Quote
Originally posted by Bomb:
Hmm.. you know, thinking a bit about this has me wondering- dave- were there any unused ship graphics that you guys threw in the bucket for the game, but could release as a little graphics pack that people could use for expanders?
There sure are, and I'm already working on it. 
Dave @ ATMOS
Quote
Originally posted by Bomb:
**
Against: (...)
Limited gameplay
(...)
**
I seem to recall PacMan having limited gameplay, but I'd be hard-pressed to say it wasn't an excellent and addicting game.
I would say EV's simple storyline was the most effective of the three games, but my reasons definitely differ. First, its main themes were very easy to grasp and fun to adhere to. I don't think anyone thought of the Confederation as inherently good, for example--you'd play through the Confed missions when you felt like being evil. Likewise, the Rebel strings made you feel proud and richeous. These are themes not necessarily reflected in real life, at least not in such simple terms, but we can identify with them as multiple sides of ourselves. Especially when it comes to the aliens in EV, where they were purely malevolant and violent, representing whatever outside force is mysteriously, powerfully evil.
The key with EV's aliens is they were outsiders , I would say, more than anything else. That EVO's aliens were playable governments took the mystery out of them, and they lost their outsider status. There were a lot of sides to pull for out in the eastern galaxy, and I lost interest trying to decide whom I liked more. Needless to say, I found EVO a lot less engaging.
As for EVN, I have bare scratched the surface of the storylines. Something about its universe just didn't click for me, and I've merely been taking advantage of its engine enhancements. I didn't want to read all of the preambles, and the intorduction when you start a new pilot file seemed to lbe a primer for a slightly different universe than what it turned out to be. Not that it isn't well-written; it's simply not what I expected.
This brings me the issue with standing in the shadows of the original, and I have little new to say on it. The first game started it all, and you can't mess with that. Everything hereafter wil be expected to have the same magic as the original, yet it's a magic only the original can have. This is an undefeatable tradgedy, one which the ATMOS team has stood up to very confidently and successfully I might add, but undefeatable all the same.
As far as plots, simplicity, and introductions to universes are concerned, I would strongly suggest people play the Homeworld 2 demo (or heck, play the whole game). The opening animatic has perhaps a dozen lines of monologue, coupled with really beatiful imagery. Foreign names and ancient history are rattled off quickly, and yet completely without intimidation. In less than three minutes, when the movie is done, you're there , a part of the universe, completely sucked in. Without having played the first Homeworld, or even having played any similar game at all, you are completely mentally primed for the game to come. Not that there aren't any questions in your mind at the end of the intro, but they are such questions that demand you play the game to find the answers to, and the game clearly holds much promise to answer them all. I hate to pick a seemingly arbitrary example, but I would say Starcraft's presentation doesn't nearly deliver the same clarity, nor with the same precision, as EV, or Homeworld, or Marathon (whoo boy, might this open an off-topic can-of-worms), and EVO and EVN's presentation and structure remind me more of Starcraft than any of these three.
As far as writing a game scenario as a prequel to EV, you may find yourself using M. Burch's few lines of text on his galaxy's history as your own preamble, unedited, in order to retain the same spunky feel. If you want a good response from your audience, it might be best not to fight the urge to change anything. It's going to be hard thereafter to create missions and plot lines which people will play without protest, as we have all had plenty of time to ruminate on the workings of a pre-Rebel/Confed EV, whether consciously or not.
Also, make it awesome so we have more awesome plugs for EVN 
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(url="http://"http://mailto:mk381@stu.aii.edu") - () () / }{ - (/url)
(url="http://"http://www.pacifier.com/~kkey/shipyard/index.html")Onyx's EV Shipyard(/url)
Each of the three games has a lot of strong points, and in my opinion, very few negative points. When I first played Escape Velocity, it was like no gaming experience I had ever had. I was quite young when I first played it, and so it put a bigger impression on me than EVO and EVN.
For me, EV is like home. I know almost every system and planet like the back of my hand. I have spent more time playing EV than the others, so each system has rich memories imbedded in it. The same goes with every ship. Like Onyx pointed out, it was fun being righteous with the Rebels, and it was fun being evil with the Confederates. Everything was black and white. Pirates singled you out and attacked you on sight. It felt like an adventure.
EVO was much different. It was mysterious. You were thrown into a galaxy with almost no knowledge. It was hard to make money at first, and it was dangerous to travel. What I love most about EVO is the fact that there is so much to explore and find. It must have been a few weeks before I discovered the Emalghans. The war in the Crescent was fun because after spending so much time with dreary UE and Vonian ships, everything was colorful, fast, and powerful. The graphics weren't as good as EV in my opinion, but once you get used to a game's or plug-in's graphics, it's not a big deal. There was a lot of contrast in EVO, but it began to go a little gray compared to EV's black-and-white. It didn't feel as much like a flowing adventure to me, partly because it could be very hard to get all of the missions I wanted.
I knew about EVN long before it came out, and was looking forward to it more than any game aside from Ares (I pre-ordered it from Changling years ago for my birthday and didn't get for like 3 years). Often when people do this, they get let down. I haven't been felt let down by Nova at all. One of the most impressive things about Nova compared to the other two is the battles. I wish I had Snapz so that I could record some of the incredible battles I've seen, mostly between Aurorans and Federation ships. Graphically, Nova blows the other two away, although I prefer the more conventional styles from EV. The storylines are good, although it's only in the Auroran String that I really feel a part of something bigger. In the other ones (especially the Polaron one), I feel like the character; everyone looks at me with awe and I just want someone I can talk to like a person. Maybe I'm just a better player than before, but money is really easy to make in Nova. This has its pluses and minuses. In EV and EVO, it took a while to make money, and so I would go through a lot of ships in one pilot. In Nova, there are a few ships that stand out far above the rest, and it makes sense to save money for them since you can get the money so quickly. That extra money does come in very handy for expensive Sigma upgrades, though. My final point against Nova is that there is no effective way to use fighters, excluding perhaps the Manta. I've played Nova recently and have not played EV or EVO recently, so that's why I have some negative points for Nova. It's still an awesome game.
If you read this far, congratulations. These are my abridged thoughts about the 3 EV games. Please tell me if something doesn't make sense.
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Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun every year.
(url="http://"http://www.evula.com/")EVula.com(/url)|(url="http://"http://www.evula.net/")EVula.net(/url)|(url="http://"http://www.evula.org/")EVula.org(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by Luck:
**I'm in what I think is the smallest of the three camps, as I prefer EVO above it's two siblings. I'm a sucker for the "Terrans winning against long odds" story. If I could create in interactive (you know, computer game) form one episode from science fiction, it would be the arrival of the Hyperdrive Armada in the Wunderland system from the Known Space books. The notion a peaceful humanity getting pounced on by a superior and brutal attacker, barely fighting to a draw while we get our stuff together, and then returning the favor in spades is a story that will be told in one form or another as long as there are people.
**
I'm the complete reverse, that storyline seems deeply boring to me. I mean, just knowing your enemies doesn't make for good suspense or storytelling. To have the good always be righteous and the bad always evil removes the possibility of any character study. I love the type of storyline where all the characters are human, and sure, you side with one side over the other, but they both make mistakes. Where neither is completely good or completely evil. That's just so much more interesting to me. So on that standard EVN is extremely cool, as it's the first really interesting one in terms of plot (not to mention graphics, sounds, etc.)
But there's definitely something to be said for the minimalism of EV. Not to mention that I really dislike the constant bs explaining space opera's seem obsessed with doing. Honestly, I don't really care what made up reason there is for a hyper space jump, and I'd say 99.9% of people don't care either. It's a lot better to just say that, and let the people fill in their own details, or not, it really doesn't matter. So, using that principle, it doesn't really matter how the universe came to be like however the plot requires, it's fiction anyway. So yeah, EV's attitude of sort of hinting at it, but not spelling out a huge backstory was just plain cool.
My odd, disjonted 2˘
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(url="http://"http://bbspot.com/News/2001/03/perl_test.html")Test Shows 99.99% of High School Seniors Can't Read Perl(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by Luck:
**I'm in what I think is the smallest of the three camps, as I prefer EVO above it's two siblings.
**
As do I. Why? Well, I have a few reasons:
I never liked how the Rebels couldn't conquer the Confederates. When I started thinking about plug development for EVC, I could have sworn I saw a VisBit field in the s˙st resource...if I'm not hallucinating, WHY THE HELL WAS IT NOT USED? Also, the Rebel plotline consisits of destroying an alien. Maybe I'm just too obsessed with blowing the living crap out of every Confed in site, but I wish that there could have been some string defeating a powerful Confed ship or fleet (I know about the Tractor Beam string; it is not what I was looking for).
I cheated on EVC (i.e. I fiddled with the Data File...), and Nova is currently unregistered for me, but, having never screwed with EVO, I just feel that it's all I have left. I don't know why, but I just feel...I dunno, more at home there. When I'm killing a Confed Cruiser, i think "oh, whoop-de-doo, another one bites the dust...", but when I'm fighting with a Voinian Cruiser, I get this odd sense of accomplishment. In EVN, I'm a bystander with no fuel in a desolate system with no refueling places, no ships to take fuel from (in fact, there's only Cap'n Hector, bent on my death, and some disabled ship...) who has to start over but always felt like a visitor anyway...
It has more plug development promise than EVC, and EVN's just too damn complicated for me. There was this plug-in I started planning last year, and I'm FINALLY getting around to making it (pity I was too stupid to do it over the summer...), now that I see that I can easily make it now. What's the plug-in? You'll find out when I make the sub-website (sub because it's just a branch of my site that I have absolutely EVERYTHING on). I have found it easy to allow either side to have complete victory over the other, without using planet weapons in Nova, which take the fun out of deploying marines and reading detailed dëscs about their success.
NOTE: None of this was meant to insult EVC or EVN. EVC will always have that classic, better-than-the-sequels (reminds me of Disney movies...) feeling, and EVN is by far the most stunning, engrossing, mindblowing (my GOD how I sound like a critic...), advanced-featured of them all.
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The programmer's code of etemology: "There's always another bug."
(Etemology is defined as the study of insects.) (Or was it just bugs in general?)
Quote
Originally posted by orcaloverbri9:
**... but when I'm fighting with a Voinian Cruiser, I get this odd sense of accomplishment. ...
**
Your right about that. The Vionian Cruiser was one bad mother ...
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Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
Quote
Originally posted by diddlysquat:
I'm the complete reverse, that storyline seems deeply boring to me. I mean, just knowing your enemies doesn't make for good suspense or storytelling. To have the good always be righteous and the bad always evil removes the possibility of any character study. I love the type of storyline where all the characters are human, and sure, you side with one side over the other, but they both make mistakes.
Ah, but that's the greatness of the story. It can start as the heroic Humans vs. the Slime Monsters from Outer Space, but it doesn't have to stay there. The deeper you go, the deeper you find you have to go.
When does a character ever come into a situation where he/she has no preconcieved opinions about the sides in a conflict?
(This is the biggest thing that bothers me about the Nova plot. The character is from the Federation, right? Why then is it so easy for him/her to go work for the Aurorans? Should it not represent a major turning point, a major burning of bridges? Wouldn't your parents be ashamed of having an Auroran traitor as a son/daughter? (Not trying to make you justify your creation or anything, Dave. It's just something that bothers me.))
(Just to say it... I'm not choosing fiction examples because I'm a huge dork and don't know any history. In my experience, no matter how carefully you choose a historical example you will piss someone off, so I'll just avoid that.)
Like the Known Space books... at first glance it looks like good humans vs. bad kzin. Then you learn that the "peacefulness" of humanity is enforced by a pseudo-secret police that can "remove" any one at any time. You learn that the "war-like" kzin are an ancient, honorable people.
Some people like clean cut, good wins over evil. Some people like shades of gray. A truly timeless story appeals to both.
Am I preaching? I don't mean to preach. Just my thoughts.
Peace,
Luck
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I like EVC and EVN waaay more then EVO. EVC is party nosalgic for me, plus you get to use you imagination... A lot. I don't think people who like clear and defined rules would like EVC very much due to not a whole lot was explained... (Just my opinion, I'm probably wrong) I enjoyed creating my own galaxy in my head as I played... I enjoyed firing my first missle from my Scoutship, I enjoyed killing that first Confed Cruiser...
EVO had none of that for me. EVO seemed to be a half-game, not much was left to imagine and what little there was seemed kind of dull to me. No new stuff to the enigine that was ever used or that meant anything. It felt sort of patched-together. EVO had a solid set of rules, and the worst part was where it said "You have finished this part of EVO. Thanks for playing." Just so cheesy, and totally threw me out of the "gaming" mood. I was enjoying myself until that point, but once I hit the end... It ended. No point in doing it again. No point in doing anything else. I ended up never registering EVO and removing all trace of it, good riddance IMO.
EVN... I waited exitedly for years. In this case, I didn't expect it to be like EVC, and got what I expected. A good, solid game that didn't feel like it would untagle itself and fall apart, and a lot of background information. The background info was kind of cool, and while I would of liked to be able to make it up myself EVC-style, the Preambles were well-done and an enjoyable read. The gameplay was incredible, graphically stunning and many things were incredible to play with enigine-wise. Missions where you can decide multiple choices, get them from anywhere...
In short, EVC was a nostalgic game which looked and felt like a great sharware product that was infinitely replayable. EVO was a game that was falling apart at the seams, and EVN felt like more of an off-the-shelf store bought product(that's a good thing :)) with great gameplay.
Anyhow, that's my opinion. I know a lot of eople like EVO, and I don't mean to piss them off too much... I just have never understood what anyone saw in that game. (And I hope this post makes any sense at all :p)
-Dash
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I'd do almost anything to keep myself alive--exept kill myself.
(This message has been edited by dashriprock (edited 09-18-2003).)
Quote
Originally posted by dashriprock:
**... the worst part was where it said "You have finished this part of EVO. Thanks for playing." Just so cheesy, and totally threw me out of the "gaming" mood.
**
I think this was done because people kept b!7ching about not knowing when a mission string was really over and they didn't like wasting time flying around and landing just to find more missions.
(quote)Originally posted by dashriprock:
**... I know a lot of eople like EVO, and I don't mean to piss them off too much... I just have never understood what anyone saw in that game. (And I hope this post makes any sense at all;)
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Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
**
Quote
Originally posted by dashriprock:
**No new stuff to the enigine that was ever used or that meant anything.
**
Nothing could be more untrue. Tell me, are you allowed to land on a planet in EVC and take it over? Also, it is , in fact, possible, to make missions appear from more places in v1.0.2—Ambrosia talks about how they are upset (best word I could come up with) that hardly anyone has taken advantage of these cool features (although I plan to ;)).
And I don't see anything "patched-together" about it. It is a nice, complete game, and obviously, Matt and Peter didn't feel a need to make any external (i.e. the interface) changes. In fact, I'm willing to bet they intentionally did not take that step; perhaps they were not quite ready, or maybe they were being pressured by hype.
Also, I personally don't mind the "Congrats! You have done this string." messages...except for the fact that it pissed me off i couldn't conquer the Voinians completely.
You want to see slapped-together work? Take a look at Reign of the UE. Tons of errors in that plug-in; I'm getting sick of playing it. The Miranu, Emalgha, Igadzra, Zidagar, AND Azdgari working for the UE government? Yeah, and Barney had a shotgun. The "Attack Group" STR#s feature smiley icons, and once I saw (error) instead of a string.
Then again, that makes it a good example of someone who doesn't support their work, and a good example of how a plug-in should NOT look...
Again, just my thoughts.
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The programmer's code of etemology: "There's always another bug."
(Etemology is defined as the study of insects.) (Or was it just bugs in general?)
Quote
Originally posted by orcaloverbri9:
Nothing could be more untrue. Tell me, are you allowed to land on a planet in EVC and take it over?
You mean domination? I'm pretty sure that was possible in EVC. I remember hordes of Confed cruisers/frigates chasing me round Sol for hours before I got bored. Ultimate respect to anyone who took over Earth, but also one question - don't you have better things to do with your lives ;^)
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(url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/jonathanboyd/evn/index.html")Classic4Nova plug-in(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by Jonathan Boyd:
**You mean domination? I'm pretty sure that was possible in EVC. I remember hordes of Confed cruisers/frigates chasing me round Sol for hours before I got bored. Ultimate respect to anyone who took over Earth, but also one question - don't you have better things to do with your lives ;^)
**
No, not domination. I am well aware this was possible. i mean taking a mission to go to suchandsuch stellar and capture it for the UE government (e.g. the "Attack Romit" mission).
------------------
The programmer's code of etemology: "There's always another bug."
(Etemology is defined as the study of insects.) (Or was it just bugs in general?)
Quote
Originally posted by orcaloverbri9:
No, not domination. I am well aware this was possible. i mean taking a mission to go to suchandsuch stellar and capture it for the UE government (e.g. the "Attack Romit" mission).
That's just done using VisBits, which were present in Escape Velocity - the original scenario didn't make use of them, but many plug-ins did. In fact, when EV Override first was released, many people complained that it didn't make enough use of VisBits compared to many of the other scenarios they had already seen.
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David Arthur | (url="http://"http://davidarthur.evula.net/")davidarthur.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/")EV-Nova.net(/url)
The people united can never be ignited!
Quote
Originally posted by dashriprock:
...and the worst part was where it said "You have finished this part of EVO. Thanks for playing." Just so cheesy, and totally threw me out of the "gaming" mood. I was enjoying myself until that point, but once I hit the end... It ended. No point in doing it again. No point in doing anything else.
I totally forgot about that and I agree 100%. It took me from 1st person to Choose Yor Own Adventure 2nd person. If I recall correctly, the same is true of how some of the mission text was structured ("Do you decide to accept his offer? Yes/No").
Things like that derailed my involvement in the game. You know, I think more than anything, that's what made me dislike EVO over EVC. I could put up with the dodgy map and how easy it was to find the Miranu (if I could do it, why hadn't the UE found them?). It was the "Congratualtions" message that put me over the edge. I stopped playing missions at that point and switched to 100% tinkering. Personally, I like not knowing when a mission string is over. Afterall, in life, no one comes up to you and says, "Congratulations. With the purchase of that hotdog you have complete your purpose. Feel free to continue to walk around and live, but you're done as far as we're concerned."
About EVC and the never ending battles between Rebels and Confeds: I found that aspect of the game annoying. That's what made me start to look and see just how adaptive the engine would allow one to make a universe.
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Mac<-->PC pilot file Conversions: (url="http://"http://phair.csh.rit.edu/~seant/EV/PilotConvert/")http://phair.csh.rit...V/PilotConvert/(/url)
"Create enigmas, not explanations." -Robert Smithson
Quote
Originally posted by Onyx:
I would say EV's simple storyline was the most effective of the three games, but my reasons definitely differ. First, its main themes were very easy to grasp and fun to adhere to. I don't think anyone thought of the Confederation as inherently good, for example--you'd play through the Confed missions when you felt like being evil. Likewise, the Rebel strings made you feel proud and richeous. These are themes not necessarily reflected in real life, at least not in such simple terms, but we can identify with them as multiple sides of ourselves. Especially when it comes to the aliens in EV, where they were purely malevolant and violent, representing whatever outside force is mysteriously, powerfully evil.
On the contrary, EV's ambiguity stemmed from the fact that there was no clear cut distinction between the morals of each government. Unlike Override, which made it abundantly clear that the Vionians were imperialistic evildoers, the Confederation was never made out to be malevolent or bad. In fact, the only mention of its alleged sins is dubious, and the source of the claims (the Rebellion) is highly unreliable. Never in either mission string is the Confederation recorded as being cruel, imperialistic, or evil, all qualities associated with malevolence. In fact, I would argue that the Confederation is intrinsically moral. In many ways, it mirrors America. Both are republics (note that the Confederation has an elected Senate, and separation of powers is hinted at), and both are fallible. Like America, the Confederation has obviously made some mistakes and propagated some injustices over its lifetime. However, that does not make it bad. Those individuals who ordered the injustices are the malevolent ones, and the republic has effective methods of legal redress, to punish the wrongdoers. In any case, the case the frame the republican Confederation as an evil government is fatally flawed, and seeks to punish the system, rather than the individual. Such thinking is collectivist in nature, and naturally unjust. I could go on and on. For example: the Artemis Group, in addition to several other factors, conspire to give the Confederation an incorrect image.
In any case, let me reiterate that it was EV's ambiguity that made it such as excellent game. Instead of being explicitly told about the morality and politics of each faction (like in Override), the player is allowed to examine the facts for himself, and then render judgment by his own moral code. It enables the player to exercise his imagination, rather than being mindlessly told how to think of the universe. When I played the Confederation string, I did not feel like was being malevolent and committing injustice, I felt like I was defending a besieged, and righteous, power from the attacks of fanatical insurgents. When I was playing the Rebel string, I felt like I was participating in a Machiavellian plot to overthrow a republican government and install an autocratic dictatorship with myself in a position of significant power. I felt like a terrorist - at least somewhat like a terrorist. 
In addition, I find EV to be much more realistic than Override. The factions have deep moral complexity - the game recognizes the natural human characteristic of fallibility. It shows shades of grey - whereas Override shows only black and white. I digress - I could go on for a while, but as I gave up the supreme addiction of Just Chat, I simply do not have the time.
Oh, and I like Nova a lot as well. I find the storyline of Nova to be very immersive, and supremely interesting. I'd have to rate the EV games in the following order: EV:N, then EV, then EV:O. I enjoyed playing all of them, and they were all top flight games.
- Joshua
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Formerly General Rak
(url="http://"http://www.independentthinker.org") The Independent Thinker(/url) -- Fresh, insightful, political commentary!
(This message has been edited by Joshua Harris (edited 09-21-2003).)
I really don't have much of an opinion, but I've played the Port Authority version of EVC and I've played Nova, so I'll ramble anyway.
Personally, I like EV:N lots better then EV. I am the gamer who would buy Unreal Tourney every year, just because it was bigger and badder. I love the tons of expansion availible through plugs for EV:N and the graphics are so crisp to make me drool.
I also prefer the tons of text, like bomb (I believe) said. It makes the game more engaging to me. I especially liked the battles when you are landed, and can't fight with your ship. If you haven't guessed by now, I'm an avid sci-fi/fic reader, and the Nova Storyline was easy to identify with. Probably because of my indoctrination by the aliens that took Elvis. 
Anyway, thanks to Pipeline for a great start.
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T the omnipotent went where no mortal had gone before. Now he comes back to make sure none do again.
"The First Representative for the Vell-os turns back to the doors and they suddenly, without warning, explode outwards causing everybody to flinch. The Vell-os representatives file out unopposed."
-EV:N Preamble
Quote
Originally posed by David Arthur:
That's just done using VisBits, which were present in Escape Velocity - the original scenario didn't make use of them, but many plug-ins did. In fact, when EV Override first was released, many people complained that it didn't make enough use of VisBits compared to many of the other scenarios they had already seen.
I know how it's done. First, read one of my previous posts:
Quote
Originally posted by me:
I never liked how the Rebels couldn't conquer the Confederates. When I started thinking about plug development for EVC, I could have sworn I saw a VisBit field in the s˙st resource...if I'm not hallucinating, WHY THE HELL WAS IT NOT USED?
Also, I was referring to it as a user would - I didn't like how it wasn't used in EVC's default scenario.
Quote
Originally posted by Joshua Harris:
**On the contrary, EV's ambiguity stemmed from the fact that there was no clear cut distinction between the morals of each government. Unlike Override, which made it abundantly clear that the Vionians were imperialistic evildoers, the Confederation was never made out to be malevolent or bad. In fact, the only mention of its alleged sins is dubious, and the source of the claims (the Rebellion) is highly unreliable. Never in either mission string is the Confederation recorded as being cruel, imperialistic, or evil, all qualities associated with malevolence. In fact, I would argue that the Confederation is intrinsically moral. In many ways, it mirrors America. Both are republics (note that the Confederation has an elected Senate, and separation of powers is hinted at), and both are fallible. Like America, the Confederation has obviously made some mistakes and propagated some injustices over its lifetime. However, that does not make it bad. Those individuals who ordered the injustices are the malevolent ones, and the republic has effective methods of legal redress, to punish the wrongdoers. In any case, the case the frame the republican Confederation as an evil government is fatally flawed, and seeks to punish the system, rather than the individual. Such thinking is collectivist in nature, and naturally unjust. I could go on and on. For example: the Artemis Group, in addition to several other factors, conspire to give the Confederation an incorrect image.
In any case, let me reiterate that it was EV's ambiguity that made it such as excellent game. Instead of being explicitly told about the morality and politics of each faction (like in Override), the player is allowed to examine the facts for himself, and then render judgment by his own moral code. It enables the player to exercise his imagination, rather than being mindlessly told how to think of the universe. When I played the Confederation string, I did not feel like was being malevolent and committing injustice, I felt like I was defending a besieged, and righteous, power from the attacks of fanatical insurgents. When I was playing the Rebel string, I felt like I was participating in a Machiavellian plot to overthrow a republican government and install an autocratic dictatorship with myself in a position of significant power. I felt like a terrorist - at least somewhat like a terrorist.
In addition, I find EV to be much more realistic than Override. The factions have deep moral complexity - the game recognizes the natural human characteristic of fallibility. It shows shades of grey - whereas Override shows only black and white. I digress - I could go on for a while, but as I gave up the supreme addiction of Just Chat, I simply do not have the time.
Oh, and I like Nova a lot as well. I find the storyline of Nova to be very immersive, and supremely interesting. I'd have to rate the EV games in the following order: EV:N, then EV, then EV:O. I enjoyed playing all of them, and they were all top flight games.**
Pardon? Have you totally forgotten what the intro text said? Let's see: they went in, stealing their resources, putting them into forced labor...if that isn't evil, then Barney had a shotgun. Rebels, terrorists? They're PROTECTING THEMSELVES FROM THE CONFEDERATES! It's ovious you have not played the game for a LONG time. There are no alleged sins (switching back to Confeds now) - they are all real. They are evil and greedy.
Oh, wait, if you ALWAYS felt that way, you must have not read the intro text at all...it would be best to be sure that your opinion is not contradicted anywhere in the game not from an enemy's perpective before sharing it with others who could contradict you, as this is more embarassing (by the way, I didn't say it was, I said it was MORE...)
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The programmer's code of etemology: "There's always another bug."
(Etemology is defined as the study of insects.) (Or was it just bugs in general?)
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Escape Velocity Introduction Text:
But the elite and powerful members of the Confederation were reluctant to give up their power after the end of the War, and began a rule of oppression and tyranny, aided by the powerful Confederation Navy.
(...)
This reign of terror lasted for fifteen years
(...)
formed an organized rebellion aimed at destroying their oppressors. In time, their pitiful forces grew, with the help of sympathetic corporations, into a formidable navy.
The galactic civil war still rages on, and no end is in sight.
1. Examine the first sentence. It specifically mentioned that not the Confederation, but the elite and powerful members were behind the oppression. As I specifically stated earlier, a just system of democracy and republicanism should not be blamed for the actions of its rulers. Those individuals in command themselves should be blamed. In fact, it is likely that they are no longer even alive. With the corrupt individuals gone, the Confederation is no longer being used as a force of oppression. The Confederation, at the present time, is a successful republic that has created wealth through capitalist practices. Those who committed the injustices are no longer in power, and the system has returned to being a force of good. Would you suggest that the US be invaded and eliminated because Mr. Grant was a corrupt President? Of course not, because the free and fair system of republicanism compensated for his injustices with better Presidents.
Also note that, according to your sacred text, the oppression lasted fifteen years, and it logically follows that it does not continue to this day.
2. The Rebels are terrorists.
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From Sherlock:
Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
The Rebel cause illegally used force to compel and coerce the Confederation into submitting to rule by the Rebellion. Observe that the Rebellion destroys civilian freighter traffic devoid of military significance, a common terrorist tactic, while the Confederation does not.
3. Protecting themselves from the Confederation? That's laughable. Read your sacred introductory text: the Rebellion was formed with the express purpose of annexing the Confederation and destroying it. They didn't merely want freedom from the oppression of certain powerful individuals (like perhaps a colonial America did), they wanted to eliminate a sovereign polity, and deny the inner colonies to freedom to decide what kind of government they want. The Rebels seek power - the power to impose themselves over others.
4. Now, you tell me, how do we know this source is even accurate at all? It does not present an objective view of the situation (check the amount of coverage for each side, and the language employed), and is biased in favor of the Rebellion. We do not know who wrote it, or what their agenda is. Remember, be skeptical. Look at the facts for yourself, do not take the word of the author of a partisan document with an agenda.
5. Evil is a relative term. Or do you believe in moral absolutism, in which case I will destroy that concept as well.
6. Finally, let me note a small but significant part of the text: "with the help of sympathetic corporations". This raises a massive red flag - corporations do not act out of benevolence, they act out of motivation for profit. The only reason a corporation would help the Rebels is if it sees an advantage in it. Referring to the Artemis thread, I think it is quite clear that galactic corporations support the Rebels not because their cause is just, but because they want the war to continue. They are not interested in peace, and justice, they want a political climate which is viable for the sale of their merchandise. Judging from the text, it is probable that the Rebellion would be a mere shadow of itself if it wasn't supporting by war mongering companies. Of course, a just cause, being just, would intrinsically gather significant support over such a long period of time, and easily crush an unjust power. But then again, the Confederation is not an autocratic regime - it bring prosperity its citizens, and is inherently benevolent, a system that more often than not prevents dictators and powerful citizens from taking power.
7. Ever notice the disparity in the designs of various ships from both the Rebellion and Confederation. Where the Confederation's ships are geared towards defending their holdings, and make poor assault ships, Rebel vessels are designed to attack. They make sub-par defense vessels. If the Rebellion simply wanted to exist in peace, would they not concentrate on defense, rather than exterminating the Confederation? And if the Confederation really wanted to annex the Rebellion's holdings, wouldn't they actually build some a-class assault vessels (and believe me, from the quality of Confederate designs, they certainly could)?
For more arguments concerning this subject, please refer to posts by Henry Yang (who was integral in shaping my philosophical views), and David Arthur. I believe there is a thread in the EV archives that discusses this very issue.
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Formerly General Rak
(url="http://"http://www.independentthinker.org") The Independent Thinker(/url) -- Fresh, insightful, political commentary!
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Evil is a relative term. Or do you believe in moral absolutism, in which case I will destroy that concept as well.
Ahh...subjectivism. An unfortunate side effect of our pluralistic culture. If 'evil' really is relative, than how can it exist? Everything is 'morally wrong or bad, immoral or wicked' to either some people or others. So either everything is evil, or nothing is evil. A dictator could order the liquidation of millions, and if it didn't impunge upon his conscience, his act of genocide wouldn't be 'evil'...after all, if there are no absolutes, then the task of deciding what is 'right' or 'wrong' falls into the hands of the individual, and certain individuals might decide that course of actions to not be 'wrong'.
I forgot to mention that (I believe) there is an explicit reference to slavery in EVC. The Rebellion's tactics aren't exactly those that inspire sympathy to an uninformed observer, no matter how effective they may prove. However, EVN did do a much better job maligning its 'evil faction' (in this case the Bureau (NOT the Federation)).
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(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ue_rd")Fatal Alliance- an upcoming quasi-TC for EVN.(/url)
Secret Project: In intermediate planning stages. (No links available)
(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 09-21-2003).)
