About those incorrect govt IDs in the EV:O port...

dsatt12

I started making plugins last week or so, and also started playing EV:O on my PC. I stumbled across a post on both the override board and here about the government IDs being off.

Is there some reason I'm missing as to why no one has edited override data 1 and posted the changed version somewhere? I already did this in evnew to add 128 to any govt ID in the 0-127 range in the comp missions field, but am I violating copyright or something? I figured since it is basically a plugin which is more or less freeware, it wouldn't be illegal to change it.

If this is kosher, I'll be happy to email the .rez version to anyone that wants it. It's only 150k or so. I saw in another thread where it needs converting on a mac (or through a ftp that supports macs, ect), but I don't know anyone with one these days. Sadly I heede the call of the dark side after my 486 started getting better software than my Apple IIGS, at least in terms of autocad and the like. Who knows though; I still might have been a mac person if Apple would have just given me a damn button to get that ^^^*%% disk out

Oh yeah- my email is dsatt12@hotmail.com

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"In America any boy may become President and I suppose it's just one of the risks he takes." -Adlai Stevenson

Dr. Trowel

Great! I have been itching to do a fix for this problem (as slouch already has), but haven't had the time lately.

If you want to send it my way -- use that 'lil "email" button at the top of my post -- I'll see about converting it to mac. If that works and you agree, I can put it (both mac & PC versions) on my E.S.W.P. within 48 hours. This will let us see if it gets any bug complaints for a couple weeks, so you can make sure that it is "clean" before uploading it to the add-ons page.

slouch

The reason I haven't shared my copy yet is because I wanted to work out all of the bugs in the misn resource. There are a few other issues in there, like incorrect translations of Override negators and such. (Most seem to relate to syst visbit changes, and another for the space mine fine mission). I dunno, I just think it would be silly to post a patch that will be obsolete once other problems get fixed.

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dsatt12

Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
**The reason I haven't shared my copy yet is because I wanted to work out all of the bugs in the misn resource. There are a few other issues in there, like incorrect translations of Override negators and such. (Most seem to relate to syst visbit changes, and another for the space mine fine mission). I dunno, I just think it would be silly to post a patch that will be obsolete once other problems get fixed.

**

That would make sense that one of you was working on other issues. I haven't even gotten past the first round of missions yet myself, so it's a tad bit harder to spot bugs. I'll send what I have over to Dr. Trowel- the more beta testers the better...

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"In America any boy may become President and I suppose it's just one of the risks he takes." -Adlai Stevenson

Zacha Pedro

dsatt12, the fact it is freeware doesn't mean it is open source, I'd wait for authorisation, before distributing a modified version. Or, at the very least, remove the readmes and replace with one (on the matter, to make a cross platform readme, we should put them as HTMLs, you don't need to make yourself a complicated one, there are text editors that can save in HTML) telling "this is a MODIFIED, UNSUPPORTED by Ambrosia, mod of the EV(O) ports for Nova", clearly state that, while it isn't your work, you are solely responsible for this and the errors it might contain, etc..., and have Moki agree first. Then only you might be safe. Even if you're only sending it to some chosen ones for beta testing (sorry, I'm not available).

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The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things you can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Eurocard Mastercard.

Dr. Trowel

My expectation is that ASW would not be upset by this fix -- there certainly already are a ton of plugs out there that contain modified versions of selected resources that were originally written by the paid scenario designers of EV, EVO, and EVN. In essence, this fix is not that different from a very extensive plug of the I-made-the-Kestrel-stronger variety.

Also, in this case the fix need not be distributed as a replacement for the "Override Data 1" file in the Nova Files folder. It can be a plug for the Nova Plug-ins folder, containing only misn resources.

I can't post dsatt12's fix on my site quite yet -- I have to email him about an issue, and I also want to give people a chance to let me know if they think I'm way off base here!

Slouch: I appreciate that you want to make sure that all misn-related issues are fixed in a single plug. If I remember correctly, Martin Turner put up a list of things that Port Authority fouls up -- I've never thought to methodically go through that list hunting for issues uncorrected in the EVO port. If that's what you are doing, or if you are just being diligent, observant, and clever on your own, great! Hopefully no one will put a faulty fix up on the add-ons page, where it will live to confuse people for years.

In the meanwhile, though, players are continuing to play EVO-N and come up against bugs we already know how to fix. If dsatt12's plug is on a web page, at least those players who check these web boards (or post their complaints here) will have a chance to have a better, if still imperfect, gaming experience. That's the philosophy behind my existing outfits fix, too -- it's a small something to make life a bit better for those of us unwilling to put off the Crescent Wars until Soviet mikee & friends finally bestow upon us the Big Update That Changes It All.

Zacha Pedro

Of course, Dr Trowel, I just wanted you folks to be a little careful as your motives are pure and it is a great idea, and would like to see it completed (never played the Nova ports though, go the originals!)

Quote

Originally posted by dsatt12:
**Who knows though; I still might have been a mac person if Apple would have just given me a damn button to get that ^^^*%% disk out:)

**

I know about the lack of a disk ejection button, and I know why it is so: it is because the Mac operating system is responsible for keeping resources and data accessible until no aplication wants to access them; therefore if you want to eject a disk, the system must first check that NO file is marked as open by an application because it must keep it accessible by this application as long as the application wants it. Even if only one file is marked as open, the OS vetoes the eject. When there is none file still open, only then does the system gives the clearance and ejects the disk/CD. Just like, when you disconnect an USB peripheral from a PC without warning, Windows doesn't like it (while, as long as it isn't an external drive with a disk inside, a Mac can stand it), if you force eject a disk by inserting a thin object while the Mac is running, it warns you you unceremoniously removed the disk (while a PC can stand it, but if it was a game CD and the game is running it will quickly quit, for instance, unable to access D:somedirectorysomefile).

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The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things you can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Eurocard Mastercard.

Azratax2

Personally I am thinking with Dr. Trowel. I doubt Ambrosia would mind in the least. Just do it right so there isnt a buggy plug on the addons page. (We really need EVula to go on a gunning spree and take out all the fix plugins. Thier download count steadilly rises, and yet it's known that they break current nova). I would love to see a fix like this come out, too, but i figure it's best left to osmeone who knows EVO better than I.

Quote

Originally posted by Zacha Pedro:
**

I know about the lack of a disk ejection button, and I know why it is so: <snip>

**

I understand the issue, but the problem always was that some program would malfunction and refuse to let go of a file on the disk, so you couldnt get the disk out. And sometimes if you got the disk out, even by using the appropriate method, and gave it back to your friend as he went home, it would ask for the disk back when you tried to shut down, with no option if you didnt have the disk! Also, by the way, WinXP seems to gracefully handle USB stuff being yanked out from under it. That was really annoying on win2k, cause just like the mac and the diskdrive, windows could never seem to "stop" the device so it could be removed wthout complaint.
-Az

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It is here. EVNEW Public Beta (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW(/url)
Stuffit is a piece of .sit.

slouch

Quote

Originally posted by Azratax2
I would love to see a fix like this come out, too, but i figure it's best left to osmeone who knows EVO better than I.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel the same way. I've been on a wild goose chase (of sorts) lately trying to hunt down and correct mistakes. But, I never even made a plug for Override. I don't have the original data. I'm probably better off leaving it to those who know it best.

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kauthor

I do have the original datas for EVO. I am not sure how big they are, so it might be better to AIM me later today. I wouldn't mind helping you.

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Zacha Pedro

Quote

Originally posted by Azratax2:
**I understand the issue, but the problem always was that some program would malfunction and refuse to let go of a file on the disk, so you couldnt get the disk out. And sometimes if you got the disk out, even by using the appropriate method, and gave it back to your friend as he went home, it would ask for the disk back when you tried to shut down, with no option if you didnt have the disk!
**

Yes, I had it happen to me and it's annoying, but the sytem is made thataway, and isn't responsible for ****************** programs who blocks files and the disk with it. Never used WinXP, I'm stuck (well, it's not that bad) with my school's Win2k.

I'll try to help on the matter of correcting the EVO port by checking the original data for you people (sorry, I just can't afford the internet time to download the port for EVN right now).

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The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things you can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Eurocard Mastercard.

Dr. Trowel

New on my E.S.W.P. (link in my sig): A draft version of a plug, by dsatt12, that responds to Student of Trinity's complaints about mission string "intermissions" in the EVO-N port by implementing the bug fix suggested by slouch. Thanks, everybody!

This may not resolve every last mission-related bug in the port of EVO to Nova, but it should definitely cut down on frustration for non-plug-makers who are currently battling the Voinians, keeping the Renegades at bay, or destabilizing the Crescent. I'll try to keep the E.S.W.P. updated with info on any new plugs that supercede this one.

My thought to everyone working on EVO port issues (welcome to our underappreciated little club, kauthor and ZP!): if we keep our fix plugs resource-type specific for now (one plug for missions, one for outfits, one for oops, etc.), it will be easier to keep track of which ones conflict with or supercede which others.

Zacha Pedro

Yeah, we should work on specific, separate and compatible between themselves plugs, but at the end we should put them all together in one plug, test it to death, make it somewhat approved by Ambrosia and officially release it.

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The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things you can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Eurocard Mastercard.

Dr. Trowel

Quote

Originally posted by Zacha Pedro:
**Yeah, we should work on specific, separate and compatible between themselves plugs, but at the end we should put them all together in one plug, test it to death, make it somewhat approved by Ambrosia and officially release it.

**

I'm with you except for one detail -- Soviet mikee, who might post here soon (edit: "will probably be posting here in a minute" was too presumptive), may be the only non-Ambrosia-salaried person who can decide what is "official" and get it posted in the "essentials" section of the ASW add-ons collection. Nonetheless, I think we should continue trying to fix things one-by-one in the meanwhile, as you say.

mikee: If you do check in on this discussion, you should also look in on slouch's investigation of a problem affecting the bar news function: (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum9/HTML/005147.html")http://www.AmbrosiaS...TML/005147.html(/url)

(This message has been edited by Dr. Trowel (edited 03-04-2004).)

slouch

For the sake of sharing information, and hopefully, collectively making the correct adjustments to the Override port, I would like to present my misn resource related notes. Maybe I'd be better off sending them to soviet mikee directly, but I hope he'll take the time to check in here. Heck, with any luck, he's already found and addressed most of these issues for his update.

Mission Resource Errors:

CompGovt - This error is the use of index numbers where Nova wants RID's. Fairly self explanatory what the fix for this is. Effects misns: 128-135, 149-150, 154-162, 169-177, 181-182, 184-199, 202-224, 226-242, 244-254, 259-260, 267, 278, 280-285, 290-318, 320-322, 324-329, 331-349, 351-383, 639.

Incorrect Negators - These errors are problems in the way Override negators were translated for Nova.
misn 182: !b1001 in Availability should be !b1
misn 325: !b1002 in Availability should be !b2
misn 253: !b1151 in On Success should be !b151
misn 308: !b1173 in On Success should be !b173
misn 639: !b1511 in On Success should be !b511

Outfits Granted Via Missions - This is a somewhat complex problem, and effects multiple fields. In some cases, it appears to be a simple oversight, while in others... you'll see.
misn 176: Should have g142 On Accept (Needle Jammer).
misn 176: Pay Val change from -30142 to 0. (This is how the item was granted in Override, it should not give any clean legal record rewards).
misn 365: Should have g146 On Success (Plasma Siphon).
misn 365: Pay Val change from -20146 to 0. (See above).

Now, here's the complicated part. The 0x0020 flag in Override was used to remove outfits granted on accepting a mission if the player failed or aborted said mission. Nova changed this, it is now the 'fail if scanned flag'. So...
misn 176: Should have d142 On Failure and On Abort
misn 183: Should have d145 On Failure and On Abort
misn 243: Should have d147 On failure and On Abort
misn 319: Should have d197 On failure and On Abort
(The 0x0020 flag should also be unchecked for all of the above missions as well).

This is a nice segue into Fail If Scanned missions. Differences in implementation: Override had a seperate flag (FailIfScanned) to denote this. ScanGovt field contained the RID of the government which considered this cargo illegal. Also, all governments other than the noted govt's enemy would consider this cargo illegal! This is much more difficult to implement with the Nova engine.

Missions in the port were (correctly) given the 0x0020 flag, but the scan mask and smuggling penalties are not set up. (Override did not have a ScanFine field, just a SmugPenalty field. I'm not sure if Port Authority handled this correctly). This problem effects misn: 166, 268-270, 273-277, 279, 326 (Not sure about that last one).

Critical Missions Flag - Override used flag 0x1000 to denote a critical mission, that is, it was offered first in bars. This flag is unused in Nova, since the engine now has a Display Weight field. So, the following missions should be given a display weight, in order to replicate the original scenario: 149, 160-162, 167, 172-174, 176-207, 221-222, 232-254, 262-266, 271, 278, 285-294, 296, 301-302, 306-308, 313-329, 331-343, 348-370, 376-383.

Whew, that's about all I have for the misn resource. Please feel free to add to or dispute any of this. I'd love to have others corroborate my findings.

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(This message has been edited by slouch (edited 03-04-2004).)

Dr. Trowel

Wow. That bowls me over. You've been busy!

Soviet mikee

stay tuned.

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Dr. Trowel

I've now got ConText dump files for both original EVO and the EVO Nova port downloadable through my web site, for the convenience of PC users and anyone else interested in the innards of Override. As I mentioned elsewhere, the results of putting EVO files through ConText are messy, but not totally useless.

If EVNEW includes some sort of table-view capability, I may have wasted my time putting up the Nova port data.... Oh well, it's done now.

Zacha Pedro

There's another thing that should be done with the missions (and by the same person who does the corrections to the missions): it's a fairly well-known loop-hole in Override that you can start both the Voinian storyline and the UE one, as well as both the igadzra and zidagar, just by having the two starting missions accepted at the same time. It was of course intended that they should not be done concurently, but it wasn't possible to set a bit at mission accept to prevent that. Now with Nova it is possible, and might be worth changing so that you cannot take both storylines any longer - if someone wants to do this anyway, they can obtain triple agent-like plugs.

EDIT: Oh, there's another thing with missions: it's well-known and documented that the Nova engine will not choose a planet susceptible of no longer appearing when choosing a destination for a random mission. Note that if all colocated systems contain the spöb - the same spöb, same ID , it can still choose this spöb as the destination of a random mission. But it's not the case with EVO which did not support spöb to appear in multiple systems, therefore each spöb in the EVO port situated in a system potentially changing will never receive a random mission. However, there is a way around this. We just need to put additional missions, that look exactly like the normal mission, whose starting planet is random but destination planet is always the söb subject to change. For New Calcutta (cleaned of the plague, and New tokyo along with it) however, it seems to me the change between before and after is just a change in the description of New Calcutta, so instead of changing everything via a visbit, we could just make the system no longer change and just have a {bXXXX,"first text","second text"} operator in the dësc.

Oh, and I just downloaded the EV and EVO ports for Nova.
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The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things you can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Eurocard Mastercard.

(This message has been edited by Zacha Pedro (edited 03-06-2004).)

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About those incorrect govt IDs in the EV:O port...