Meh. People can click on an extra link for now, as I don't have much of an inclination to fix it.

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"Moronic User Error. Details:If I had hands I would slap you silly."
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I'm not sure how it is possible to miss the "Add-ons" button, given as how the user's mouse has to go over it to get to the "Webboard" button. The "Seach" feature on the webboards is going to need a much bigger button though.

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"If you can't feel the Force, you're not pushing it." -Prof. Li on the "Force"
Got g?

Quote

Originally Posted by what_is_the_matrix:
...he was most definitely cheating when he was playing...

Actually, he might not have, I've gotten over 1 billion dollars doing the Gefjon run(took only an hour or so), no plug-ins or cheats. And yes, some would argue that the Gefjon run is cheat, but Ambrosia hasn't 'fixed' it yet, so I think that means it's not a cheat

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I like long walks, especially those taken by people who annoy me.

Quote

Originally posted by Chuckles:
**I'm not sure how it is possible to miss the "Add-ons" button, given as how the user's mouse has to go over it to get to the "Webboard" button. The "Seach" feature on the webboards is going to need a much bigger button though.

**

Speaking of add-ons, how are we going to deal with PC versions of plug-ins? They're essentially the same thing, just in a different format. The ideal format, I feel, for the user-end (but perhaps the most difficult to implement) would be to allow entries to have two files linked to them -- one for each file format. Something easier might be to have a separate add-ons section for PC. Or we can just do nothing and see what happens.

Oh well...we could always make plug developers make their plug-ins in .bin.zip.bin format...

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Mike Lee (Firebird)
Visit Cymltaneous Solutions: (url="http://"http://cs.paching.com/")http://cs.paching.com/(/url)
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As far as I know, there's going to be a drag-and-drop application for converting Mac plugins to PC plugins which will be bundled with PC Nova. So everyone downloads the same plugins, but if you're playing on a PC you do a quick conversion before you start.

There are details on the Progress Log about this I think.

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(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/newkongindustries/")New Kong Industries (/url)

PC users will be using the plugs in .bin form, just unstuffing from .sit. Mac users will be able to just unstuff it totally and use it like a normal plugin. Developers will just need to remember to make the file that is downloaded a .bin.sit file. At least that seems to be what I've heard. I'm pretty sure that PC users won't need a drag&drop; utility.

MickyBIs

(Edit)

Quote

Originally Posted by burgerbill in the EVN:PC progress log
**Here is the procedure for archiving plug-ins for EV Nova so that the PC version and the Mac version can use the same archive.
Use DropZip from Aladdin Systems.

In preferences, make sure in the option "MacBinary" you check the box "Smart" or "Always". Do NOT .zip your plug-ins with the option "Never". I will be sad. EV Nova will be sad. And you will be sad since your file will not work on the PC version.

Save your files in the .zip archive as usual.

Now on the PC version, you can use ANY .zip utility to decompress. You will notice that all files (Most of them anyways) will end with .bin appened to the filename. This is normal. Nothing to be alarmed about. EV Nova on the PC will read MacBinary encoded files and do the magic to use the data as is. Please, do NOT remove the .bin extension. EV Nova PC will hate you.

Then put the files in the proper folders (Plug ins) and run EV Nova.exe and the plug ins will install just like the mac version. You don't need to much else.**

Check the progress log before spreading the unconfirmed...PLEASE!
(/Edit)

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(This message has been edited by MickyBIs (edited 11-20-2002).)

So if I uploaded it as .sit.hqx, incompetent PC users(the smart ones may use it) couldn't do much with it(besides waste their time)?

------------------
"Moronic User Error. Details:If I had hands I would slap you silly."
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Quote

Originally posted by MickyBIs:
**PC users will be using the plugs in .bin form, just unstuffing from .sit. Mac users will be able to just unstuff it totally and use it like a normal plugin. Developers will just need to remember to make the file that is downloaded a .bin.sit file. At least that seems to be what I've heard. I'm pretty sure that PC users won't need a drag &drop; utility.

**

Whoops, should've went back and read that through again before asking my question. But now that I have reread it, it's clearer to me:

Basically, burgerbill is saying to save as .bin.zip. The procedure he describes involves using DropZip to create a ZIP archive, but with MacBinary encoding first to preserve resource forks. I figure, however, that .bin.sit will also work, provided the PC user downloads StuffIt Expander for Windows (which I have, but which many PC users will probably never have heard of...and it's better than zip in a lot of cases too).

However, the reason I said .bin.sit.bin or .bin.zip.bin (or replace the last .bin with .hqx) is because we're supposed to upload files with some type of encoding over the StuffIt archive...but considering nowadays, I don't think there's a problem with downloading .sit or .zip files on any platform, it's probably okay to leave it as .bin.sit or .bin.zip.

Phew, that was much wordier than it needed to be, I hope I got whatever I was trying to say across.

------------------
Mike Lee (Firebird)
Visit Cymltaneous Solutions: (url="http://"http://cs.paching.com/")http://cs.paching.com/(/url)
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Quote

Originally posted by Admiral Benden:
**So if I uploaded it as .sit.hqx, incompetent PC users(the smart ones may use it) couldn't do much with it(besides waste their time)?

**

Actually, I think stuffit can decode .hqx files.

However, there probably is some way to keep PC users (or at least ones without Basilisk II ;)) from using it. But why does it matter to you? I don't think that it damages something if idiots use it. Idiots use everything.

------------------
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Quote

Originally posted by Firebird:
Basically, burgerbill is saying to save as .bin.zip. The procedure he describes involves using DropZip to create a ZIP archive, but with MacBinary encoding first to preserve resource forks. I figure, however, that .bin.sit will also work, provided the PC user downloads StuffIt Expander for Windows

Can't StuffIt Expander for Windows automatically MacBinary-encode the contents of a .sit file when it is decompressed on Windows? I belive it can, although I haven't used it in a while. So, anything that works on a Macintosh should work on Windows if you use StuffIt Expander.

Quote

Originally posted by Firebird:
... we're supposed to upload files with some type of encoding over the StuffIt archive...

That's actually outdated - I believe additional encoding has been unnecessary since StuffIt 5.

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David Arthur @ (url="http://"http://davidarthur.evula.net/")davidarthur.evula.net(/url)
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Quote

Originally posted by Sheer_falacy:
**However, there probably is some way to keep PC users (or at least ones without Basilisk II ) from using it. But why does it matter to you? I don't think that it damages something if idiots use it. Idiots use everything.

**

Well, if you hate PC users that much, then, though it's probably too difficult to fix my PowerMac, if you can figure out a way to make things not work on PC, including Basilisk II users, I'll just have to download stuff to my Mac LC III, unstuff it, pop in a disk, transfer it to Basilisk II on my PC, transfer from there to my hard drive, and then I'll be able to use it.

Quote

Originally posted by David Arthur:
**Can't StuffIt Expander for Windows automatically MacBinary-encode the contents of a .sit file when it is decompressed on Windows? I belive it can, although I haven't used it in a while. So, anything that works on a Macintosh should work on Windows if you use StuffIt Expander.

**

Well, I had an old version of StuffIt Expander for Windows, and all it did was unstuff files. I'm downloading the version 8 beta right now to check that out.

Quote

Originally posted by David Arthur:
**That's actually outdated - I believe additional encoding has been unnecessary since StuffIt 5.

**

Yeah, that's what I figured, as I've been noticing how recent files have skipped that encoding requirement. Files that I've uploaded still have it though, as since my Mac died (and since before that anyway), I never upgraded my version of StuffIt Deluxe, so I couldn't stuff files in StuffIt 5 format.

But anyway, I'll see if I can't figure out whether the latest version of StuffIt Expander for Windows will expand files into a MacBinary archive.

If not, Java does offer some tools that might make this a relatively simple project. It comes built-in with a package for dealing with zip files (java.util.zip), and I found a free, open-source library out there that deals with MacBinary files (should be useful if anyone wants to make a Windows version plug-in editor).

(Edit) As far as I could tell, the latest version doesn't have any provisions for unstuffing something directly into a MacBinary-encoded file. I think that might be a project I could undertake in Java, it probably wouldn't be that hard to do, even with my rudimentary abilities. (/Edit)

------------------
Mike Lee (Firebird)
Visit Cymltaneous Solutions: (url="http://"http://cs.paching.com/")http://cs.paching.com/(/url)
(hosted by (url="http://"http://www.evula.org")evula.org(/url))

(This message has been edited by Firebird (edited 11-22-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by Firebird:
**Yeah, that's what I figured, as I've been noticing how recent files have skipped that encoding requirement. Files that I've uploaded still have it though, as since my Mac died (and since before that anyway), I never upgraded my version of StuffIt Deluxe, so I couldn't stuff files in StuffIt 5 format.

But anyway, I'll see if I can't figure out whether the latest version of StuffIt Expander for Windows will expand files into a MacBinary archive.

If not, Java does offer some tools that might make this a relatively simple project. It comes built-in with a package for dealing with zip files (java.util.zip), and I found a free, open-source library out there that deals with MacBinary files (should be useful if anyone wants to make a Windows version plug-in editor).

**

I'm actually trying to do this...

What package did you find to deal with MacBinary files? I found two. I also found something that can decode PICTs, which is rather useful. Then I put it together, and added in something that can view it using TMPLs.

At this point, it can read a MacBinary. If you have the TMPL, and it doesn't use ZCNT, OCNT, or LSTC (which, sadly, excludes #STR but not TMPL), it shows it. It also displays uncompressed PICTS. Whenever you open a file with TMPLs in it, it adds those and remembers them. This could be trouble if you have different TMPLs for the same resource type, and, if the resource is the wrong size, it runs into problems... but otherwise, it works fine.

Right now, I'm trying to reverse engineer the MacBinary decoder to encode files. How do CRC's work?

------------------
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Quote

Originally posted by Sheer_falacy:
**Actually, I think stuffit can decode .hqx files.

However, there probably is some way to keep PC users (or at least ones without Basilisk II ;)) from using it. But why does it matter to you? I don't think that it damages something if idiots use it. Idiots use everything.

**

Idiot PC users have earned a special place in my heart. This place loves to cry out, "And you will know endless pain!" when it captures it's victims, and the only thing it loves more than that is to make good on it's promise. The constant flamers and whatnot have convinced me that they are not worthy of good TC's, and every attempt should be made to make them suffer. Let them suffer through the long download, then the long unstuffing, only to find the file is fux0red on their windows machine. Will they yell, "OMG macs sux!! teh plug si borken!!!1" and then dislike Macs even more? Probably. Will I care? Not really. I just want to see them squirm.

------------------
"Moronic User Error. Details:If I had hands I would slap you silly."
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Quote

Originally posted by Admiral Benden:
**Idiot PC users have earned a special place in my heart. This place loves to cry out, "And you will know endless pain!" when it captures it's victims, and the only thing it loves more than that is to make good on it's promise. The constant flamers and whatnot have convinced me that they are not worthy of good TC's, and every attempt should be made to make them suffer. Let them suffer through the long download, then the long unstuffing, only to find the file is fux0red on their windows machine. Will they yell, "OMG macs sux!! teh plug si borken!!!1" and then dislike Macs even more? Probably. Will I care? Not really. I just want to see them squirm.

**

I actually see more Mac users flaming IBM/PC users here (classic example: you), but whatever. I doubt there is anything you can do to completely prevent use of the plug-in by IBM/PC users while still having it be usable on a Mac, but you can try if you want. In the end, it will make little difference.

Ugh. Stupid conversation. I must stop replying to flame-inciting posts...

------------------
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Quote

Originally posted by Sheer_falacy:
**I actually see more Mac users flaming IBM/PC users here (classic example: you), but whatever. I doubt there is anything you can do to completely prevent use of the plug-in by IBM/PC users while still having it be usable on a Mac, but you can try if you want. In the end, it will make little difference.

Ugh. Stupid conversation. I must stop replying to flame-inciting posts...

**

You probably see more Mac users flaming PC users here because we have a higher percentage of Mac users. The PC users are mostly of the smart kind and don't flame.

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I see this as a good thing. I have a huge PC game modding comunity at my disposal and several HUGE plug-ins are already in the works

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by Sheer_falacy:
**I'm actually trying to do this...

What package did you find to deal with MacBinary files? I found two. I also found something that can decode PICTs, which is rather useful. Then I put it together, and added in something that can view it using TMPLs.

At this point, it can read a MacBinary. If you have the TMPL, and it doesn't use ZCNT, OCNT, or LSTC (which, sadly, excludes #STR but not TMPL), it shows it. It also displays uncompressed PICTS. Whenever you open a file with TMPLs in it, it adds those and remembers them. This could be trouble if you have different TMPLs for the same resource type, and, if the resource is the wrong size, it runs into problems... but otherwise, it works fine.

Right now, I'm trying to reverse engineer the MacBinary decoder to encode files. How do CRC's work?

**

Well, you're probably much more qualified to complete this kind of project than I am, as I'm still in the process of finishing my learning process of the basics (I have prior programming experience, but I'm only about half-way through my one-semester Java class...after this I'll probably have to mess around with some more programs before I can say I really know Java).

The MacBinary library I found (still haven't looked at the code yet, just the API) was the MacBinary Toolkit 2, which you can find here:
(url="http://"http://www.amug.org/~glguerin/sw/index.html")http://www.amug.org/...n/sw/index.html(/url)

Again, probably a consequence of my lowly programming skills, but what's a CRC?

You don't have to do this, but I'm kind of interested in what you do have so far...would you be willing to share the code you have with me (e-mail)? It's highly unlikely I could do nearly as much as you have in such a short amount of time, but I could probably learn a lot from it. Thanks in advance, either way.

------------------
Mike Lee (Firebird)
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That's the MacBinary reader I found second. I still don't understand how it works, so could you please enlighten me?

The API I found was ResCafe, and the link where I got it from doesn't work anymore. I just took the (very convenient) resource reading part of it and added in TMPL support as well as PICT support (using tools available (url="http://"http://lsrwww.epfl.ch/wiesmann/jqd/")here(/url)). For the pict support, I just found (url="http://"http://jqd.apple.com/pub/doc")this(/url), which might have helped a lot.

I don't know what a CRC is. According to the specification for MacBinary II available (url="http://"http://www.lazerware.com/formats/macbinary.html")here(/url), byte 125 of a MacBinary II file is a CRC of the previous 124 bytes, for verification purposes.

If you want, I could send the source. I've never taken a full course in Java in my life. I took the waiver test for the one at my school, and I've gone to a computer camp several times, but otherwise all my knowldege comes from books. I also have JBuilder, which helps immensely (automatic code completion). If you want, I can send you the source.

------------------
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That's the MacBinary reader I found second. I still don't understand how it works, so could you please enlighten me?

Well, I'm going to be bogged down for the next week or two, but after that I should be home free and have plenty of time. I'll take a good look at it then and see if I can't make some sense out of it.

The API I found was ResCafe, and the link where I got it from doesn't work anymore. I just took the (very convenient) resource reading part of it and added in TMPL support as well as PICT support (using tools available (url="http://"http://lsrwww.epfl.ch/wiesmann/jqd/")here(/url)). For the pict support, I just found (url="http://"http://jqd.apple.com/pub/doc")this(/url), which might have helped a lot.

I'll take a look at these...they'll probably be helpful pieces of software in general, even for projects not related to this.

I don't know what a CRC is. According to the specification for MacBinary II available (url="http://"http://www.lazerware.com/formats/macbinary.html")here(/url), byte 125 of a MacBinary II file is a CRC of the previous 124 bytes, for verification purposes.

I just looked it up...here's a definition I found:

Quote

CRC(Cyclic Redundancy Check)
examination of all data in order to ensure that no errors occured during copying

I'd assume this is sort of like a checksum type thing, or like the two end bars on a bar code, where you put all the rest of the data through some kind of formula and it's supposed to equal a particular value.

If you want, I could send the source. I've never taken a full course in Java in my life. I took the waiver test for the one at my school, and I've gone to a computer camp several times, but otherwise all my knowldege comes from books. I also have JBuilder, which helps immensely (automatic code completion). If you want, I can send you the source.

You know, I'd be grateful if you'd send me a copy (mikelee@cyml.cjb.net). Learning by example is a very good way to learn. And as for the Java class, I don't think I'm learning very many truly useful Java skills from it...we learn about the language, but I seriously doubt you could take half the class to a computer and have them be able to write a program and run it. I'm just taking it because it's an honors class at my school, plus it's kind of fun (and I sometimes use it as a study hall)...and there's also the final project; last year, this one kid made a game that one of my friends said looked like networkable EV, but it was really just a multiplayer 2D sprite-based combat game. It was cool though.

Yeah, I use jEdit at home, with nice useful plug-ins for programming in Java. Funny how I'm using a Java application to write Java.

In any case, it'd be great if you'd be willing to send me the code...if I manage to figure some stuff out, I'll be sure to share whatever I find out with you.

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Mike Lee (Firebird)
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Admiral, I'm getting mixed messages from your posts; are you simply angry with PC users who are jackasses, or just PC users in general? Honestly, you are portaying the stereotypical Mac aloofness that turn so many people off, whether or not you meant it. If I'm reading you wrong, my utmost apologies, but I swear (and I think others may agree) you have it in for non-Mac users.

'And you will know endless pain!'

Sheesh, I've had bad days too, but Holy Moses!

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