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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
**A solid, interesting plotline (text) takes precedance above all else. Sufficient action is critical as well to keep gameplay from getting boring (no one likes a lot of "land here, read, fly to location x and read some more"), but for me playing through a scenario or plotline isn't satisfying if it doesn't make some coherent sense or have something original to offer.

In short, I basically totally agree with you bomb. Big surprise, I know...

**

I'm shocked, UEC..

But I'm a bit curious- are you in it for the overall effect (the journey) or the payoff (the cash, the ship, the babe, etc..)? Is getting to the top of the mountain more important than planting the flag at the top of the peak?

_bomb

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I think that you don't see many love stories in EV simply because the engine isn't quite geared towards that. What are you going to do, keep meeting your significant other in a bar (or, with Nova, the Outfitter, Shipyard, or Trade Center) and have questions like "Will you go out on a date with me?" | Yes/No | "Great, pick me up on <DST> in a month and we'll have dinner."?
-EVula

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Originally posted by pistgavin:
**I think the most satisfying part of a mission string is where your government (the one you work for) start to take over enemy systems, or making them uninhabited. That's why I prefer EVO over EV... just that, being able to take over Voinian space as a UE captain. Great fun...

--gav

**

I agree with you. Seeing stuff change is one of the most satisfying elements to a plotline. However- do you want to see things to their ultimate completion, or would you rather it was left a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation..? EVO obviously leaves room for plug-in developers, but would you have preferred to see it finished once and for all by Peter Cartwright, or is it better to be able to see other people's takes on it, and be able to pretty much dream up your own, as well?

_bomb

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I think that you don't see many love stories in EV simply because the engine isn't quite geared towards that. What are you going to do, keep meeting your significant other in a bar (or, with Nova, the Outfitter, Shipyard, or Trade Center) and have questions like "Will you go out on a date with me?" | Yes/No | "Great, pick me up on <DST> in a month and we'll have dinner."?
-EVula

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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
**Well, in those latter two missions the chance for combat is certainly open. People shouldn't complain about a lack of combat when they have an obvious opportunity to partake it.

In the case of the Vell-Os string, I think its one of those cases where the plot and the general uniqueness of the string made up for any deficiency in action. That string is the first time in ANY scenario where the player has been enslaved. The first time I played through it, I was too interested to notice that I wasn't blasting stuff. And besides, there's no doubt at all that Vell-Os ships are among the coolest and strongest in the game. Once the string is over, you basically have the power to match up against anything.

While in my opinion there have been much better mission strings, but the Vell-Os string is definitely a classic and I think its far from dull. The original concept frees it from any mundane qualities it has.

UEC

**

How the Vell-Os were handled was very unique and interesting, however it had one especially crucial element to it: it took the power virtually out of the hands of the player. Do you guys mind being "lead" by the scenario developer, or would you much rather have some clear cut choices (as in, between the Zidagar, Adzgari and Igadzra..)?

_bomb

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I think that you don't see many love stories in EV simply because the engine isn't quite geared towards that. What are you going to do, keep meeting your significant other in a bar (or, with Nova, the Outfitter, Shipyard, or Trade Center) and have questions like "Will you go out on a date with me?" | Yes/No | "Great, pick me up on <DST> in a month and we'll have dinner."?
-EVula

And I apologize if I annoyed anyone with my 10 straight posts- I just wanted to reply to each one of you individually, because I'm interested in what you all have to say. As the audience who will be playing future scenarios, your feedback is crucial (and not to mention very interesting..).

_bomb

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I think that you don't see many love stories in EV simply because the engine isn't quite geared towards that. What are you going to do, keep meeting your significant other in a bar (or, with Nova, the Outfitter, Shipyard, or Trade Center) and have questions like "Will you go out on a date with me?" | Yes/No | "Great, pick me up on <DST> in a month and we'll have dinner."?
-EVula

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posted by bomb: But I'm a bit curious- are you in it for the overall effect (the journey) or the payoff (the cash, the ship, the babe, etc..)? Is getting to the top of the mountain more important than planting the flag at the top of the peak?

No, I'd say they are about equal. I think the best mission strings are the ones that don't lull and keep you interested most of the way through. That said, some really nice payoff is a big plus: in particular, I LOVE getting access to new ships and outfits because it gives me more to experiment and mess around with. When I play the game I get a lot of enjoyment out of flying around practically every ship worth a damn. So when new stuff turns up midway, I'm estatic. Reward at the very end is nice too, but I think its better in the middle--in EV you can finally get that shiny new Rebel or Fed Cruiser, but it doesn't really matter because your job is over. Well, not really, plugs add to it--but if you are doing a plug-in scenario, more than likely it won't be expanded and I think its a good idea to take advantage of what you have built in. If you get access to something good just in time to use it in a big battle or for an important mission, it works better as a plot device because it has a reason for existing. Not that everything needs that reason, but on certain things it helps. In Frozen Heart, for example, getting the Tachyonic Fighter is an important part to the plot--in the context of the scenario it lets Lars (you) travel a hell of a lot faster than anyone else and out perform anything at or a level above its class, and without it the black hole could not have been destroyed.

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How the Vell-Os were handled was very unique and interesting, however it had one especially crucial element to it: it took the power virtually out of the hands of the player. Do you guys mind being "lead" by the scenario developer, or would you much rather have some clear cut choices (as in, between the Zidagar, Adzgari and Igadzra..)?

Good question....I like choice, but as EVN has demonstrated linear paths can be done very I think both can be extremely enjoyable. That said, the ability to make choices and decide how you align is important and one people in general REALLY want to have. Even in EVN, whether you continue working for the Bureau or end up with the Rebellion depends on a moral choice that you make. Even if you go linear, people like to have some versatility. On the other hand, Frozen Heart was TOTALLY linear with one massive string and everyone loved it.

I think there is a third option in addition to the above two; lead the player into a path, and then give him some freedom to decide where it takes him. Or, even better, present him with a choice and make it ambiguous as to what each choice will do.... Seriously. In the Fed/Rebel string I could tell which choice would get me to work for the Rebs. Not that that's bad, but just think of of the uncertainity of having a to make a choice and risking unintended consequences that could either be good or bad!

Well, I'm guessing you are asking all this to help improve that secret project of yours. Well, I don't know what you have in mind, but I think its clear that a lot of options are on the table--I'm assuming that your scenario will be somewhat open with different factions, and will have several plotlines. I think how you should handle your respective mission strings (I'm assuming there are several) will vary depending on what you have in mind for each one. Maybe this doesn't help much, but perhaps you need to sit down and think long and hard about which style suits what you have in mind best on a case-by-case basis. As long as you know where you're going, practically any style you pick will be enjoyable if its done well....especially coming from you!

That was pretty damn long. Hope it helps....

UEC

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"Meetings were created by God, but separation was created by man."
-Subaru, (url="http://"http://www.dothack.com").hack//sign (/url)
(url="http://"http://www.intothematrix.com")The Animatrix(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net")EV-Nova.net(/url)

(This message has been edited by UE Crusader (edited 05-10-2003).)

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Originally posted by Bomb:
**Ok, then Tom, my question for you is- which style do you prefer? EVO's sectioned missions (as in, you do something here, then later something completely different later, etc.. Example: You fight the Voinians, go fight the Huron independance movement, then later free the Hinwar..) Then, you have the option to go and work for the Miranu, Zachit, Renegades, or one the Strands.. Or, do you prefer EVN's one-shot setup, where you can only work as one group, but you get a really long involved mission string for them. Actually, anybody can answer.. Do you guys prefer longevity or diversity? Or both? (keeping in mind both would probably kill any developer who attempted it)

_bomb
**

I wont then answer both if its going to kill any developer that tries it ;). I like having a lots of minor strings to do during or after the main string. But that means the main string doesnt do as much changes to the galaxy. Because changes to the galaxy are more satisfying than just a wellwritten text that enterains you, I ansver longevity. You are going to see results of your work when minor strings leave a feeling you actually did little (like Zachit) or nothing (Kirrim Prime). Which doesnt mean you shouldnt have them- they are still enteraining.

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I am eager to try to ansver mission questions

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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
**Good question....I like choice, but as EVN has demonstrated linear paths can be done very well. I think both can be extremely enjoyable. That said, the ability to make choices and decide how you align is important and one people in general REALLY want to have. Even in EVN, whether you continue working for the Bureau or end up with the Rebellion depends on a moral choice that you make. Even if you go linear, people like to have some versatility. On the other hand, Frozen Heart was TOTALLY linear with one massive string and everyone loved it.

**

True- but many people have complained about how you don't have any choice in FH, and also- people were somewhat confused by the whole Fed/Bureau/Rebel thing. I personally thought it was some great scenario writing. But then again, people will get confused and or bitch about anything here.. It's sort of a matter of walking a fine line and knowing your audience.

**

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I think there is a third option in addition to the above two; lead the player into a path, and then give him some freedom to decide where it takes him. Or, even better, present him with a choice and make it ambiguous as to what each choice will do.... Seriously. In the Fed/Rebel string I could tell which choice would get me to work for the Rebs. Not that that's bad, but just think of of the uncertainity of having a to make a choice and risking unintended consequences that could either be good or bad!

**

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Originally posted by General Cade Smart:
**I wont then answer both if its going to kill any developer that tries it;). I like having a lots of minor strings to do during or after the main string. But that means the main string doesnt do as much changes to the galaxy. Because changes to the galaxy are more satisfying than just a wellwritten text that enterains you, I ansver longevity. You are going to see results of your work when minor strings leave a feeling you actually did little (like Zachit) or nothing (Kirrim Prime). Which doesnt mean you shouldnt have them- they are still enteraining.

**

I see- so minor strings are good because they sort of suplement the major, epic strings. I tend to agree with this- I like the little inconsequential ones because they tend to be really interesting. I also enjoy major strings for the same reasons that you do- to see the galaxy change, to feel like the galaxy is alive. Changes and minor strings really do it pretty well..

Thanks for your input as well, Cade.

_bomb

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I think that you don't see many love stories in EV simply because the engine isn't quite geared towards that. What are you going to do, keep meeting your significant other in a bar (or, with Nova, the Outfitter, Shipyard, or Trade Center) and have questions like "Will you go out on a date with me?" | Yes/No | "Great, pick me up on <DST> in a month and we'll have dinner."?
-EVula

Exactly. They give more thíngs to enjoy while dojing a major string, as a relaxation from the difficulty that is the major strings. They also keep you from being bored after a major string that makes you want more. Thats awesome if we can agree! Yup, that is important. A plug without them can be good, but isnt as interesting (thinking of the extra ship plugs...). I could make a Age of Kings analogy, but you wouldnt probably understand it. Yes they do! And new stuff like new ships ofcourse. And a mysterious nebula to explore, probably with great rewards as a optional extra. Think second F-25 after Galactus Group space or Tryakk in your own plug...

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I am eager to try to ansver mission questions

(This message has been edited by General Cade Smart (edited 05-19-2003).)

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Originally posted by General Cade Smart:
**Exactly. They give more thíngs to enjoy while dojing a major string, as a relaxation from the difficulty that is the major strings. They also keep you from being bored after a major string that makes you want more. Thats awesome if we can agree!:D Yup, that is important. A plug without them can be good, but isnt as interesting (thinking of the extra ship plugs...). I could make a Age of Kings analogy, but you wouldnt probably understand it. Yes they do! And new stuff like new ships ofcourse. And a mysterious nebula to explore, probably with great rewards as a optional extra. Think second F-25 after Galactus Group space or Tryakk in your own plug...

**

Love AoE II. The Conquerors is solid as well. Analogize away.

_bomb

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I think that you don't see many love stories in EV simply because the engine isn't quite geared towards that. What are you going to do, keep meeting your significant other in a bar (or, with Nova, the Outfitter, Shipyard, or Trade Center) and have questions like "Will you go out on a date with me?" | Yes/No | "Great, pick me up on <DST> in a month and we'll have dinner."?
-EVula

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Originally posted by Bomb:
**Love AoE II. The Conquerors is solid as well. Analogize away.

_bomb

**

That is great! Do you like the first version too? Heh, we could have a multiplayer game sometimes probably if you allowed. Here is the analogy: the scenario editor comes with a tab called triggers. They are not reguired for the scenario to run, but so many use them they are practically reguired. A scenario without them will be called dull. They help you do all sorts of effects you cant do with normal gameplay. For example, how about changing the ownership of a unit to another civilization? Or in Conquerors as a new feature you can change the name and HP of units.

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I am eager to try to ansver mission questions