What are your feelings on EV/O as science fiction?

This is what I think SF is: stories that revolve some how around science or the person of the scientist (or maybe the technologist).

Stuff which is just about space and galactic conquest isn't (in my view) necessarily science-fiction. There was an old derisory term in the SF community: space opera.

My feeling is that EV/O can be either. But does it make for a more satisfying game if (like my favourites Angels of Vengeance and Eye of Orion) the story does turn either on scientific discovery or the person of the scientist?

Comments, please.

------------------

M A R T I N • T U R N E R

"Space Opera" definately.

------------------
"durnaya sobatchka!"

AOL/AIM-Nador26

Yahoo Messenger-OctoberFost

(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/octoberfost")http://www.geocities.com/octoberfost(/url)

I think EV, in and of itself, is not limited to either. It is very capable of expressing both.

You have to remember that there are three levels of science fiction to run by.

1. Science Reality: Here, everthing that we have and use today could be put to use in another beliveable manner.

2. Science Theoretical: Here, technologies could be built an put to use in a manner never seen before. It's possible for it to come about, but never quite proven.

3. Science Fantasy: Here, technologies have no limits that are bound by reality. These technologies also are most probably impossible.

A good enviroment in EV should probably have a second level of fiction (i.e. possible, not proven). These technologies revolve around Science Opera.

Sincerely,
Zeta

------------------
Axis Software-

In my view, a good EV quotient would be 70-75% "space opera," with just enough "serious lit" mixed in to make for an interesting storyline. Kind of like Marvel Comics during the '80s.

------------------
PlanetPhil
what is to give light must endure burning

Nova would have to be described as more Science Fiction than Space Opera. I'm also not entirely in agreement with your definition of SciFi. SciFi, I believe, as did Asimov, is getting across the messages, viewpoint, opinions and values of today using the setting technology and backdrop of tomorrow.

all the best,

dave (pipeline)

------------------
(url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")The EVO Chronicles: Tales of Life with the Blast Shield Down(/url)

Interesting view.

I agree with you that SF is really making comments about life today. However, what about SF set in the past, such as Gibson's 'The Difference Engine', or SF set in an entirely unrelated and possibly less technologically advanced culture -- such as Asimov's own 'Nightfall', and some of the Ursula LeGuin short stories, and, of course, Philip **** 's 'Man in the High Castle'?

I'm glad to hear that Nova is going to be SF rather than space opera -- I agree with Zeta that EV can express either, but as a lot of plug-ins are space opera, I think it's time to redress the balance.

Regards

Martin

------------------

M A R T I N • T U R N E R

Here's what I interpret as Space Opera and science fiction, Space opera would be just stuff that happens in the future, while Science fiction is about how that future came to be. Under this definition, what would Star Wars be? Most people think of it as science fiction, but these definitions point it to being mostly Space Opera. While Star Trek, is all about discoveries and impossible things today being possible. Star Wars has a bit of this, but its more a fantasy space opera. What do you think?

Chamrin

I agree — Star Wars is really a fairy tale set in a science-fiction context. It's a great story, and very well told, but there's a lot of glossing over the science stuff — like the Science Fantasy that Zeta is talking about.

Star Trek is (I would say) definitely Science-Fiction. It may be based on a lot science-fantasy stuff, but look at the place of Spock as science-officer, and the number of times that science (and the kind of basic physics that we can all appreciate) comes to the rescue.

------------------

M A R T I N • T U R N E R

I was thinking a bit about this on my way home, Star Wars isn't a science fiction movie, its more of a Fantasy movie with futuristic technology in the past. George Lucas shouldn't try to make it Sci-Fi, he did a little in Episode 1, remember the metachlorians? wasn't that lame, took all the mystery out of the force. So I pretend that part didn't exist in the movie, if they were Jedi, they were supposed to be confident in the force, they wouldn't need some machine to tell them Anikin was strong, they should have known.

Back to EV, I agree, it mostly is space opera, wars and stuff, that can happen in anytime period, the technology is great and all, but its new ideas that make something Science fiction, and there weren't many of those in EV or EVO.

Chamrin

Quote

Originally posted by Chamrin:
**I was thinking a bit about this on my way home, Star Wars isn't a science fiction movie, its more of a Fantasy movie with futuristic technology in the past. George Lucas shouldn't try to make it Sci-Fi, he did a little in Episode 1, remember the metachlorians? wasn't that lame, took all the mystery out of the force.
**

Funny-- I was thinking about this a couple days back. I too was irritated by the introduction of the midi-chloridians (microscopic lifeforms) as an explanation for/source of the Force. It seemed to unnecessarily undermine the original and mystical concept. Granted, this more-scientific explanation allows you to go around with a tricorder (say) searching for people strong with the Force, but who really needs that? Adrian Paul didn't need an electronic device to search out other immortals on "Highlander." (Sigh...that was a great show...) Instead, the Force now emanates from bugs in the blood. Yick.

------------------
PlanetPhil
what is to give light must endure burning

In the Highlander, one could sense the presence of another immortal (I thought they were all movies, 1, 2, and 3). Same goes for Star Wars for the first three movies that came out. Darth Vader would be standing in an imperial ship and say "The force is strong here. A level of force I hadn't felt since-" and that was when Obi-Wan came on board. But, I think the reason why Lucas put in meti-chlorians was so that people wouldn't have this 'feeling' about maybe whether someone might be 'the one'. Having meti-chlorians give the audience absolute assurance that this kid was the one. I think that sometimes you need that assurance, and not some drifting thought. It grounds your ideas.

-Zeta

------------------
Axis Software-

No, because there never was any "one" at least in my opinion, I think it ended up being two, Luke and Leia, together they are stronger than even the Emperor, they brought balance to the force. If GL wanted to make people sure that Anikin was the one they were looking for, he should just have had the council say, "indeed he is stronger than every Jedi today". Or something like that. Also, its better as a drifting thought, if you ground the ideas in Star Wars, you take all the fantasy away from it. Which I don't like.

Chamrin

At one point, in shooting an episode of Doctor Who, the director realised that there was no plausible way for the Doctor to get out of the situation he was in. Without blinking an eyelid, the actor Tom Baker said 'Reverse the polartiy of the neutron flow'. This went into the script, into the filming, and appeared towards the climax of the episode. The fact that it was pure bunkum and had no basis in science or even in the script didn't matter -- it matched the need of entertainment for that moment. The phrase was repeated in many episodes as a kind of in-joke. However, Doctor Who move steadily away from its Science Fiction roots, becoming more and more children's entertainment (also losing the horror element).

I feel that the midi-chlorians explanation is in the same league -- it sounds like mitochondria or chloroplasts, which (it is currently theorised) are symbiotic life forms which invaded cells billions of years ago. However, it goes nowhere to explaining the unified nature of the force, or its light and dark sides. In that sense, it names a mechanism which has no built in appropriateness for what it is supposed to be doing.

Strangely, Phantom Menace is also much more aimed at children than episodes IV-VI (notwithstanding the Ewoks).

Martin

------------------

M A R T I N • T U R N E R

Science Fiction needs roots, sometimes, and I think that when it does it lends a certain level of reality to the whole enviroment. It makes you feel as though you could almost do it, that it could work in our world too.
A Science Fiction story is nice to spice up reality when reality isn't all that great. One could strive to do it someday. But, once you take away it's reality roots, it's only a dream.

They're both very enjoyable. It just matters on what type of dreams you want. Real or non.

Sincerely,
Zeta

------------------
Axis Software-

Well, here is my little opinion on Space Opera and Science Fiction, which has already been said numorous times, but here it is anyway:

I believe Space Opera to be considered by most people as Science Fiction, but aimed more at entertainment then realism. Science Fiction is similar to a Space Opera, but with more realism. I recall in an interview I say with George Lucas that he called Star Wars a space opera (something about deciding to write a space opera when he was 14 that turned into starwars). Thats my quick little opionion.

Yeah, TPM was aimed at the kids. No blood or gore at all, I don't even think anyone cursed much aside from "hell" once or twice. Not that blood, gore, and cursing is GOOD, but in real life it happens more than in the moves (the cursing atleast) and the lack thereof gives a sense of unrealism. Not that SW is going for realism, but come on! There was just a hint of blood when Maul was cut in half, but he should have been spewing all over the place. Sure, there wasn't any blood in the original triligy, but there was storm troopers falling like flies. Here its robots. Well, thats my .00005˘

P.S. If I don't see Jar Jar's death scene in the first 15 minutes of Episode II, I am going to get up and leave the theatre

------------------
--
"Do or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Well, here is my little opinion on Space Opera and Science Fiction, which has already been said numorous times, but here it is anyway:

I believe Space Opera to be considered by most people as Science Fiction, but aimed more at entertainment then realism. Science Fiction is similar to a Space Opera, but with more realism. I recall in an interview I say with George Lucas that he called Star Wars a space opera (something about deciding to write a space opera when he was 14 that turned into starwars). Thats my quick little opionion.

Yeah, TPM was aimed at the kids. No blood or gore at all, I don't even think anyone cursed much aside from "hell" once or twice. Not that blood, gore, and cursing is GOOD, but in real life it happens more than in the moves (the cursing atleast) and the lack thereof gives a sense of unrealism. Not that SW is going for realism, but come on! There was just a hint of blood when Maul was cut in half, but he should have been spewing all over the place. Sure, there wasn't any blood in the original triligy, but there was storm troopers falling like flies. Here its robots. Well, thats my .00005˘

P.S. If I don't see Jar Jar's death scene in the first 15 minutes of Episode II, I am going to get up and leave the theatre

------------------
--
"Do or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:
At one point, in shooting an episode of Doctor Who, the director realised that there was no plausible way for the Doctor to get out of the situation he was in. Without blinking an eyelid, the actor Tom Baker said 'Reverse the polartiy of the neutron flow'. This went into the script, into the filming, and appeared towards the climax of the episode. The fact that it was pure bunkum and had no basis in science or even in the script didn't matter -- it matched the need of entertainment for that moment. The phrase was repeated in many episodes as a kind of in-joke...

Baker truly was the best of the Doctors Who. I recall pitying the actors on the various Star Trek shows as they dealt with extended technobabble. You could see their eyes glazing over...

Quote

I feel that the midi-chlorians explanation is in the same league -- it sounds like mitochondria or chloroplasts, which (it is currently theorised) are symbiotic life forms which invaded cells billions of years ago. However, it goes nowhere to explaining the unified nature of the force, or its light and dark sides. In that sense, it names a mechanism which has no built in appropriateness for what it is supposed to be doing.

Deus ex bacteria , sort of. It's odd that Lucas felt that he needed the device, since he didn't seem to feel that way in the middle three episodes and nobody seemed to mind. He made a conscious decision to ground the nature of the Force, to de-mystify it. Makes you wonder why.

Quote

**Strangely, Phantom Menace is also much more aimed at children than episodes IV-VI (notwithstanding the Ewoks).
**

Hmm. Actually (setting the engaging young Anakin aside) I thought Episode I was the darkest and most 'mature' installment of the four, even more than 'The Empire Strikes Back' (still my favorite).

Does anyone else think that Lucas will have to do Episodes Seven, Eight, and Nine? I mean, this 'first' trilogy he's doing now can only end as a real downer. Anakin becomes Vader, the Jedi all die (or mostly die), the war begins in earnest. Jeez. You'd like your last memories of the series to be more pleasant, wouldn't you...?

------------------
PlanetPhil
what is to give light must endure burning

Quote

Originally posted by PlanetPhil:
**Hmm. Actually (setting the engaging young Anakin aside) I thought Episode I was the darkest and most 'mature' installment of the four, even more than 'The Empire Strikes Back' (still my favorite).

Does anyone else think that Lucas will have to do Episodes Seven, Eight, and Nine? I mean, this 'first' trilogy he's doing now can only end as a real downer. Anakin becomes Vader, the Jedi all die (or mostly die), the war begins in earnest. Jeez. You'd like your last memories of the series to be more pleasant, wouldn't you...?
**

The Phantom Menace in no way was more mature than any of the others, especially not The Empire Strikes Back, (my favorite as well.) There is more drama, emotion, and gore in the fight between Vader and Luke than all of TPM combined. And even George Lucas himself said TPM was a light, adventure story, with things getting darker from here on in..

No, he doesn't have to do 7-9, and he won't. And so far, there are few pleasant memories from the prequels, save Darth Maul, the stunning (albeit short) images of Coruscant, and Qui-Gon's commanding presence. In my opinion, one of the best scenes from the movie is when the Jedi, the Queen, and her soldiers are running towars the door from the hangar, and it slides open, revealing Darth Maul, apprentice to the Phantom Menace. It's a dark, frightening moment, where the Sith finally shows up. One of the worst? When Darth Sidious, (disgustingly obvious as Senator Palpatine) says (about the Gungans) "Wipe them out. All of them." Then, not a single cgi-gungan gets killed in the entire battle. At least a few ewoks died heroically in Return of the Jedi. And I agree with Dave. Jar Jar was a huge mistake from the beginning... As were the midichlorians. Why explain something mystical and mysterious? It gives a scientific explanation for something that should never be explained scientifically.

Again, it is very easy to criticize TPM as a whole, but unless you've truly ever tried to write a movie, you can't realize how hard it is, though honestly, I can say I have..

~Bomb

All fair comment, but let's remember that George Lucas was trying to entertain. I've seen TPM three times now (ok I've seen SW dozens of times, but it took my four years before I saw it three times on the big screen) and, well, I'm still entertained. I will definitely want to go and see the sequel, no matter how derivative.

But how about real hard core SF in EV/O. Anybody working on something right now?

------------------

M A R T I N • T U R N E R

Interesting topic. I originally searched to see when/ if Mr. Turner will release a new Frozen Heart TC, (Que pasa, Mr. T?) but found myself pondering the questions raised. Here are my ponderings, for what they're worth.

1. The Star Wars movies are getting progressively more immature because their predominant purpose, like most new cartoons, is to sell action figure toys, clothing with logos, and other junk to the 6-13 set.

2)The best stories to me are those that mix the elements of space opera ( the grand questions of love, life, death, war and peace, tolerance, compassion, etc) with elements of scientific speculation. I guess you'd call it "possible" science on a level 2 with someone's taxonomy above.

"Impossible" is such a relative term, however. Most of the way we live today would be considered impossible, probably satanic magic by any human living a millenia or so ago.

3. I agree with the derision of techno-babble. To make a sci-fi story compelling to me, there should be at least an attempt to incorporate speculation about how emerging technologies would play out in the universe. Right now, the discoveries about alternate universes, the preponderance of unexplainable dark matter, folded dimensions, and other outlandish notions inspire such a wealth of speculation that speculative fiction is the best place (outside of a doctorate and a well-equipped lab with supercomputers) to explore these "possibilities".

4. I don't develop software or science, I occasionally develop stories. Therefore, I am most qualified, unfortunately, in the "space opera" field of endeavor; however, I keep striving for credibility.

mj

------------------
Want to know the rest of the story? Visit (url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewforum.php?f=32&sid;=")EVula's Webstory Forum(/url) to find out what happened in(url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewtopic.php?t=757") Reality, Chapter 3(/url), in(url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewtopic.php?p=6154#6154") 670NC Chapter 3(/url), and in (url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewtopic.php?t=818l") Hypergate - Blood and Stars(/url)