Ue Are MUCH better

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Voinians, simply because I got tired of the UE and their seemingly "one world" government...

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Quote

Originally posted by Captain Skyblade:
**Voinians, simply because I got tired of the UE and their seemingly "one world" government...

**

Voinia is under a "one world" government, too.

Still, I can see what you mean (I'm no fan of a one Earth government in reality, either), but I still support the UE.

Still, this debate seems to be a lot better than some UE/Voinian debates we've had. One of them was bloated with "Hunter Missile/Asteriod Field" arguments. I prefer moral and philosophical arguments myself.

God bless,

UE Patriot

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Quote

posted by htjyang:

If they are xenophobic, then it is natural that they do not want neighbors. True isolation is when there is literally nobody close by.

Aaah! Now I finally perceive what your precise analysis of Voinian xenophobia is. As they say in Congress, I wish to "revise and extend my remarks" on this issue, now that we've defined it in fairly specific terms.

As said before, I strongly oppose this type of xenophobic behavior. By this definition, to be truly in "isolation" and alone, they (the Voinians) have to conquer everyone they run into--and apparently enslave them in the process. This is an unending cycle, because as they conquer more territory they will inevitably run into race after race. This xenophobia is NOT a right and I will indeed deny it to them in a second, because the Voinians have NO right at all to attack, suppress, and in one case annilihate other races simply to accomodate their idea of being in isolation. What about the rights of all the other races? You can't put Voinian rights over the rights of the others. That is downright unfair, and the Voinians don't even have the moral high ground going for them (and even if they were the most moral of all the races, that wouldn't give them the right anyway). Now, if the Voinians just wanted to be isolated from all others and be left alone, I would definitely support their right to do that. This is basically what the Polaris in Nova did throughout most of their existence, and it is a very different type of isolationism: it is peaceful, and they aren't forcing their influence on anyone. Voinian xenophobia is, essentially, diamaterically opposite to this, and I think it cannot be justified.

Quote

Instead of shedding light on Voinian behavior, this may actually shed light on the races you mentioned. Your logic does not invalidate the possibility I presented. For all we know, they did invite Voinian rule, only later did they change their minds. It is even possible that a treaty was drawn up detailing the terms of the relationship and when they reneged on their part of the bargain, the Voinians retaliated by occupying them.

The "they were invited" argument is one of your driving points, so I need to examine it in depth in order to respond to it properly. Lets look at the situation race by race:

Re the Emalgha. This is the desc from Emalghion:

"Emalghia is the homeworld of the Emalgha people. The Emalgha had only recently achieved spaceflight when the Voinains attacked their system. They fought back with ferocity - but little success. Their world was occupied for almost a century, until a successful revolt was staged when the majority of the occupation force was called away to attack Earth. The Emalgha, making use of captured Voinian technology and their own primitive designs, fight a day-to-day struggle to protect their world from the Voinians."

This makes it pretty clear that the Voinians were never welcome on Emalghia, and it appears rather obvious that the Voinians are the clear aggressors. Its also a safe bet that the two races didn't even have contact before the Voinians came and invaded, as the desc clearly states that the Emalghans had only recently discovered spaceflight when they were attacked. Also note that Emalgha ships have a very short range; an EM Freighter can't go farther than Romit system without being stuck. "Okay," you might say, "they did that and met them then." BUT, achieving spaceflight isn't the same as learning hyperspace, as the latter is obviously more advanced. Therefore, its logical to conclude that the Emalgha learned hyperspace only after having Voinian technology to work with, and not before. This is 100% unprovoked aggression; Voinian behavior is definitely very clear on this count, and doesn't fall in line with your theory regarding it.

Re Tientu (a minor race): Nothing to help my argument here; I won't even bother quoting the desc, as it’s a real bore and I can state it better. Basically the Voinians came and replaced one set of dictators with another and the situation of the planet's inhabitants didn't really change; the fruit of their labors are just going to a different source, and the people of the planet barely even took notice when the Voinians took over. I mention this for the sake of being comprehensive.

Re Dieram (minor race #2):

"The natives of Dieram have always defied Voinian rule , and over the years the Voinians have, in retribution, exterminated large swathes of the population, or had them transported to other worlds. Now only a few million Deri remain, and the Voinians are beginning to turn their world into a center of heavy industry."

Obviously, if the Dieram have always defied Voinian rule, it makes no sense that they'd invite them to occupy their world and/or willingly serve as slaves under them. These guys actually have, for the most part, the same basic situation as the Emalgha. Unfortunately, they do not share their success against the Voinians. On a passing note, the rest of the desc sheds confirms that charming Voinian behavior: ruthlessy exterminating resistance, and shipping off troublemakers (if you want freedom, you're dangerous). But I digress.

Re the Dur & Ala (minor races #3 and #4): "The peoples of the two moons of Dur and Ala were involved in their own minor interplanetary war - before the Voinians arrived and crushed both sides. Now the peoples of Dur and Ala are united - in that they are both forced to toil ceaselessy in service of the Voinians."

Here it could be argued that the Dur and Ala were done a favor by having someone end their conflict for them, but one evil has basically been exchanged for another: war for slavery. Most importantly, we see yet again that the Voinians were (1) not invited into Dur & Ala territory, and (2) that their bondage is not willful.

Re the Hinwar: "Gualon is an important industrial Voinain world, based upon a massive native slave workforce (ed note: no Voinians working as slaves here). Gualon was conquered by the Voinians while the natives technology was still relatively primitive, and resistance was ruthlessy stamped out and is now negligible."

I concede that the desc does not contradict your contention, so it can be argued that it is possible that the Hinwar situation is as you say it is. I will address this, but there’s one more race to do first.

Re humanity: We have already debated this. In our preceding exchanges you concede that the Voinians were the aggressors in the Voinian War, and that the UE were not in the wrong regarding how they responded. Invited? Somehow, I think we both doubt that .

That took some time and the creation of a Voinian pilot to do, but it was worth it. At the end we have 2 examples in your favor (Tientu, Hinwar), and 4 examples in mine (Humans, Emalgha, Dieram, Dur & Ala). I think my argument comes out much stronger than yours for a couple reasons: One, there is more background info supporting it. Two, the two examples backing you up do so in that they don’t confirm my argument. However, they don’t do a whole lot to confirm yours either. With the Hinwar, it is technically possible that the situation is as you say it is. However, we need to look at the pattern of behavior. The background info of the other races (except for the Tientu) all contradict this line of thinking. Hence, it’s highly doubtful and illogical that the Voinians behave as you think they do towards the Hinwar, and behave the way I think they do towards everyone else. It has to be one way or the other. After this meticulous examination, in my opinion it is clear that the signs & evidence clearly serve to invalidate your contention that "they did invite Voinian rule" and that the majority of these races willingly serve as slaves. Now that the facts are clearly before us, I think that you will agree.

whew That was a loooong response! Moving on....

Quote

**Not so fast. If slavery is indeed economically-based, then for all we know, there may be very strict Voinian laws regarding slavery. For example, there might be laws dictating that a person can only become a slave willingly.(Motives can be numerous. If it is economically-based, it's quite possible that a person would willingly enter slavery to pay off a large debt. Or perhaps criminals must become slaves for their victims' families.) There might be laws dictating treatment of slaves (no "cruel and unusual" variety). There might be laws dictating that the slaves must be set free by a certain time. (If you read the Bible, you probably have a clue as to what I'm referring to.)
There are more possible systems than race-based onces. I already mentioned economically-based ones and I mentioend the possibility of one enforced as a matter of crime and punishment. People may also become slaves to repay a debt of honor.

In short, what if people became slaves through their own free will?**

I feel that the huge response above debunks the idea that Voinian slavery is willful quite well. If you feel it doesn't, say why and I'll address it in the next response.

Quote

If the system is not race-based, then the sources of slavery are numerous. As yet, you still have not presented any evidence erasing the possibility that Voinians may use their own as slaves, all the more possible if slavery is of the forms mentioned above. The forms mentioned above can ensure a steady supply of slaves (That is, unless Voinians can solve their crime problem and create a Communist paradise.) without conquest.

Ah, but we know there is conquest because of the nature of Voinian xenophobia, which you yourself have defined.

Quote

And, if they follow the pattern of Austria-Hungary, conquered races can become masters as well. (

All I can say is that I've read every Voinain desc, and every one identifies the taskmasters as being Voinian--there's no mention of members of other races being taskmasters.

Quote

**Your point one has been dealt with above.

As for point 2, I must say again: Not so fast.

I agree that the Hinwar lived under the shadow of miltiary coercion. But you have not yet demonstrated that they did not invite the Voinians in to begin with. Nor have you proven that they did not bring about their fate through faults of their own. As far as we know, the Hinwar may simply be ungrateful ingrates. (Perhaps reminding you of another race we're talking about in JC?)**

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Aaah! Now I finally perceive what your precise analysis of Voinian xenophobia is. As they say in Congress, I wish to "revise and extend my remarks" on this issue, now that we've defined it in fairly specific terms.

As said before, I strongly oppose this type of xenophobic behavior. By this definition, to be truly in "isolation" and alone, they (the Voinians) have to conquer everyone they run into--and apparently enslave them in the process. This is an unending cycle, because as they conquer more territory they will inevitably run into race after race. This xenophobia is NOT a right and I will indeed deny it to them in a second, because the Voinians have NO right at all to attack, suppress, and in one case annilihate other races simply to accomodate their idea of being in isolation. What about the rights of all the other races? You can't put Voinian rights over the rights of the others. That is downright unfair, and the Voinians don't even have the moral high ground going for them (and even if they were the most moral of all the races, that wouldn't give them the right anyway). Now, if the Voinians just wanted to be isolated from all others and be left alone, I would definitely support their right to do that. This is basically what the Polaris in Nova did throughout most of their existence, and it is a very different type of isolationism: it is peaceful, and they aren't forcing their influence on anyone. Voinian xenophobia is, essentially, diamaterically opposite to this, and I think it cannot be justified.(/quote)

I accept this line of reasoning. (See Review later on)

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
The "they were invited" argument is one of your driving points, so I need to examine it in depth in order to respond to it properly. Lets look at the situation race by race:

Re the Emalgha. This is the desc from Emalghion:

"Emalghia is the homeworld of the Emalgha people. The Emalgha had only recently achieved spaceflight when the Voinains attacked their system. They fought back with ferocity - but little success. Their world was occupied for almost a century, until a successful revolt was staged when the majority of the occupation force was called away to attack Earth. The Emalgha, making use of captured Voinian technology and their own primitive designs, fight a day-to-day struggle to protect their world from the Voinians."

This makes it pretty clear that the Voinians were never welcome on Emalghia, and it appears rather obvious that the Voinians are the clear aggressors. Its also a safe bet that the two races didn't even have contact before the Voinians came and invaded, as the desc clearly states that the Emalghans had only recently discovered spaceflight when they were attacked. Also note that Emalgha ships have a very short range; an EM Freighter can't go farther than Romit system without being stuck. "Okay," you might say, "they did that and met them then." BUT, achieving spaceflight isn't the same as learning hyperspace, as the latter is obviously more advanced. Therefore, its logical to conclude that the Emalgha learned hyperspace only after having Voinian technology to work with, and not before. This is 100% unprovoked aggression; Voinian behavior is definitely very clear on this count, and doesn't fall in line with your theory regarding it.

(snip)

Obviously, if the Dieram have always defied Voinian rule, it makes no sense that they'd invite them to occupy their world and/or willingly serve as slaves under them. These guys actually have, for the most part, the same basic situation as the Emalgha. Unfortunately, they do not share their success against the Voinians. On a passing note, the rest of the desc sheds confirms that charming Voinian behavior: ruthlessy exterminating resistance, and shipping off troublemakers (if you want freedom, you're dangerous). But I digress. (/quote)

I accept your interpretations.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Re the Dur & Ala (minor races #3 and #4): "The peoples of the two moons of Dur and Ala were involved in their own minor interplanetary war - before the Voinians arrived and crushed both sides. Now the peoples of Dur and Ala are united - in that they are both forced to toil ceaselessy in service of the Voinians."

Here it could be argued that the Dur and Ala were done a favor by having someone end their conflict for them, but one evil has basically been exchanged for another: war for slavery. Most importantly, we see yet again that the Voinians were (1) not invited into Dur & Ala territory, and (2) that their bondage is not willful.(/quote)

I agree with #2 but not #1. As far as we know, peace factions in both sides invited Voinians to crush their respective war parties. The question here is a question of timing. You were able to demonstrate with the first 2 cases that the Voinians came to Emalgha and Dieram so quickly and immediately conquered both that it was unlikely either had invited the Voinians. However, you didn't establish the same for this one.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Re humanity: We have already debated this. In our preceding exchanges you concede that the Voinians were the aggressors in the Voinian War, and that the UE were not in the wrong regarding how they responded. Invited? Somehow, I think we both doubt that . (/quote)

No arguments here.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
That took some time and the creation of a Voinian pilot to do, but it was worth it. At the end we have 2 examples in your favor (Tientu, Hinwar), and 4 examples in mine (Humans, Emalgha, Dieram, Dur & Ala). I think my argument comes out much stronger than yours for a couple reasons: One, there is more background info supporting it. Two, the two examples backing you up do so in that they don’t confirm my argument. However, they don’t do a whole lot to confirm yours either. With the Hinwar, it is technically possible that the situation is as you say it is. However, we need to look at the pattern of behavior. The background info of the other races (except for the Tientu) all contradict this line of thinking. Hence, it’s highly doubtful and illogical that the Voinians behave as you think they do towards the Hinwar, and behave the way I think they do towards everyone else. It has to be one way or the other. After this meticulous examination, in my opinion it is clear that the signs & evidence clearly serve to invalidate your contention that "they did invite Voinian rule" and that the majority of these races willingly serve as slaves. Now that the facts are clearly before us, I think that you will agree.

whew That was a loooong response! Moving on....(/quote)

1. As you can see, I'm contesting 2 of yours. For now, it is 3 (Humans, Emalgha, Dieram) v. 2 (Tientu, Hinwar) with Dur Ala under dispute.

2. I agree that on first reading, many of the descs appear to be in your favor.

3. I also agree that the 2 examples on "my side" do not contradict your view.

See Review for some overall summary and thoguhts so far.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
I feel that the huge response above debunks the idea that Voinian slavery is willful quite well. If you feel it doesn't, say why and I'll address it in the next response.(quote)

No it doesn't. None of your above responses dealt with the actual treatment of slaves. Nor did they disprove the possibility of Voinians enslaving their own (thus the possibility of something other than race-baseed slavery remains open).

(QUOTE)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
All I can say is that I've read every Voinain desc, and every one identifies the taskmasters as being Voinian--there's no mention of members of other races being taskmasters.(/quote)

Perhaps, though since nothing directly contradicts the possibility, it cannot be ruled out.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
You're right, I can't refut your Hinwar argument, but refer to the end of the huge response farther up.

Side note to extend the point made there: Even if the Hinwar did invite the Voinians, that still doesn't justify Voinian action. I don't think we can excuse the inexcusable by saying the victims brought it on themselves (another suicide bombing in Israel? Oh well, its because of the occupation....).

Oh, I'm not sure what JC stands for. Translation, please.(/quote)

I'll deal with this in the Review section.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Okay, that could possibly be true, so I'll concede that. However, there are other Voinian actions that were definitely done with the decision of the Voinian Government: the occupation of Emalghion to begin with, the treatment of the Dieram, and possibly the wiping out of Irid. The Government definitely bears full responsibility for their methods of invasion and occupation as well.(/quote)

I'll deal with this in the Review section.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Its my turn to say it: not so fast, there! Lets not justify a henious warcrime simply by saying that others have done it before; that fact doesn't make it any less wrong or immoral. By the way, while humans have done this on Earth in the past, there's no evidence that the UE Government has engaged in anything like it; this is in direct contrast to the Voinians.(/quote)

What I am suggesting is that biological warfare is simply "another form of warfare" (Which, we can all agree, warfare is in general, undesirable.) and the difference between the Voinians and the US example I cited is a difference in the degree of success.

(quote)Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Oooooh yeah, better believe I do. I love the show, and I've watched the movie that covers the story of the Earth/Minbari war. I know enough to know that the Earth/Minbari situation and the UE/Voinian situation aren't really all that similar. With the former the war started because a stupid human commander opened fire on a Minbari Cruiser, unknowlingly killing Dukat (the head of the Minbari Council) in the process. This ignited the fury of the Minbari, and they waged a holy war against EarthGov until the Battle of the Line, where....ah, but who needs a lesson in B5 history?

The UE/Voinian scenario is very different. You have first contact gone bad, but the similarity ends there. The Voinains attacked unprovoked and went to war against the UE with the intent of conquering them as they did with the others, and the UE defended itself against that threat....we know the rest of the story. (/quote)

Disagree!

In the introductory section, it talked about Voinians suddenly coming out of hyperspace and attacking humans.

It's quite possible that the humans encountered the Voinians first (a la Minbari and human) and fired first, but their exploration force was completely destroyed so that no one returned. Then the Voinians traced them back where they came from. To humans there, the Voinians certainly seemed as if they suddenly came out of nowhere and started firing. Since they didn't know the fate of the exploration force, they certainly didn't know that contact was already made, in the wrong way.

Review

What we have established so far (Or, points in agreement):

1. We have established that the Voinians are aggressively xenophobic (as opposed to "passively xenophobic")

2. We have established that the Voinians, perhaps as a result of #1, conquers and sometimes annihilates others.

It's amazing how many hundreds of words we exchanged and how little we have been able to establish. Let's take a look at the list of undecided:

1. Since conditions of first contact for Dur, Ala, Hinwar, Tientu, and even Earth are either disputed or "neutral", we have 2 examples in favor of your position, 2 neutral, and the others undecided. Mathematically, we have only 2/8 in favor of your point of view. I don't think we can discern any pattern when there isn't even a majority of cases in your favor.

2. We did not establish whether the Voinian slavery system is race-based. We did not even establish whether the system was compulsory or voluntary.

The points we have in agreement would be serious if not for the points we have been unable to establish. I agree that being aggressively xenophobic is not good, but we have only 2 out of 8 examples where that might've been a cause for an invasion. Not much of a pattern of bvehavior can be established. The possibility that the Voinians were provoked in the other cases still exists. All we can conclude is:

The Voinians may sometimes invade others as a function of their aggressive xenophobia.

I'm not sure that really qualifies as a serious indictment of the Voinian people.

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Sorry to interupt again. Where does the mission string for the Voinians end? I have blown up both Kelmaeon and Verril Prime, but the ending seemed kind of abrupt. Is that all there is? I'm not talking about plug-ins by the way, just the original EVoveride.

The ending is rather abrupt. If they've told you that you, as a human, have no part in their further plans, then it's over.

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David Arthur
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I'd love to join in the debate, but I've got time. Maybe this summer.

htjyang: You've got a lot of interesting ideas with regards to the Voinian Empire ("economic" slavery, legislatures, and so on) Why not make a plug-in about it? It would surely be interesting (And if you put yourself in it as a pers, all the liberals from Just Chat would download it just so they could (try) to blow you up! )

Anyway, I am pro-UE, though I do not believe the United Earth Federation to be impeccable nor infallible. The whole Huron thing, for example, is a legal, admisistrative, and constituional mess. Huron, an independant colony, accept s UE naval protection from the Renegades. Yet, since Huron's resources are being used to fight the Voinians, the planet somehow is under UE control (most logically, a full-fledged part of the UE.) Then Admiral McPherson comes along and gives it independence. If you check the bar after that mission, you find the Reform Party issues a complaint, asserting that McPherson has abused his power. So what's up with that?

Discuss. Or not.

God bless,

UE Patriot

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Quote

Originally posted by UE Patriot:
Then Admiral McPherson comes along and gives it independence. If you check the bar after that mission, you find the Reform Party issues a complaint, asserting that McPherson has abused his power. So what's up with that?

I think the Reform Party's problem is not with the independence of Huron per se, but rather that it isn't the job of military officers to make constitutional decisions without talking to the government and legislature about them. McPherson is never even shown to have consulted the inhabitants of Huron, and seems to have just assumed that the Free Huroners had the support of the people. I've certainly always seen that action as a sign that the UE military has ~far~ too much power.

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(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 05-12-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by David Arthur:
I think the Reform Party's problem is not with the independence of Huron per se, but rather that it isn't the job of military officers to make constitutional decisions without talking to the government and legislature about them. McPherson is never even shown to have consulted the inhabitants of Huron, and seems to have just assumed that the Free Huroners had the support of the people. I've certainly always seen that action as a sign that the UE military has ~far~ too much power.

Now it's David Arthur's turn to make the argument that the UE is actually a military dictatorship and we should all detest it.

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Tolkien on Lord of the Rings: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."

I always end up helping UE than the Voinians, so I doubted that I would be siding with them

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htjyang: I must disagree that it has not been established whether the Voinian slavery system is race-based, and whether it is compulsory or voluntary. I was writing to explain my point of view, but looking back, I see that UE Crusader has already made all of the points I wanted to make (and ironically, in very similar words).

Namely, the fact that Krotun is mentioned as housing "alien races" as slaves, even though the mention of "Voinian overseers" shows that the Voinians can breath the atmosphere, and that the people of Dur and Ala are made to "toil ceaselessly" -- and no mention of service to the Empire, but service to the Voinians (the species itself). Other points; that the Dieri have always defied Voinian rule (suggesting against voluntary slavery), Gualon's industrial power being balanced on a "native slave force" (note "native"), the fact that the minimal resistance on Gualon (which may have otherwise suggested voluntary slavery) is due to the guns of Gualon Station, and minor bar descriptions such as on Tientu - "none of the native slave races" - which at no point make reference to Voinian slaves, but rather alien ones.

Finally, any argument over this would have to come to Voina, where the arguments of the slavery being racial waver slightly. The planet Voina makes no reference to how it turned into a planet of heavy industry, which suggests there might have been Voinian slaves. It doesn't, however, make any reference to slaves, which is a major rarity among Voinian-controlled planets.

I would have said (and UEC also) that all these points suggest the Voinian's slavery system is racially based, and at the very least compulsory. It perhaps suggests that some none-Empire factions of the Voinian species were made slaves, if Monglek and Voina are brought into question, but otherwise it seems to prove that the slavery system is based upon a prejudice or numerous prejudices.

Anyway, if you want me to actually get involved in this debate, I'm happy to, but the above is just a summary of UEC's points, and not my own (although I did come to these conclusions myself, UEC has stated every one of them).

UEC; sorry I couldn't have joined in the debate earlier, but I really didn't have the time to do so. It seems you've handled yourself well, anyway. <grin> I'd suggest if you want to find any more evidence, you check through the Voinian mission string -- I can't at the moment.

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-Lyat Esponer Corsair

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Originally posted by htjyang:
Now it's David Arthur's turn to make the argument that the UE is actually a military dictatorship and we should all detest it.

I actually did at one point compile a list of all the incidences I could find of UE military misconduct. I should see if I can find it.

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David Arthur
(url="http://"http://davidarthur.evula.net/")davidarthur.evula.net(/url): MissionComputer and the Talon plug-in
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Probably, (considering that I am usually in Igadzra space), it would be UE. But they hate me too because i killed one of their ships by accident with a forklift killing a pirate, so I shoot both, (not to mention Zidagar and Azdgari too)

-May the plug be with you.

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Originally posted by SilverDragon:
Namely, the fact that Krotun is mentioned as housing "alien races" as slaves,

That proves nothing. It may simply by a matter of translation.

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Originally posted by SilverDragon:
even though the mention of "Voinian overseers" shows that the Voinians can breath the atmosphere, and that the people of Dur and Ala are made to "toil ceaselessly"

So? They work hard, that's all. Nothing suspicious here.

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Originally posted by SilverDragon:
-- and no mention of service to the Empire, but service to the Voinians (the species itself).

What empire is it? The Voinian Empire. The empire was primarily run by Voinians, just as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was mainly ran by Austrians and Hungarians. But that didn't mean the empire had a race-based hierarchy.

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Originally posted by SilverDragon:
Other points; that the Dieri have always defied Voinian rule (suggesting against voluntary slavery),(...) the fact that the minimal resistance on Gualon (which may have otherwise suggested voluntary slavery) is due to the guns of Gualon Station, and minor bar descriptions such as on Tientu - "none of the native slave races" - which at no point make reference to Voinian slaves, but rather alien ones.

Not necessarily. They may simply be ungrateful ingrates who do not appreciate the binding nature of the contracts they signed.

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Originally posted by SilverDragon:
Gualon's industrial power being balanced on a "native slave force" (note "native"),

Fairly meaningless. Am I supposed to think the Voinians should've transported slaves from other races there just so they can avoid the stigma of a race-based slavery? Even if they do, I'm sure you'll simply color it as simply another instance where the evil Voinians seek to oppress other races by uprooting them from their homes.

You don't see US companies moving overseas and then hire US workers to move there as well, do you? Of course the Voinians used local labor. It's much more convenient.

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Originally posted by SilverDragon:
Finally, any argument over this would have to come to Voina, where the arguments of the slavery being racial waver slightly. The planet Voina makes no reference to how it turned into a planet of heavy industry, which suggests there might have been Voinian slaves. It doesn't, however, make any reference to slaves, which is a major rarity among Voinian-controlled planets.

Maybe they have such reverence for their homeworld that they don't allow any slaves to set foot on it?

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(url="http://"http://www.reverseroe.com/reverseroe/")http://www.reverseroe.com/reverseroe/(/url)
The Moderators: Standing Between the Darkness and the Light, between the candle and the Star.
Tolkien on Lord of the Rings: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."

Is this topic still active?

-May the plug be with you

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Is this topic still active?

It will be. I've been insanely busy and haven't had a lot of time to hang around lately, but I'm not through answering htjyang yet.

UEC

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