crap around!! :cryptic grin: Come visit the Tragic Kingdom!!

Qaanol, on Jun 30 2005, 03:02 PM, said:

What brings you to my great state?

Have fun while you're here, but don't dig any clams. Stupid red tide. Lobster's still good though. How long are you staying?
View Post

Not that I'm usually one to support the derailment of topics outside the B&B, but I think mrxak's home state is Maine, and he's returning from college out of state.

Though I could be mistaken about that.

QUOTE snippets from mrxak
I suggest that the idea of smaller, faster, better plug-ins is the way many developers should go
It seems to me that instead of creating each branch in a massive universe all by itself, smaller plug-ins with just one or two stories apiece gets the product to the player sooner, and it gets the job done just as well if not better.
The main point of this isn't to figure out the apparent lack of progress with the largest of projects going on, as it is to encourage smaller projects that don't take so much time and energy to complete.
I think the solution to the releases problem is smaller more manageable projects.

QUOTE snippet from U_E_Resarch & Developement
We need stepping-stones, and we need to keep the interest of the community.

QUOTE snippets from Ragashingo
My basic thoughts are yes, good well written mini storylines would be neat to see.
The best place for small projects has always been in the universe that the game shipped with.

QUOTE snippet from Pace (haldora)
Nova leaves 209 mďsn slots to the developer.

Keying off of the above quoted excerpts I went on a subplot hunt through the Federation area of the Novaverse. I was able to come up with a whole list (see below) of possible short story seeds that have yet to be nurtured into mini storylines that could readily be fit into Nova's existing framework. And this was only from perusing Federation spöb dëscs and storylines. I'm sure that Auroran and Polaris based seeds exist as well. Making use of the existing Nova graphics and adding a compelling story is all that's required. No need for a big investment in graphics or planetary system creation, it's already there. These are all very extensible and yet individually could easily be set up to fit within the remaining mission resources. They could even be designed to be swappable so that as one mini-story was completed that plug could be removed and another mini-story plug inserted. The reason I did this was because a couple comments were made to the effect that the Nova storylines sort of shut the door on any furtherance. Well they did as far as the main stories are concerned. But there is a lot of room for just the sort of thing that mrxak is talking about: smaller is better (from a certain perspective), quicker for sure, and, if done correctly, very entertaining.

Special Klavs (what the h*** is a Klav?):
Temmin Shard just sort of fades away, begging for a continuation.
Cunjo Hunter could be expanded by developing the relationship between the planets Hourglass and Cunjo.
Exploration Probe (and that derelict Cruiser) also beg for a follow-up.
Rock Group would need an overhaul but could be made into something interesting.

Business and Industry (just think what somebody could do with greed, ambition, and corporate ineptitude combined with any of the following):
Rautherian Power Industries (Rauther)
Pyrogenesis (Pyrogensis I & LPAD)
BHP Billiton (Lodestone)
Hal Corp. (Viking)
Boral Mining Corp. (Boral I)
Fate (Kismet) Pty Ltd (Kismet)
GLi-Tech Corp. (GLi-Tech-nia)

The dark side:
Associated Guild of Free Traders from their perspective.
Marauders is a government begging for a context.
Simpson and Altia are both havens for the criminal element.
And we have prisons: Outcast & Eguit (think brute force breakouts, intricately planned escapes, frame-ups, legal shenanigans).

Other untapped possibilities:
Terraforming of Mars, NeoNewYork, Spica, Kiniké, and/or Gineia.
Church of Krim-Hwa inner workings.
University of Misfire disaffection.
Hypergate reconstruction. (didn't somebody already do this one?)
Roughnecks involvement a'la Wild Geese storyline.
Brass planetary politics.
Sigma storyline continuation.
United Shipping storyline continuation.

Klavs is Matt Burch's brother, Adam. Apart from suggesting the extra missions, he also produced a couple of textures for Nova.

pipeline, on Jul 1 2005, 03:28 AM, said:

Klavs is Matt Burch's brother, Adam. Apart from suggesting the extra missions, he also produced a couple of textures for Nova.
View Post

That's nice.

Qaanol, on Jun 30 2005, 06:02 PM, said:

What brings you to my great state?

Have fun while you're here, but don't dig any clams. Stupid red tide. Lobster's still good though. How long are you staying?
View Post

Short vacation, mostly near Acadia NP. I did have lobster twice (once steamed, once boiled), very enjoyable food, indeed. I don't like clams much anyway, so no loss there. Had a good time.

zapp, on Jun 30 2005, 10:03 PM, said:

You're from Maine? Ya northener. That's what all we Floridians call people that are to the north of us. Come to Florida, cheapest crap around!! :cryptic grin: Come visit the Tragic Kingdom!!
View Post

I've been to Florida far too many times and if I never step foot in that state again I will die happy (sorry :p). And Disney World sucked, the one time I was there.

Weepul 884, on Jun 30 2005, 11:43 PM, said:

Not that I'm usually one to support the derailment of topics outside the B&B, but I think mrxak's home state is Maine, and he's returning from college out of state.

Though I could be mistaken about that.
View Post

I'm from Massachusetts. Maine, which was a part of Massachusetts until 1820, is still quite close to my home, which I actually returned to from college several weeks ago. I think we ought to take back Maine and make them part of Massachusetts again, but it's still nice to visit.

Anyway, enough about my trip (which I came back from today, to answer another question). If you really care, find me on irc or PM to discuss this and many more fabulous things about mrxak.

Arturo, on Jul 1 2005, 01:55 AM, said:

QUOTE snippets from mrxak
I suggest that the idea of smaller, faster, better plug-ins is the way many developers should go
It seems to me that instead of creating each branch in a massive universe all by itself, smaller plug-ins with just one or two stories apiece gets the product to the player sooner, and it gets the job done just as well if not better.
The main point of this isn't to figure out the apparent lack of progress with the largest of projects going on, as it is to encourage smaller projects that don't take so much time and energy to complete.
I think the solution to the releases problem is smaller more manageable projects.

QUOTE snippet from U_E_Resarch & Developement
We need stepping-stones, and we need to keep the interest of the community.

QUOTE snippets from Ragashingo
My basic thoughts are yes, good well written mini storylines would be neat to see.
The best place for small projects has always been in the universe that the game shipped with.

QUOTE snippet from Pace (haldora)
Nova leaves 209 mďsn slots to the developer.
Keying off of the above quoted excerpts I went on a subplot hunt through the Federation area of the Novaverse. I was able to come up with a whole list (see below) of possible short story seeds that have yet to be nurtured into mini storylines that could readily be fit into Nova's existing framework. And this was only from perusing Federation spöb dëscs and storylines. I'm sure that Auroran and Polaris based seeds exist as well. Making use of the existing Nova graphics and adding a compelling story is all that's required. No need for a big investment in graphics or planetary system creation, it's already there. These are all very extensible and yet individually could easily be set up to fit within the remaining mission resources. They could even be designed to be swappable so that as one mini-story was completed that plug could be removed and another mini-story plug inserted. The reason I did this was because a couple comments were made to the effect that the Nova storylines sort of shut the door on any furtherance. Well they did as far as the main stories are concerned. But there is a lot of room for just the sort of thing that mrxak is talking about: smaller is better (from a certain perspective), quicker for sure, and, if done correctly, very entertaining.
Special Klavs (what the h*** is a Klav?):
Temmin Shard just sort of fades away, begging for a continuation.
Cunjo Hunter could be expanded by developing the relationship between the planets Hourglass and Cunjo.
Exploration Probe (and that derelict Cruiser) also beg for a follow-up.
Rock Group would need an overhaul but could be made into something interesting.

Business and Industry (just think what somebody could do with greed, ambition, and corporate ineptitude combined with any of the following):
Rautherian Power Industries (Rauther)
Pyrogenesis (Pyrogensis I & LPAD)
BHP Billiton (Lodestone)
Hal Corp. (Viking)
Boral Mining Corp. (Boral I)
Fate (Kismet) Pty Ltd (Kismet)
GLi-Tech Corp. (GLi-Tech-nia)

The dark side:
Associated Guild of Free Traders from their perspective.
Marauders is a government begging for a context.
Simpson and Altia are both havens for the criminal element.
And we have prisons: Outcast & Eguit (think brute force breakouts, intricately planned escapes, frame-ups, legal shenanigans).

Other untapped possibilities:
Terraforming of Mars, NeoNewYork, Spica, Kiniké, and/or Gineia.
Church of Krim-Hwa inner workings.
University of Misfire disaffection.
Hypergate reconstruction. (didn't somebody already do this one?)
Roughnecks involvement a'la Wild Geese storyline.
Brass planetary politics.
Sigma storyline continuation.
United Shipping storyline continuation.
View Post

Thank you for bringing up some ideas where Nova has room for further expansion.

pipeline, on Jul 1 2005, 04:28 AM, said:

Klavs is Matt Burch's brother, Adam. Apart from suggesting the extra missions, he also produced a couple of textures for Nova.
View Post

Neat bit of trivia, that.

mrxak, on Jul 5 2005, 07:37 PM, said:

I've been to Florida far too many times and if I never step foot in that state again I will die happy (sorry :p). And Disney World sucked, the one time I was there.

You suck. What are you smoking anyways? Disney World is awesome. Even as someone who loves roller coasters, I like Disney as much as Islands of Adventure.

I agree with Pace about the mission limit not being the cause of the "rise of the TC". In my opinion, Nova is just too complete. What I mean is, non-Nova strings don't seem to belong. Plus, Nova doesn't cater to people adding to the scenario very well, what with its crazy bits and obscene amount of unnecessary/useless resources. Oddly, the best way to create a story seems to be, to many people, to create a TC.