An idea for more formidable AI

slouch

After reading some of the recent threads on the Nova board regarding game balance, I had an idea about making the AI stronger. It seems to me that most players feel that a player controlled ship will always be more powerful than its AI counterpart. Some of this is attributable to player skill, and some to upgrade outfits that the player can acquire. So I set out to make the AI ships more powerful than the player.

This led to the idea of player 'Handicap Outfits'. The basic idea is to give the player outfits with negative mod values which could make them slower, less protected, and possibly less armed than the AI. The following example is what I did to apply this idea to the stock Nova scenario:

When considering all of the upgrade outfits available to the player in Nova, I narrowed it down to the Port & Polish, Vectored Thrust, Sigma Engine Tune-up, and Sigma Electrical Re-wiring that are the most basic imbalances in the game. My idea was to give all Nova ships the combined attributes of these outfits, and give the player outfits which would negate these bonuses. What I wound up with was a somewhat faster, better protected Nova universe. The AI capital warships were noticeably faster, and their fighters much more difficult to outrun or destroy. Indeed, gameplay was a bit more difficult. The best part of it was that the player did not benefit from these bonuses. (Yes, their escorts would, but not their own ship).

Of course not all scenarios are designed like Nova, so I'm not suggesting that this exact usage could be applied to everyone's project. There are many possible implementations of the basic premise of player handicaps, ranging from flat rate persistent handicaps to highly customized default handicap outfits for ships. (Yeah, it's certainly helpful for this idea that the AI doesn't take advantage of most outfit mod types). I can't make the claim that this is an entirely original idea (as I haven't played every single plug-in ever released for the EV series), but I haven't seen it discussed here. Anyway, this just seemed like too good a thing for me to keep to myself. Hopefully this will be of use to someone in some way.

Oh, and I would love to hear about any new variations or twists you can come up with expanding on this idea.

------------------

(This message has been edited by slouch (edited 07-28-2004).)

rmx256

In my TC the AI has access to ships that under normal circumstances the player will NEVER have (barring piracy). These ships are what I honestly consider the equivalent to modern naval ships- huge, extremely armored, heavily armed and powered. The players' ships, for the most part, are like merchant marine- Smaller, armed, but not packing a couple meters thickness of steel armor and 100-cm guns (incedentally these are the ships that I am modeling now and are reffered to in another topic). Certainly well armed when a players' ship goes against another ship of similar quality, but versus the main Naval ships the player hasn't much of a chance. Of course after mabey 10 missions in the main government's string, the player might be assigned one, but it wouold be for a bloody good reason and would probably be de-assigned afterwards.

------------------
Drinking causes hangovers.
(url="http://"http://www.freewebs.com/rmx256/index.htm")Kemet T.C. Website(/url)

Dr. Trowel

From the "gövt" section of the Nova Bible:

The SkillMult field allows you to apply a global multiplier to the skill levels
of ships that belong to this government. A value of 100 will cause this
government's ships to be just as skilled as any other ships of the same type. A
value of 50 will cause this govt's ships to only be 50% as skilled, and a value
of 150 will cause this govt's ships to be 50% more skilled as the stock ship is
rated. This allows you to create governments whose pilots are more highly
trained than the stock pilots, so they can gain extra speed and acceleration
from their ships. Values in this field of less than 1 are ignored.

Does anyone know how to quantify the effects of this field? Does SkillMult = 150 really give a 50% boost in both speed and accel, or does mburch mean something more subtle by "50% more skilled?"

Unless SkillMult looks at a ship's InherentGovt instead of at it's functional allegiance in the game, using SkillMult would keep player escort ships from getting the boosts. That might be considered a good thing.

If SkillMult only affects speed and acceleration, though, then slouch's method is flexible in different ways.

Pace

From what I tried out, the SkillMultiplier does make the ships faster and tougher (faster I am really sure of, but tougher I didn't try out enough to find out). So it doesn't have a subtle meaning. And, when you capture a ship of that government (which is originally faster), you get the standard version of it. Yes, it depends on the ship's allegiance, not on its Inherent Govt.

------------------
Pace
(haldora)
-- Cartman: I hate hippies! I mean, the way they always talk about "protectin' the earth" and then drive around in cars that get poor gas mileage and wear those stupid bracelets - I hate 'em! I wanna kick 'em in the nuts!

SpacePirate

Yes, i was about to point that skillmult field out. I believe it multiplies (as the name suggests) the shield, armor, shield recharge, armor rebuild, ionization, deionization, speed, maneuver, and accel values, and probably the Strength as well, by whatever value is entered. So, if 64 is entered in, all statistics are multiplied by .64. If a value of 148 is entered, all stats are multiplied by 1.48.

Slouch, one thing about this is that THAT was the reason ATMOS added in ship variants. Driving around downtown in real life, you will really only usually see stock cars around. I doubt this will change, it seems to be human nature to get things that work , and only a handful of people actually 1. Have the money to do serious modifications, and 2. Have the time and will to do those modifications.

In Nova, the player has both the time and the money to do those modifications, and that is where the game differs in real life. You are never pressed to leave the planet, because there time stands still. Just a thought. Perhaps more use of Qxxx could change that a bit, but not by much.

One more major difference between the AI and the Human players, is that players can dodge bullets. Do you, as a player, just sit there and take every railgun bolt that comes your way? Hell no, you get out of the way. Does the computer? Of course. If the AI could dodge bullets, it would make things quite a bit more interesting.

In summation, there are a few things I think Nova needed to make it a serious challenge to me. 1. Make the AI dodge bullets. 2. Restrict the players time somewhat, and give them additional expenses. 3. Make more fleet types, and program in fleet tactics. 4. Apply fleet tactics to fighters. 5. Allow the player to assign fleet tactics.

This was somewhat implemented come Nova, but in Nova, there isn't widespread use. Exampe: Fighter-bombers. They should use a linear attack, fly by the player one at a time, launch missiles, and get out of there ASAP. Gunboats/Weapons platforms: Should stay at a considerable distance from the player (just in firing range), and attack relentlessly. As you can see, both of those were entered into Nova, somewhat. They only need to be tweaked a bit. Further, we need MORE ship classifications than those two (Swarming/retreat out of ammo, Standoff, I believe). I could think of more given time.

The latter of those 5 isn't so much a balance issue, it's just something that I think the player should have always been able to do. Not just- All ships attack! There should be more strategy.

~ SP

------------------
Fear the SpacePirate,
He made a (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/search.html")plug-in search page(/url)...
And he'll board your ship! -mrxak
*** (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/")InfernoStudios(/url) was last updated 06 June, 2004. ***

brindyblitz

What exactly is the effect of the swarming option anyhow? And how does the "Standoff attack" option affect ship w/out long range weapons?

Sorry if this question has been asked before....

slouch

Ya know, it's kind of funny. It seemed like such a great, yet simple, idea to me for making gameplay more challenging.

Quote

Originally posted by rmx256:
In my TC the AI has access to ships that under normal circumstances the player will NEVER have (barring piracy).

This is pretty much what ATMOS did in the Nova stock scenario. The player can buy the base variant, but the higher variants must either be captured or granted access to via storylines.

What I was proposing above was an attempt to make it one step more challenging. The idea is that the player will NEVER have the same ship as the AI, even if they have the same ship. (If that makes any sense). The handicap outfits would necessarily make the player's ship less capable, barring buyable/grantable upgrades, of course.

Quote

Originally posted by SpacePirate:
Yes, i was about to point that skillmult field out. I believe it multiplies (as the name suggests) the shield, armor, shield recharge, armor rebuild, ionization, deionization, speed, maneuver, and accel values, and probably the Strength as well, by whatever value is entered. So, if 64 is entered in, all statistics are multiplied by .64. If a value of 148 is entered, all stats are multiplied by 1.48.

So far as my tests have shown regarding the govt SkillMult field, it does not effect shields, shield recharge, armor, armor recharge, max ionization, or de-ionization. Speed and acceleration are the documented changes, and seem to work. (They are kind of difficult to test for along with turn rate). And, I'm not so sure a strength change would do much for in-flight AI differences, aside from maybe alter ship capture odds or # of kills towards combat rating. But, I haven't tested for strength changes.

Maybe the example I gave above wasn't the best I could have offered. If I skipped the mention of speed attributes and went straight for shields and armor, I might have gotten my point across more clearly. I'm aware of the govt and ship SkillMult fields, but so far as my own tests have shown me, they only effect speed, acceleration, and turning.

Quote

Originally posted by SpacePirate:
Slouch, one thing about this is that THAT was the reason ATMOS added in ship variants. Driving around downtown in real life, you will really only usually see stock cars around. I doubt this will change, it seems to be human nature to get things that work, and only a handful of people actually 1. Have the money to do serious modifications, and 2. Have the time and will to do those modifications.
In Nova, the player has both the time and the money to do those modifications, and that is where the game differs in real life. You are never pressed to leave the planet, because there time stands still. Just a thought. Perhaps more use of Qxxx could change that a bit, but not by much.
One more major difference between the AI and the Human players, is that players can dodge bullets. Do you, as a player, just sit there and take every railgun bolt that comes your way? Hell no, you get out of the way. Does the computer? Of course. If the AI could dodge bullets, it would make things quite a bit more interesting.

Wow. I'm really not too sure what the relevance of all that is to the idea of handicapping the player. My original post was in no way, shape or form an attempt to make the game more "real". I'm simply offering a method for greater difficulty of in-flight gameplay.

Quote

Originally posted by SpacePirate:
In summation, there are a few things I think Nova needed to make it a serious challenge to me. 1. Make the AI dodge bullets. 2. Restrict the players time somewhat, and give them additional expenses. 3. Make more fleet types, and program in fleet tactics. 4. Apply fleet tactics to fighters. 5. Allow the player to assign fleet tactics.
This was somewhat implemented come Nova, but in Nova, there isn't widespread use. Exampe: Fighter-bombers. They should use a linear attack, fly by the player one at a time, launch missiles, and get out of there ASAP. Gunboats/Weapons platforms: Should stay at a considerable distance from the player (just in firing range), and attack relentlessly. As you can see, both of those were entered into Nova, somewhat. They only need to be tweaked a bit. Further, we need MORE ship classifications than those two (Swarming/retreat out of ammo, Standoff, I believe). I could think of more given time.

I really had no intention of turning this topic into a "I wish could do X in EVN" type of topic. I thought I was offering a concrete way of accomplishing more challenging gameplay with the current engine. I guess not...

------------------

Dr. Trowel

Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
**I really had no intention of turning this topic into a "I wish could do X in EVN" type of topic. I thought I was offering a concrete way of accomplishing more challenging gameplay with the current engine. I guess not...
**

Well, I got that, anyway. I mentioned the SkillMult field in case you'd missed it, and in the hopes that I'd learn more about it either way. It looks like there is, in fact, a difference of opinion on how much it does. (I just did a search -- could this really be the first topic to ever mention "Skillmult?" It hardly seems possible.

So I'll ask something specific about the changes you tried out. I'm guessing that before you modified every ship in the game, you first tried just giving the player ship the handicapping outfits, and that you found that this slowed down the player ship too much for the game to still be fun. Is that right? If not, it certainly would make your plug simpler and more compatible with others if it didn't re-write every ship resource.

(This message has been edited by Dr. Trowel (edited 07-28-2004).)

slouch

Quote

Originally posted by Dr. Trowel:
So I'll ask something specific about the changes you tried out. I'm guessing that before you modified every ship in the game, you first tried just giving the player ship the handicapping outfits, and that you found that this slowed down the player ship too much for the game to still be fun. Is that right? If not, it certainly would make your plug simpler and more compatible with others if it didn't re-write every ship resource.

Hehe. Yeah, I did test it with just the handicaps first. It just made the slow ships too slow for my tastes. (Even on 2X play mode). I'm just used to getting all the upgrades I can for a ship.

It really didn't take more than a few seconds to alter all the ships, anyway. The handy-dandy spreadsheet editing makes that easy for this sort of thing.

Edit: smacks forehead There was another reason that I didn't just give the handicaps to the player without editing all of the ships.

If I had done that, some ships in the players hands would have had their shield and shield recharge values go below zero, which I thought to be a bad thing. If not a tad unfair for the player.

------------------

(This message has been edited by slouch (edited 07-28-2004).)

SpacePirate

Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
**Ya know, it's kind of funny. It seemed like such a great, yet simple, idea to me for making gameplay more challenging.

I really had no intention of turning this topic into a "I wish could do X in EVN" type of topic. I thought I was offering a concrete way of accomplishing more challenging gameplay with the current engine. I guess not...

**

Heh, I think I could have phrased those better. What I was pointing out were the actual things that make the human player so much different from a CPU player, and why in Nova, the player's ship will always be better than any other ship in Nova. It seems I used real-world examples a bit too much there...

In short, because the player has unlimited time to make upgrades on-planet, and has no "real" expenses such as food, he/she has plenty of money to put towards their ship. I then went on to suggest that intuitive use of Qxxx and adding invented expenses could limit the player's time and money somewhat, thus bringing them more on par with CPU ships- making the game more challenging. Sorry if you misunderstood.

You are correct that the latter is a bit wistful, but even so, I put several valid points in there. Most specifically, the fleet tactics are mentioned are in the Nova scenario, those fighter-bombers I mentioned are, in essence, exactly like the Phoenix Auroran ships. What I meant to get across is that, like above, we should give the player expenses to "even the score", and tweak our fleets and fighters to use specific tactics to their advantages. Both of those goals are quite doable in Nova. The Phoenix does the fighter-bomber like a charm, the Pirate Carrier does the weapons platform. Those are two configurations that did work, we need to come up with even more. I think developers should never just "add ships", I believe they should put at least some time into giving each ship an in-game purpose, as opposed to the cannon fodder most of them are.

I guess I'm sorry for cluttering those points with the irrelevant real-world allusions and by mentioning the shortcomings of the current engine. They seemed to make sense at the time, but I guess they made my actual points a bit too subtle for a casual glance.

~ SpacePirate

(edits: Forgot:)

Ah yes, as for the skill mult, it doesn't seem to do the armor and shields, as you mentioned. However, though unlikely, Strength may be a factor. Strength is what causes enemy ships to run away, you would think that more skilled governments would evoke more fear from their enemies. Of course, the skillmult field was carried down from EV/O, so it very well may have exactly the same function as in those games.

------------------
Fear the SpacePirate,
He made a (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/search.html")plug-in search page(/url)...
And he'll board your ship! -mrxak
*** (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/")InfernoStudios(/url) was last updated 06 June, 2004. ***

(This message has been edited by SpacePirate (edited 07-29-2004).)

slouch

Quote

Originally posted by SpacePirate:
Ah yes, as for the skill mult, it doesn't seem to do the armor and shields, as you mentioned. However, though unlikely, Strength may be a factor. Strength is what causes enemy ships to run away, you would think that more skilled governments would evoke more fear from their enemies. Of course, the skillmult field was carried down from EV/O, so it very well may have exactly the same function as in those games.

Ok, I see your point with strength, now. I just ran a few tests with it, and it also does not seem to be effected by the govt SkillMult. In the process, I also ruled out turn rate as a possibility. So far, speed and acceleration (as advertised) seem to be the only attributes effected.

Quote

Originally posted by SpacePirate:
You are correct that the latter is a bit wistful, but even so, I put several valid points in there. Most specifically, the fleet tactics are mentioned are in the Nova scenario, those fighter-bombers I mentioned are, in essence, exactly like the Phoenix Auroran ships. What I meant to get across is that, like above, we should give the player expenses to "even the score", and tweak our fleets and fighters to use specific tactics to their advantages. Both of those goals are quite doable in Nova. The Phoenix does the fighter-bomber like a charm, the Pirate Carrier does the weapons platform. Those are two configurations that did work, we need to come up with even more. I think developers should never just "add ships", I believe they should put at least some time into giving each ship an in-game purpose, as opposed to the cannon fodder most of them are.

I see your point here as well. A ship's payload, weapon types, inherent attributes, and AI 'flag' tactics and AI type (as defined in the ship resource) are certainly huge factors in creating a competent AI opponent. But, they are fairly well documented in the Nova Bible, and can be observed in action in the Nova scenario. What I didn't say in my original post was that I thought I was offering an undocumented (yet simple and effective) means of making combat more difficult. Which is why I never mentioned the SkillMult fields or AI tactics flags. Certainly, all working in conjunction could create formidable opponents.

------------------

SpacePirate

Quote

Originally posted by slouch: I see your point here as well. A ship's payload, weapon types, inherent attributes, and AI 'flag' tactics and AI type (as defined in the ship resource) are certainly huge factors in creating a competent AI opponent. But, they are fairly well documented in the Nova Bible, and can be observed in action in the Nova scenario. What I didn't say in my original post was that I thought I was offering an undocumented (yet simple and effective) means of making combat more difficult. Which is why I never mentioned the SkillMult fields or AI tactics flags. Certainly, all working in conjunction could create formidable opponents.

In all fairness, adjusting ship stats isn't entirely undocumented.

I don't really think that making the enemies ships a bit faster or stronger than the players really makes it that much more challenging. In my personal experience, it was always my tactics, and the AI's lack of them that made a difference. Because of those tactics, I could almost always take out a Fed Destroyer (Not carrier, really... Those fighters'll do a bit of damage. ;)) in a Shuttle, so long as I had decent ranged weapons. The player can dodge long-distance railgun shots, the AI can't. Simple as that.

~ SP

------------------
Fear the SpacePirate,
He made a (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/search.html")plug-in search page(/url)...
And he'll board your ship! -mrxak
*** (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/")InfernoStudios(/url) was last updated 06 June, 2004. ***

slouch

Well, I really can't dispute that there are expert EVx players out there that can adapt to and overcome anything that might be thrown at them. However, I do think that there are many players who are more reliant on the ship's strength and weapons of choice than they may want to admit to themselves. But, that's just speculation on my part.

One subject that seems to come up around here periodically is the idea of making 'AI Only' ship types. There are many ways of implementing this, but one limiting factor always seems to be ship capture. Having standard EVx style ship capture and AI only ships seem to be mutually exclusive endeavors. There just seems to be too many roadblocks, like the OnCapture field being executed as soon as ship capture is successful, rather than only if the player takes the ship as their own. AI only ships having zero crew will do the trick, but does not allow for 'normal' ship boarding and capture. (If that is an issue for the developer).

Having player handicap outfits, which could include negative mod type outfits and AI only weapons, could be a solution to this problem. Of course, not all developers need something like this, but many have expressed interest in it. I think there are enough possibilities with the idea of player handicaps that the goal behind creating AI only ships can be reached, without having to actually create AI only ships and limit ship capture.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the merits of this idea.

------------------

SpacePirate

Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
**Well, I really can't dispute that there are expert EVx players out there that can adapt to and overcome anything that might be thrown at them. However, I do think that there are many players who are more reliant on the ship's strength and weapons of choice than they may want to admit to themselves. But, that's just speculation on my part.

One subject that seems to come up around here periodically is the idea of making 'AI Only' ship types. There are many ways of implementing this, but one limiting factor always seems to be ship capture. Having standard EVx style ship capture and AI only ships seem to be mutually exclusive endeavors. There just seems to be too many roadblocks, like the OnCapture field being executed as soon as ship capture is successful, rather than only if the player takes the ship as their own. AI only ships having zero crew will do the trick, but does not allow for 'normal' ship boarding and capture. (If that is an issue for the developer).

Having player handicap outfits, which could include negative mod type outfits and AI only weapons, could be a solution to this problem. Of course, not all developers need something like this, but many have expressed interest in it. I think there are enough possibilities with the idea of player handicaps that the goal behind creating AI only ships can be reached, without having to actually create AI only ships and limit ship capture.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the merits of this idea.

**

I really do like the handicap outfits idea. And in fact, they could work with AI only ships. All you need is a crön to ensure that the player only has one of each handicap at a time. It is fairly simple to implement. However, the only problem is that the crön won't take effect until you leave the system, or perhaps until you land. Comments?

~ SP

------------------
Fear the SpacePirate,
He made a (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/search.html")plug-in search page(/url)...
And he'll board your ship! -mrxak
*** (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/")InfernoStudios(/url) was last updated 06 June, 2004. ***

slouch

As long as the handicap outfit isn't persistent, it won't carry over to a newly acquired ship. If you're changing the player's ship via an operator, just be sure to Dxxx any handicaps as well. It would really depend on the scenario in question. Handicaps could easily be made as default items on ships, if you have enough open fields for them, also depending on the number and types of handicaps that you need.

------------------

Ambrosia Garden Archive

Navigation

Account

Navigation

Account

An idea for more formidable AI