Short Desc: a TC based on J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Silmarillion", set in space.

Current Stage: Conception. Will begin actual work on it after Christmas,
2003.

I'm looking for Tolkien fans who want to help me on this plug-in. It's
a rather ambitious plan for me, since the last time I made a plug-in was
back in the days of the original EV, and I never finished it.

So let me know if you want to help out, and post ideas and comments here!

Current concepts:

Most fights will be done with extremely short-range beam weapons (aka swords).
There'll be some long-range weapons too (arrows and throwing knifes/axes), but
will be much less powerful and rarely be guided. Most weapons will have use an
exit-type that has a relatively large horizontal offset, to simulate the effects
of weilding swords. So if you point your "ship" straight against the enemy,
you'll almost certainly miss (unless it's something huge...)

Fuel/Energy will play a major role in the game, as it'll represent "stamina" in
the game, and most attacks will use stamina. Acceleration in general will be
turned quite low, so using afterburner (built in for most ships) will be extremely
important for battles.

The basic map will be based on the territories before the Battle of Sudden Flame,
since that's when we have the most political divisions on the map. With mutation
tricks, maps before Nagorthond and Gondolin were established can be created, and
with different starting char, you can pick when to enter the game, and join in on
one of the big battles, aid epic heros like Turin Turamber (make sure you don't
use a sword to cut ropes, even if there's no knife...), and maybe even
change the fate of Beleriand!

I'm currently designing the Girdle of Melian, which none shall pass against the
King's will, unless driven by a doom greater by the powers of Melian. Entry system
into Doriath won't be visible unless you have some NCBs set, and without them, you'll
be randomly teleported between a few systems that have no exit, and lots of enemies.
You won't be able to escape unless you got lucky and got teleported to the one system
that allows you to get out.

I'm not a graphics person, so for now I'll use existing graphics to represent the
races. Auroans for Dwarfs, Pirates for teh servents of Morgoth, Feds for Men, Vell-os
for elves, and Polaris for Valar/Maia/other beings of great power. That's general
thinking, and exceptions can always happen.

Ships probably will represent the type of armor you are wearing, or what class your
character are. I'm not very set on that.

Hypergates and teleportation NCBs will be utilized quite a bit for places that have
restrictive access (Angband, Gondolin, Doriath, Nargothand befure the bridge was built).

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One problem; the Silmarillon is arrse-numbingly boring.

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Vote 1 for Zaphod Beeblebrox- No one can escape Beeblebrox!

Quote

Originally posted by Beeblebrox:
**One problem; the Silmarillon is arrse-numbingly boring.

**

I take it you've never read the Unfinished Tales and
The History Of Middle Earth? Actually, they aren't technically
in the book "The Silmarillion", but when I said The Silmarillion
I was also thinking about those.

As for the book "The Silmarillion" being boring, it's more of a
personal style/taste thing, and debate on that is more pointless
than "mac vs pc/win" or "emacs vs vi" or "pepsi vs coca-cola". d-:

Within the tales of the First Age of Middle Earth, there are lots
of stories to be told, lots of heroic deeds to be sung, and of course
the plug-in won't just have the stories that were told in the book.
Rather, it uses the First Age of Middle Earth, as described in
the book, as a backdrop, a setting, in which we may freely add great
deeds to, and expand our imagination upon.

To go back on topic, here's another concept:

The "shield" of ships will become a "parry-meter". Due to engine
constraints we cannot emulate swords crossing, or shield deflecting
arrows. So the "shield" from original game represents one's response
on blocking, parrying, and evading blows. When the "shield" drops
to zero, that indicates the person is being overwhelmed (whether due
to skill, strain, or being outnumbered) and cannot react in time enough
to fend off the attack. So then "armor" of ships become like health, hp,
of traditional RPG games.

My development plan for the plug is to first develop the general map,
then governments, then develop the "ships" and weapons, and finally
missions. This is by no means a linear process, and some missions might
be done earlier, and changes to map be made later, and other things
somewhere in between.

Part of the reason I'm going to hold actual development of the plug-in
until Chrismas is because I left the entire THOME series at home, as
well as the "Maps of Middle Earth". With only "The Silmarillion" (the
book) by my side, I can't build even a map that'll be satisfactory enough
for me (there's only a crudely drawn map of Beleriand in the book).

Again, I'm looking for other Tolkien fans for suggestions, ideas, and
help (who was it that named his ships after the seven sons of Feanor?).
This topic will surely be locked if we simply discuss Tolkien's work
from the literary point of view...

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Hmmm... would planets be like castles/cities? Then there could be siege weapons, which could hit them. That would be cool.

You'd need to change some terms, too. Tons just wouldn't work ;).

Also, I think that that is an excellent idea as to how a shield could work. There could be certain weapons--whether a very accurate bow, or something magical, or something like that, which went through shields. Also, the shield animation could be the character holding out a shield. Ta-da! My brilliance manifests :).

I might help program this. Don't ask me to write, though. English is my worst subject (still in school).

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Quote

Originally posted by Sheer_falacy:
**Hmmm... would planets be like castles/cities? Then there could be siege weapons, which could hit them. That would be cool.

You'd need to change some terms, too. Tons just wouldn't work ;).

Also, I think that that is an excellent idea as to how a shield could work. There could be certain weapons--whether a very accurate bow, or something magical, or something like that, which went through shields. Also, the shield animation could be the character holding out a shield. Ta-da! My brilliance manifests :).

I might help program this. Don't ask me to write, though. English is my worst subject (still in school).

**

Planets would be more like forts, towers, or main landmarks. If a planet represents
a city then there won't be many planets in the game d-:

If you want to work on the graphics/animation, that'd be great (since I'm not a graphics
person). I have no idea how the graphics in general should look though (everything
I can think of seem ugly/stupid), that's why I was going to start off with just using
the graphics from Nova (and maybe also borrow some from EVO and EV).

Ionization would be casting a net over the person, restraining movement. (Magic is never
very explicit in Tolkien's writing. No fireballs or lightening bolts to strike at
enemies. More like enchantments, or things that affect fate/mentality).

System 128 should be somewhere in the west on the coasts, or somewhere near one of the
great rivers, where the powers of Ulmos run strong, and protects all, except if we also
allow the player to be on Morgorth's side, then Ulmos probably want to drawn you more
than protect you... Well, I guess when your ship blows up all your legal records clears
anyways (at least in EV. I haven't used an escape pod in EV:N yet, so I don't know),
so it'd be alright. d-:

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This sounds interesting and it seems your timeline is to get started about the time I hope to finish my plugin. I'm not sure about a few things though...

Do you mean to make this a space adventure that is based on the works of Tolkien? Or that you want it to look like middle earth with characters and planets that look like buildings and things?

My vote would be to keep the theme and story ideas of the Tolkien works, but place them in a different setting: space. You could name planets and systems for the places and things mentioned in the book. And the same for ships and characters. I like the idea, and I have been a fan of Tolkien for years. I think that you have a great idea if it is done right. And if I can help, I certainly would love to be involved in a project like this.

I am still learning but I have experience with writting most resources involved in nova plugins and have recently begun modeling in 3d. So I can pretty much do anything. Check my site below for samples of what I'm working on now...

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(url="http://"http://www.polytone.net/new_axiom")nova: the new axiom(/url)
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(This message has been edited by polystatic (edited 11-12-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by polystatic:
**This sounds interesting and it seems your timeline is to get started about the time I hope to finish my plugin. I'm not sure about a few things though...

Do you mean to make this a space adventure that is based on the works of Tolkien? Or that you want it to look like middle earth with characters and planets that look like buildings and things?

My vote would be to keep the theme and story ideas of the Tolkien works, but place them in a different setting: space. You could name planets and systems for the places and things mentioned in the book. And the same for ships and characters. I like the idea, and I have been a fan of Tolkien for years. I think that you have a great idea if it is done right. And if I can help, I certainly would love to be involved in a project like this.

I am still learning but I have experience with writting most resources involved in nova plugins and have recently begun modeling in 3d. So I can pretty much do anything. Check my site below for samples of what I'm working on now...

**

My ideas is to set it in space, but have as many terms and logistics from classic
Tolkien fantasy as possible. Hence if someone just extracts all the text and read it,
he won't be able to tell that it's a space game. But just looking at the graphics it'll
be pretty much space-themed (using graphics of Nova/Override/EV).

At least that's the original idea. Again, with the EV:N engine, I can't really imagine
ways to set it up so it looks natural but not set in space. But it's still in conception
stage, so many things can change greatly. And if someone can come up with graphics
and animation and make it look natural (non-awkard), I'd be willing to test it out.

I definitely want to offer a version of this plug that has no (or very little) new
graphics, so people on modems can still download it. So even if new graphics are devised
for the plug-in, they'll be like "plug-ins for the plug-in", not requried to play, but
serves as extra eye-candy, and is optional to download.

My expertise is in programming/coding, so most of my personal focus on the plugin will
be to manipulate NCBs in convoluted ways to make it a very non-linear experience, and
have many subplots/subbranches. Time will play a much bigger role in missions, in
terms of both deadlines and availability (say goodbye to passengers who don't mind
if it takes one thousand years for you to ferry them from Earth to Viking!).

You'll be able to take up service with elf princes, but that means you have to check
back in every once in a while, else you get fired. You'll be able to hear the summons
of battle, and can go join it, but the battle won't wait for you to accept it, or to
go there and finish it. If you don't accept it within a time, or don't finish it in
a certain time, then the battle would be over, and perhaps your sword wasn't really
needed there, or perhaps your sword could've turned the tide and prevented the ruin
of a city. But it'll also be possible that your joining the battle would be of no
help, and while you can win a fight, still lose the battle.

You probalby won't be able to kill Morgorth, but you might be able to stop the onslought
of Glaurung the dragon sooner, and keep the siege of Angband unbroken.

Governments will be set up in such a way so that you can do missions for the sons
of Feanor that increase your legal ratings with all elves in general, while other
missions for the sons of Feanor might earn the wrath of Fingolfin and Thingol. Alliances
will change, and treasons committed and reconciled, and these dynamic will be reflected.

------------------
Fundraising to buy a mac so I can play EV:N without using a Emulator (too slow with carrier combats) or taking over my best friend's computer.
Please send all contributions via paypal to panguim@uclink4.berkeley.edu

I think that sounds really cool. And like you said, I would keep it in space. It will make a very indepth set of missions and provide a really enthralling plugin. I like the info in your last post PanSola. I'd love to help out where I can. There are some logistics that I think should not be overcomplicated, but it sounds like you have a good bearing to get started. The missions should really be the heart of the plug. It sounds great.

Let me know what, when, and how I can help.

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(url="http://"http://www.polytone.net/new_axiom")nova: the new axiom(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.polytone.net")polytone.net: exploring a new era in music(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by polystatic:
**I think that sounds really cool. And like you said, I would keep it in space. It will make a very indepth set of missions and provide a really enthralling plugin. I like the info in your last post PanSola. I'd love to help out where I can. There are some logistics that I think should not be overcomplicated, but it sounds like you have a good bearing to get started. The missions should really be the heart of the plug. It sounds great.

Let me know what, when, and how I can help.

**

Right now it's still in the conceptual stage, so I need concepts d-: So, anything you can think of on how the plug should work out, either in areas that I haven't mentioned,
or a different approach to something I've talked about.

I'm right now thinking about how many systems to use for the kingdoms of Doriath,
Nargorthand, and Gondolin. They are kingdoms, but at the same time they are pretty much
just one huge city each, plus surrounding territory that's also under their rule, but
not heavily populated.

Perhaps Gondolin will be about 10 systems. It is the city of 7 names, and it kind of has
7 sub-cities within the realm. Add that to the tower of the King, and a few other stuff,
makes it 10 systems. I don't have Unfinished Tales, THOME, or the Map of Middle Earth
with me though, so it's really hard to plan these out.

So yeah, just post any concepts you have in this thread (-:

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Sounds just like a plug I had going a few months back and lost when my laptop was stolen, based on the Three Kingdoms period of China. Each system was a province, and could be controlled by 1 of three governments. You could go to war and take a province, or be attacked and have to defend, while Crons simulated infighting between the other two governments. You had soldiers, archers, and cavalry, everything was inertialess, and the background was green to brown to blue, depending on the province. Planets were fortresses, and siege weapons could destroy them. You were the Ruler of one of the kingdoms, and your escorts were your personal bodyguards. You could travel between provinces trading such things as silk, tea, and opium when you weren't being attacked, or just 'train' your forces. It all worked very well in my plug- pity I was never able to finish it.

My advice: spend some time in the STR# resources, changing such things as Hyperjump to "forced march" or some such, and spend some time changing/finding new jump sounds. I used a marching sound, and had all the units set as slow jumping, with outfits that made it take many days for each jump. Also, be sure to change the normal commodities to more suitable substances. Creating a new interface is easy and well worth it.

Good luck!

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~Charlie
"Even the Buddha
despaired of saving
women" ~Takuan

I liked 'Unfinished Tales', I just didn't like the book 'The Silmarillon'.

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Vote 1 for Zaphod Beeblebrox- No one can escape Beeblebrox!

Just remembered something else- even though I hadn't done the graphics yet, everything was defined as planetary. I had plans to make horizontal and vertical walls, so I could construct fortifications out of spobs, that would stop attacker's weapons. I never tested it, but I think the AI does a good job of avoiding deadly spobs as well, which would make really cool walls used right.

So (my mind races), you could make a box of 4 deadly wall spobs, with a fortress spob in the middle, as well as a "drawbridge spob" on the outside, that has a mission always available that will move you into the fortress/inner spob... The computer can't use it, but it allows you to get inside your fortifications... Hmmm.... and all the "walls" have a finite strength, but only seige weapons do enough damage to destroy them in a timely fashion... HMMM.... This really makes me want to recreate my plug!

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~Charlie

I still think that the plug would be better suited as using the themes and names of Tolkiens works, and not try to build castles and things. It would be really cool if the stories of the Silmarillion or other works were worked into missions and the like while keeping the setting in an ev: nova vein:
Ships of the various 'governments' could be made to reflect the species of its citizens. Planets could be arranged and follow settings with landing pictures of different areas of the Tolkien map. etc...
I don't see a reason to over complicate the plugin. If you want to make a fantasy rpg great, but perhaps you should use coldstone. I don't want to sound mean or anything. I just think over complicating it in the ways expressed so far will make it kind of cheeesy.
I suggest we start by figuring out how to work out the story, and developing the map, picts and sprites of ships and planets. Then as need arises we can work out how to incorporate logistical things into the plugin...

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(This message has been edited by polystatic (edited 11-14-2002).)

With respect, the idea of contorting the space-based EV engine to power a traditional RPG has been tried before (by Meowx) and it wasn't a good idea then, either. Why not use Coldstone, which was actually designed with this sort of thing in mind?

-reg

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"Oh crap. I'm going to hell - I put the Bible next to Mein Kampf again."
-Her Holiness, Pope Jenne "Kirby" Hubbs

Quote

Originally posted by Regulus:
**With respect, the idea of contorting the space-based EV engine to power a traditional RPG has been tried before (by Meowx) and it wasn't a good idea then, either. Why not use Coldstone, which was actually designed with this sort of thing in mind?

-reg

**

Because my plans have been what Polystaic was suggesting d-: I'm not turning it into
a mod of traditional RPG. The most it'll be is a fantasy adventure game (as EV is
classified as space adventure, IIRC).

Remember, the short desc of my plug in is: a TC based on J.R.R. Tolkien's "The
Silmarillion", set in space.

Masamune: how do you make spob block off enemy weapons? I'm probalby not going to build
castle out of spobs, but if what you mentioned is possible, that allows some interesting
ideas (-:

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Make all weapons planetary weapons- they will hit any spob in the way. If all the ships are planetary as well, no problem.

Quote

Originally posted by Masamune:
Make all weapons planetary weapons- they will hit any spob in the way. If all the ships are planetary as well, no problem.

Hmm.... then if you also want to have siege weapons, which would be planetary as
well, they'll have to be super stronger than regular ship weapons. But then you
can use siege weapons against regular ships too, since all the ships would be
planetary too, and pretty much die an instant death from siege weapons (since you
want the ship weapons to be able to kill them too).

Well, I suppose you can make siege weapon super slow so in all praticality it can
only hit non-moving targets. And if any ship is dumb enough to get hit by such
weapon, it deserves to die... unless fired at extreme close range?

I don't have the bible with me right now, but I think there is a field in the weapon
resource that prevents a missile from exploding too soon after being fired? If that
is the case, then I guess I kinda answered my own questions.

Hmm... except if now a ship fires a siege weapon extremely close to a spob, then
it can pass through, and hit something behind it, since it won't explode immediately?

I annoy the heck out of myself by keep answering my own questions and ask more of
them... )-:

additional concepts to the plug are still welcome (-:

Well, if you look at war- take such a movie as gladiator- siege weapons did do a good job of taking out enemy soldiers. They just fire slow, and move really slow. As far as a weapon hold off, the prox-safety field does just that. Think torpedoes in sub combat- they don't arm until they are a distance from the ship. However, in nova, if the projectile hits something, but is not armed, it is stopped but does no damage. So, the siege weapon isn't going to blast through spobs. No problem.

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~Charlie

Looks Cool. If you want Elvish Writing, then I can Do that, and I would suguest that elves be polaris, and Vell-os be Vala/Wizards. I'v only read LotR 8 times, ate Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales once each.

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