I've been perusing the Bible lately, but I can't seem to figure out a way of implementing a wacky idea I've got rattling around in my brainpan.

Basically, the idea is that when you buy a 'missile launcher' outfit, it's not associated with any particular missile type. Instead, it allows you to carry X missiles, of whatever mix you want. The idea here is to have ships carrying small amounts of missiles (4 or 6, or something in that range) with long refire delays, but the missiles themselves being extremely deadly.

I suspect the above isn't possible (at least not without some type of workaround), since if I'm reading the Bible correctly you can only assign one type of ammo to a weapon. But, I figured I'd ask since I've seen some other neat kludges here (the cloak-seeking torpedo comes to mind...).

I suppose a more orthodox way to do this would be to rework the existing launchers and lower their MaxAmmo fields (so a Radar missile launcher might be, say, 3 tons of mountings and guidance systems, plus two 1-ton missiles). Then you could mount a second launcher to double your payload (but then why do you need more infrastructure/guidance systems? argh), or a luncher of a different type.

Hrmm, just had a thought: I notice that ID #27 for Outfits is listed as "Increase Maximum." Does that only apply to outfits themselves, or can it be used to increase maximum ammunition somehow? For example, to make a "Missile Rack Expansion" that allows you to buy/carry more missiles of whatever type?

I searched the boards, but didn't come across any topics that seemed relevant. So, if I did miss them, feel free to flash-fry the noob.

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Here's a method:

Set the launcher to be some useless outfit. In the OnBuy field, set it to grant X (however many missiles you want them to be able to have) of an invisible, useless outfit. Then, when they buy a missile, set them to be given a launcher for that misssile as well (set the launcher to be invisible), and also set it to remove one of the invisi-outfits. When you sell the item, remove the launcher and give the player the invisi-outfit again.

EDIT: By the way, there's a relevant topic (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum9/HTML/004997.html")here.(/url)

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(This message has been edited by orcaloverbri9 (edited 01-17-2004).)

Quote

Originally posted by orcaloverbri9:
**Here's a method:

Set the launcher to be some useless outfit. In the OnBuy field, set it to grant X (however many missiles you want them to be able to have) of an invisible, useless outfit. Then, when they buy a missile, set them to be given a launcher for that misssile as well (set the launcher to be invisible), and also set it to remove one of the invisi-outfits. When you sell the item, remove the launcher and give the player the invisi-outfit again.

EDIT: By the way, there's a relevant topic here.

**

The problem here is that you can only fire the missiles once, because you cant make nova eval the OnSell field when the missile is fired as ammo. Read up on how it's being done in the link orca posted.
-Az

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Hrmm. I read over the thread that was linked (and tried to follow the BORC thing...), but I don't think I'm ready to use tokens and crons and whatnot that thoroughly yet. :frown:

I've been fiddling around, and I think I've mostly got my second idea working. I made the following outfits:

1. "IR Missile Launcher" (4 tons, 1 Maximum, Increase Outfit ("IR Missile"), OnPurchase b45, OnSell !b45)
2. "IR Missile Rack" (2 tons, 4 Maximum, Increase Outfit ("IR Missile"), Availability b45)
3. "IR Missile" (2 Maximum, Availability b45)

The b45 bit check is there to keep a player from buying missiles or a rack for a launcher s/he doesn't have, which is kind of silly.

The idea is that you buy a launcher, which gives you access to 2 missiles. Then you buy an additional rack, which allows you to carry 2 more missiles; a third allows you to carry 6, and so on. One strange thing I noticed is that it seems you need two "Increase Outfit" modifiers before the modified outfit was actually increased, but a third, fourth, or fifth modifier worked normally.

I also made an "IR Missile" weapon (basically the stock IR with more damage, not intended to be balanced at the moment) and tried giving it a little Recoil. It's a nice effect; I wonder why it wasn't used in the stock scenario.

So. It's not as elegant as having one launcher that fired multiple missile types, but it mostly works. It looks kind of tacky on the Extras page with "1 launcher 4 racks, 10 missiles" (and can you imagine having 3 or 4 types of launchers and the associated racks? ugh), but I'm not sure what (if anything) could be done about that.

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Quote

Originally posted by WarLocke:
**Hrmm. I read over the thread that was linked (and tried to follow the BORC thing...), but I don't think I'm ready to use tokens and crons and whatnot that thoroughly yet.:frown:

I've been fiddling around, and I think I've mostly got my second idea working. I made the following outfits:

1. "IR Missile Launcher" (4 tons, 1 Maximum, Increase Outfit ("IR Missile"), OnPurchase b45, OnSell !b45)
2. "IR Missile Rack" (2 tons, 4 Maximum, Increase Outfit ("IR Missile"), Availability b45)
3. "IR Missile" (2 Maximum, Availability b45)

The b45 bit check is there to keep a player from buying missiles or a rack for a launcher s/he doesn't have, which is kind of silly.

The idea is that you buy a launcher, which gives you access to 2 missiles. Then you buy an additional rack, which allows you to carry 2 more missiles; a third allows you to carry 6, and so on. One strange thing I noticed is that it seems you need two "Increase Outfit" modifiers before the modified outfit was actually increased, but a third, fourth, or fifth modifier worked normally.

I also made an "IR Missile" weapon (basically the stock IR with more damage, not intended to be balanced at the moment) and tried giving it a little Recoil. It's a nice effect; I wonder why it wasn't used in the stock scenario.

So. It's not as elegant as having one launcher that fired multiple missile types, but it mostly works. It looks kind of tacky on the Extras page with "1 launcher 4 racks, 10 missiles" (and can you imagine having 3 or 4 types of launchers and the associated racks? ugh), but I'm not sure what (if anything) could be done about that.

**

That works. A max of 2 seems a bit low though, if they are the same strength as the stock scenario. I prefer magazine over rack, because in many cases, missiles are thought of as being fired right from a rack.

I did something similar, but i went a bit farther: I had two versions of every launcher, one for fighters, that was small, light, and took a gun slot, and one that was heavy, took no gun slot, and had a much higher maximum, and could have expanded ammunition bays. Implemented like so:
The principle of a rack is that it is a simple rack on the outside of the ship with wires running to it to feed targeting info.
Outf:

128: Missile Rack Weap 128, Increase max(132), 4 tons, takes gun slot. Avail !o129
129: Missile Laucher Weap 129, Increase max(133), 15 tons, Avail !o128
130: Missile Magazine Increase max(133), 5 tons, Avail o129
131: Missile;token Avail !o128 & !o129, max 0, hide if avail not true.
132: Missile;rack Avail o128, ammo 128, max 12, hide if avail not true
133: Missile;Launcher Avail o129, ammo 128, max 150, hide if avail not true

Weap 128 and 129 are identical. Both have ammotype 0 (so they pull from weap 128's ammo). The only difference is that capships get given 129 and fighters get 128 (if there was only one version, the engine would give all ships that came with one the version with the lowest RID, so this wouldnt work).
The token/rack/launcher missile types are rigged such that it looks to the player like all the missiles are the same. Thier descs are also customized (a rack launcher would mention thier use on fighters, and say "You can fit 12 missiles in each rack" while the other launcher one wold say "Each capitol ship launching system can fit 150 of these missiles" (the token one would say "You need a launching system to purchace missiles")
All the descs say that you cant have a rack if you have a launcher an vice-versa (and it wouldnt make sense ingame.
-Az

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(This message has been edited by Azratax2 (edited 01-18-2004).)

Quote

That works. A max of 2 seems a bit low though, if they are the same strength as the stock scenario. I prefer magazine over rack, because in many cases, missiles are thought of as being fired right from a rack.

Well, I just wanted to do it as a proof-of-concept at the moment; the final version would definitely not be balanced with the stock scenario (the IR I cooked up does 80 Mass/50 Energy damage, roughly equivalent to an EW or Gravimetric missile), and giving them to the AI would be torture for the player (as they just pulverize stock fighters). I've got a half-baked idea for a (very small) TC I'm considering, and I'm just trying out different concepts before I have to 'commit' to them, if that makes any sense. Missiles would only be found in my TC on military ships and the occassional pirate, for the most part. A gunboat may carry 4 rockets, a cruiser 12, etc.

And you're right, 'magazine' sounds better than rack. Let me go make a note of that...

Quote

I did something similar, but i went a bit farther:

Indeed you did! Mind if I crib that setup from you? It's much more elegant than what I worked up. I like the idea of having different launchers for fighters and capital ships, but I would think all launchers would take up a gun slot; seems kind of funny ("Yeah, you got yer 12 gun mounts on this here destroyer, be we left ya enough hull space to fit in a few missile tubes..."). I guess it depends on the 'scale' of missile you're using, though - letting capital ships mount hundreds of Nova-style missiles isn't much of a problem, but if each missile did 80+ damage...

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(url="http://"http://s92592496.onlinehome.us/Files/EV_Nova/SecondaryCPL.zip")SecondaryCPL(/url), (url="http://"http://s92592496.onlinehome.us/Files/EV_Nova/MissileRacks.zip")MissileRacks(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by WarLocke:
**Indeed you did! Mind if I crib that setup from you? It's much more elegant than what I worked up. I like the idea of having different launchers for fighters and capital ships, but I would think all launchers would take up a gun slot; seems kind of funny ("Yeah, you got yer 12 gun mounts on this here destroyer, be we left ya enough hull space to fit in a few missile tubes..."). I guess it depends on the 'scale' of missile you're using, though - letting capital ships mount hundreds of Nova-style missiles isn't much of a problem, but if each missile did 80+ damage...

**

Feel free. Especially concidering that my own version will likely never be released.

Yeah. The missiles that would use this system wityh my quanitities would be pretty weak - they are the light missiles. I will have heavy missiles and torpedos, but some might be usable on larger ships only.
I have Viper Rockets and Optical Missiles coded already for the TC i wont finish or release. I may end up reworking "Guns" and "Turrets" to "Light weapon" and "Heavy weapon" slots, in which case i could make big launchers takea heavy weapon slot.
Not sure how i want to do it yet. I am definately making energy-based weapons a much worse deal than they are in nova (they will ALL pull fuel per shot, and there will be limits of what kinds one can have based on your ships "power grid".
-Az

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It is here. EVNEW Public Beta (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW(/url)
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(This message has been edited by Azratax2 (edited 01-18-2004).)

EDIT: Nevermind.

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The programmer's code of entomology: there's always another bug.
Windows users: stop asking for plugins. (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW/")Make one yourself.(/url)
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(This message has been edited by orcaloverbri9 (edited 01-18-2004).)

Quote

Originally posted by orcaloverbri9:
EDIT: Nevermind.

Dang. Now you've got me all curious an' such...

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(url="http://"http://s92592496.onlinehome.us/Files/EV_Nova/SecondaryCPL.zip")SecondaryCPL(/url), (url="http://"http://s92592496.onlinehome.us/Files/EV_Nova/MissileRacks.zip")MissileRacks(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by WarLocke:
Dang. Now you've got me all curious an' such...

I thought that the strings in the Info dialog couldn't be changed, and it turned out they could, is all.

------------------
The programmer's code of entomology: there's always another bug.
Windows users: stop asking for plugins. (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW/")Make one yourself.(/url)
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I suppose this is semi-relevant. Doesn't it seem a bit unrealistic that a Viper can hold something like 500 IR missles? And isn't it also odd that those 500 missles take up absolutely no space of any sort? To me it would be silly to make IR missles take up mass, if you look at the graphic for the launcher, the missles are stored inside the ship, not on the outer hull. Shouldn't missles of that sort take up cargo space instead?
I did a similar thing with fighter bays when I noticed that most of the bay is inside the ship, where cargo would be held.
I would post the plug-in, but I don't know how, and it's probably horribly corrupted by now having been edited many times, and it seems to have old information in it from other plug-ins. Quite a mess.

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Quote

Originally posted by Klepsacovic:
**I suppose this is semi-relevant. Doesn't it seem a bit unrealistic that a Viper can hold something like 500 IR missles? And isn't it also odd that those 500 missles take up absolutely no space of any sort? To me it would be silly to make IR missles take up mass, if you look at the graphic for the launcher, the missles are stored inside the ship, not on the outer hull. Shouldn't missles of that sort take up cargo space instead?
I did a similar thing with fighter bays when I noticed that most of the bay is inside the ship, where cargo would be held.
I would post the plug-in, but I don't know how, and it's probably horribly corrupted by now having been edited many times, and it seems to have old information in it from other plug-ins. Quite a mess.

**

I've really been trying not to do this...

But anyway, I agree totally with you, which is one of the things I'm doing with SS. Basically, mass and cargo space a totally interchangeable, and the design of a launcher does matter. For instance, external racks don't take any space (but still have weight), but have limited capacity and lower your armor rating. Internal racks take space and have weight, but are totally expandable via extra missile racks.

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~Charlie
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Quote

Originally posted by Masamune:
**and lower your armor rating.
**

I would think that they would raise your armor a bit. After all, that's one more thing in the way of enemy laser fire on its path through your head.
A similar idea I have concerns armor. If your think about it, if your hull was completely covered in armor, it would slightly increase the diameter of your ship, so you should be able to fit more stuff onto the outside of your ship. But ALL armor would decrease your speed and acceleration.

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Stop defending your rights, national security demands that they be taken away in order to be defended.
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Quote

Originally posted by Klepsacovic:
**I would think that they would raise your armor a bit. After all, that's one more thing in the way of enemy laser fire on its path through your head.
**

... And that one thing between your head and the enemy's laser fire happens to be, not one, but several explosive devices. That's like hiding from gunfire behind a stack of C4; if they shoot it, it'll explode and hurt you. A similar idea is represented by a missile rack decreasing armor, except you don't lose ammo everytime you get hit (And you don't die in a blazing inferno caused by your own missiles).

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Quote

Originally posted by Eugene Chin:
**That's like hiding from gunfire behind a stack of C4; if they shoot it, it'll explode and hurt you.

**

Yep. Exactly. Hiding behind explosives isnt a very good idea. Dont hide behind that tank of nitroglycerine*

C4 propably wouldnt explode from being hit by gunfire - it needs a sharp shockwave (such as from a detonating cap) to be set off. So do most of the big name explosives.
However, having the missile on the outside of your ship hit by a large missile or laser would propably do the trick (especially since those missiles have to have a detonation device built in somewhere)
-Az
*Unlike C4, nitroglycerine WOULD detonate if shot (it's rather unfriendly stuff).

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It is here. EVNEW Public Beta (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW(/url)
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