This is similar to Captain Carnotaur's "Rebel Memo". I am here to try and
prove that the Zidagar are the best Strand. Please do not post here just to
argue - make your own topics for the Azdgari or Igadzra if you want. Posting
here is for detailed information on how the Zidagar are the best Strand.

THE CAUSE FACTOR
Think about it. You know how simple it is. The Azdgari raid other races, and
are widely known for attacking almost anything - quoted by the Zidagar, I admit,
but quite believable if you think about it. The Azdgari are raiders, and as we
should know by our ethics, although raiding is effective in combat, it is not
morally right.

Take the Middle Ages - raiding in that time was dishonourable, a disgrace. Take
modern day - raiding is thought of as something "the bad guys" do. If you hear,
"a successful raid" on the news as you walk into the room, you know it isn't
talking about a brave military unit, it's talking about "the bad guys", or the
rebels. Indeed, if the Azdgari were rebels, this might be understandable. But they
aren't - they are, or had the chance to be, and organised government. Instead they
raid.

Now take the Igadzra. They are paranoid - they dislike even those who help them.
After someone has done an awful lot for them, they still show you no respect and
treat you almost like an enemy. They are silent - silent killers, who pounce on
who, attacking apparently for no reason, opening fire with weapons which attack
at a long range. Perhaps if we do what we did for the Azdgari here.

In the Middle Ages once more, attacking at long range was dishonourable and,
although sometimes necessary, treated with disgust by "brave" knights (I know
this term in reality isn't entirely true, but that is not the point). Now find
a modern day version - nuclear warfare. This also is not considered honourable
and good - it is considered a bad thing by most.

Now, combine the SAE modules, the land mass, the paranoia and silence, and the
laser weapons. What do you get? Russia. Russia have a huge nuclear arsenal, an
enormous amount of land, they refuse to talk to people about problems, and they
are experimenting in the production of large laser-type weapons. Now, I know this
is extremely controversial - but when you put it that way, can Russia be classed
as "the good guys", or "the bad guys". Bear in mind that Igadzra are Russia at
war, and much worse, so I'm not slagging off Russia here.

Finally, take the Zidagar. They use small ships - and when you think of the good
guys do you imagine huge warships, or ships you can open fire on for a year and
never defeat? I don't. I imagine smaller vessels - and may I say thus braver
ones?

Now, on to the Middle Ages comparison again. The knights of that time (not
including Byzantine Cataphracts, who weren't really knights) did not use long
range weapons. They fought at close range, bravely, fighting off their opponents
with weapons like the broadsword and lance. The Zidagar are the same, using
the phased beamer in place of the lance.

Now, look into modern day. The closest comparison would be Great Britain, at least
to my knowledge. Britain have "smaller" military units, "smaller" land mass - they
have allies who can be described as more peaceful. Britain was also famous for
it's knights in the past, may I point out. Britain DOES have nuclear weapons, but
far less than other countries. Finally, both the Zidagar and British have made
mistakes. Britain made many in it's time - and Zidagar might have lost it by
using biological weapons on the Azdgari, but both were provoked. Britain by the
Vikings and other attackers, Zidagar more directly by the Azdgari themselves.

Finally, the Zidagar are bravery personified on the game, and that cannot be
doubted. They hold Outpost Terapin, although greatly outnumbered. They compose
songs about their dead friends, they cry, and shout, displaying their emotions.
Can you, in all honesty, say that a race that has even leaders who display
their emotions so much, and think only of the good of Zidagar itself, can be
"bad"?

THE SHIP FACTOR
This is perhaps where the Zidagar are most ignored - and shouldn't be. I will
give you some basic figures just to show you what I mean:

Igazra - 15 million
Zidara - 5.5 million

I have often seen two Zidaras beat an Igazra, and sometimes three are forced to
handle it - but three handle it with ease. This obviously shows that the Zidara
is the better allround ship for combat.

Next:

Zidara - 5.5 million
Igadzra Arada - 2 million (considering upgrades)

This conflict is slightly closer, obviously. May I first increase both figures
to result in 4 Zidaras (22 million) and 11 Igadzra Aradas.

2 Zidagar fighters can easily destroy an Igadzra Arada. That means that straight
away 4 Igadzra Aradas are out of the picture.

7 Igadzra Aradas against 4 Zidaras:

Zidara has 2 phase turrets-----------Crescent Strength of 4
Igadzra has 3 swivel phase-----------Crescent Strength of 1.5

Igadzra has far under 100 shields
Zidara has 180 shields

Now, quite a bit of this statistically may not entirely prove the outcome. However,
please bear in mind that the Zidagar fighters from before are NOT ruled out -
in most of the conflicts both fighters would come out alive, and in the rest one
Zidagar fighter would be defeated, which still leaves another one.

Now, SAE are admittedly strong. But, are they truly strong enough? I don't think
so. The first Igadzra Arada would fire off about 3-6 SAEs before it was defeated,
and the second perhaps a few more. That would pull the Zidara down to critical
shields, BUT, on the second or third pass of the second Igadzra Arada it would
be defeated, at about the same time the Zidara's shields dropped to critical. This
is not entirely proved, so anyone can feel free to test it - please no posting
"that's a load of rubbish!".

Next:
Zidagar Fighter - 1.5 million (considering upgrades)
Azdara - 1.5 million

This part will no doubt spring a large amount of anger. The Azdara has 19 shields.
The Zidagar Fighter has about 30. Now, how often have you seen these two fight
one on one?

I haven't. But..... When they made their first pass at each other, the Azdara would
open fire with 3 swivel phase cannons at a ship with 30 shields. The Zidagar
Fighter would open fire with 3 swivel phase cannons and a phase beamer at a ship
with 19 shields. The firing would last between 1/2 a second and a second.

In that time, would you ask yourself how much the Azdara is going to recharge?
About 10% at most. It'll take around 15 bolts of phase fire, which do about 5
damage, on 190 shields. That comes to 75, or 7.5. Then the phased beamer, which
although I cannot calculate off hand I'd assume would pull it up to around 12
damage on 19, nearly 2/3.

The Azdara would do about 7.5 on 30, less than 1/3. Now, depending on how wide
it's circle is, which depends on a) how far it travelled to reach the Zidagar
Fighter, how much damage it actually took, and thus how much impact, and c)
the position of the Zidagar Fighter after the pass has been made, the Azdara
will recharge by between 50% and 100%. The Zidagar Fighter would increase between
20% and 40%. Let's say the lowest for both of them.

19 - 12 + 10 = 17 --------------------------- 30 - 7.5 + 6 = 28.5
NEXT PASS
17 - 12 + 10 = 15 --------------------------- 28.5 - 7.5 + 6 = 27
NEXT PASS
15 - 12 + 10 = 13 --------------------------- 27 - 7.5 + 6 = 25.5
NEXT PASS
13 - 12 + 10 = 11 --------------------------- 25.5 - 7.5 + 6 = 24
NEXT PASS
11 - 12 = DEFEATED -------------------------- 24 - 7.5 + 6 = 22.5

I know this depends on short passes, and in actual fact the Azdara would more
often got WIDER passes, but may I please bring to your attention that the Azdara
is the Azdgari's pride and joy, and the pride and joy of the Zidagar is not the
Zidagar Fighter, but the Zidara.

Next:

Zidara - 5.5 million
Azdara - 1.5 million

First of all, we must try to times this up. Sadly, this doesn't work with any
degree of ease, so let's put it at 4 Azdaras against 1 Zidara.

The Zidara launches fighters. As before, pin down 2 Zidagar fighters to one Azdara -
the Zidagar Fighters would win without losses, so that takes 1 Azdara out.

Next, imagine 3 Azdaras attacking a Zidara. One would fall instantly to a dispersal
rocket / phase fire combination. The Zidara's 180 shields would meanwhile drop
by (this is with 15 phase shots per Azdara) 22.5 per pass. That means it could
withstand over 7 passes - easily enough time to destroy all the Azdaras.

And don't forget that the Zidagar Fighters would still be around to help, too.

THE TACTICAL FACTOR
The Azdgari are penned up against the side of a galaxy - they cannot expand by Council
law. The Igadzra DO have space to the south, but no planets, and they cannot afford to
fight the Strandless, nor can they expand because a) most of that space is Crescent Rim,
and thus they are not "allowed" to expand past, and the Proxima Nebula gets in the way.

The Zidagar, on the other hand, have several nice planets near to them, booming trade with
the Miranu, enormous space to the southwest, prospects to ally with the United Earth (Zidagar are friend with the Miranu, Miranu are friends with United Earth) which of course means more armour technology.

They also have very well placed outposts. Saffera - maintains trade with Miranu and
protects western front. Terapin - protected by Gadzair, as enemies must go around Gadzair
to get to Terapin. Neholl - protected on all sides, and excellent supportive base for
Terapin.

Next, Zidagar. The system of Azdgari is open to attack through the Marks system. The
system of Igadzra can be reached by passing through only 1 other Igadzra system - Nujji,
Ragni or Afen, or even Norhis.

The system of Zidagar, on the other hand, must be approached through 2 Zidagar systems
or more, OR through Miranu space. This means it has more defence.

Azdgari don't have rich, fertile lands. Igadzra have them everywhere, making it hard
to defend "economy" bases - even ships cannot defend against a well timed attack. Zidagar
land is split between military bases and "economy" bases, and often the "ecomony" bases
are defended by a military base that must be passed through the reach it. Also, the
Zidagar's main source of money - the Miranu, are well defended in positon by the Zidagar.

---------------------------------------------

That's all for now.

------------------
Fear not the dragon,
Fear not the wolf,
Fear not the warship,
Fear my Crescent Fighter.

(This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited 05-07-2001).)

Quote

Originally posted by SilverDragon:
**This is similar to Captain Carnotaur's "Rebel Memo". I am here to try and
prove that the Zidagar are the best Strand. Please do not post here just to
argue - make your own topics for the Azdgari or Igadzra if you want. Posting
here is for detailed information on how the Zidagar are the best Strand.

THE CAUSE FACTOR
Think about it. You know how simple it is. The Azdgari raid other races, and
are widely known for attacking almost anything - quoted by the Zidagar, I admit,
but quite believable if you think about it. The Azdgari are raiders, and as we
should know by our ethics, although raiding is effective in combat, it is not
morally right.

Take the Middle Ages - raiding in that time was dishonourable, a disgrace. Take
modern day - raiding is thought of as something "the bad guys" do. If you hear,
"a successful raid" on the news as you walk into the room, you know it isn't
talking about a brave military unit, it's talking about "the bad guys", or the
rebels. Indeed, if the Azdgari were rebels, this might be understandable. But they
aren't - they are, or had the chance to be, and organised government. Instead they
raid.

Now take the Igadzra. They are paranoid - they dislike even those who help them.
After someone has done an awful lot for them, they still show you no respect and
treat you almost like an enemy. They are silent - silent killers, who pounce on
who, attacking apparently for no reason, opening fire with weapons which attack
at a long range. Perhaps if we do what we did for the Azdgari here.

In the Middle Ages once more, attacking at long range was dishonourable and,
although sometimes necessary, treated with disgust by "brave" knights (I know
this term in reality isn't entirely true, but that is not the point). Now find
a modern day version - nuclear warfare. This also is not considered honourable
and good - it is considered a bad thing by most.

Now, combine the SAE modules, the land mass, the paranoia and silence, and the
laser weapons. What do you get? Russia. Russia have a huge nuclear arsenal, an
enormous amount of land, they refuse to talk to people about problems, and they
are experimenting in the production of large laser-type weapons. Now, I know this
is extremely controversial - but when you put it that way, can Russia be classed
as "the good guys", or "the bad guys". Bear in mind that Igadzra are Russia at
war, and much worse, so I'm not slagging off Russia here.

Finally, take the Zidagar. They use small ships - and when you think of the good
guys do you imagine huge warships, or ships you can open fire on for a year and
never defeat? I don't. I imagine smaller vessels - and may I say thus braver
ones?

Now, on to the Middle Ages comparison again. The knights of that time (not
including Byzantine Cataphracts, who weren't really knights) did not use long
range weapons. They fought at close range, bravely, fighting off their opponents
with weapons like the broadsword and lance. The Zidagar are the same, using
the phased beamer in place of the lance.

Now, look into modern day. The closest comparison would be Great Britain, at least
to my knowledge. Britain have "smaller" military units, "smaller" land mass - they
have allies who can be described as more peaceful. Britain was also famous for
it's knights in the past, may I point out. Britain DOES have nuclear weapons, but
far less than other countries. Finally, both the Zidagar and British have made
mistakes. Britain made many in it's time - and Zidagar might have lost it by
using biological weapons on the Azdgari, but both were provoked. Britain by the
Vikings and other attackers, Zidagar more directly by the Azdgari themselves.

Finally, the Zidagar are bravery personified on the game, and that cannot be
doubted. They hold Outpost Terapin, although greatly outnumbered. They compose
songs about their dead friends, they cry, and shout, displaying their emotions.
Can you, in all honesty, say that a race that has even leaders who display
their emotions so much, and think only of the good of Zidagar itself, can be
"bad"?

THE SHIP FACTOR
This is perhaps where the Zidagar are most ignored - and shouldn't be. I will
give you some basic figures just to show you what I mean:

Igazra - 15 million
Zidara - 5.5 million

I have often seen two Zidaras beat an Igazra, and sometimes three are forced to
handle it - but three handle it with ease. This obviously shows that the Zidara
is the better allround ship for combat.

Next:

Zidara - 5.5 million
Igadzra Arada - 2 million (considering upgrades)

This conflict is slightly closer, obviously. May I first increase both figures
to result in 4 Zidaras (22 million) and 11 Igadzra Aradas.

2 Zidagar fighters can easily destroy an Igadzra Arada. That means that straight
away 4 Igadzra Aradas are out of the picture.

7 Igadzra Aradas against 4 Zidaras:

Zidara has 2 phase turrets-----------Crescent Strength of 4
Igadzra has 3 swivel phase-----------Crescent Strength of 1.5

Igadzra has far under 100 shields
Zidara has 1800 shields

Now, quite a bit of this statistically may not entirely prove the outcome. However,
please bear in mind that the Zidagar fighters from before are NOT ruled out -
in most of the conflicts both fighters would come out alive, and in the rest one
Zidagar fighter would be defeated, which still leaves another one.

Now, SAE are admittedly strong. But, are they truly strong enough? I don't think
so. The first Igadzra Arada would fire off about 3-6 SAEs before it was defeated,
and the second perhaps a few more. That would pull the Zidara down to critical
shields, BUT, on the second or third pass of the second Igadzra Arada it would
be defeated, at about the same time the Zidara's shields dropped to critical. This
is not entirely proved, so anyone can feel free to test it - please no posting
"that's a load of rubbish!".

Next:
Zidagar Fighter - 1.5 million (considering upgrades)
Azdara - 1.5 million

This part will no doubt spring a large amount of anger. The Azdara has 19 shields.
The Zidagar Fighter has about 30. Now, how often have you seen these two fight
one on one?

I haven't. But..... When they made their first pass at each other, the Azdara would
open fire with 3 swivel phase cannons at a ship with 30 shields. The Zidagar
Fighter would open fire with 3 swivel phase cannons and a phase beamer at a ship
with 19 shields. The firing would last between 1/2 a second and a second.

In that time, would you ask yourself how much the Azdara is going to recharge?
About 10% at most. It'll take around 15 bolts of phase fire, which do about 5
damage, on 190 shields. That comes to 75, or 7.5. Then the phased beamer, which
although I cannot calculate off hand I'd assume would pull it up to around 12
damage on 19, nearly 2/3.

The Azdara would do about 7.5 on 30, less than 1/3. Now, depending on how wide
it's circle is, which depends on a) how far it travelled to reach the Zidagar
Fighter, how much damage it actually took, and thus how much impact, and c)
the position of the Zidagar Fighter after the pass has been made, the Azdara
will recharge by between 50% and 100%. The Zidagar Fighter would increase between
20% and 40%. Let's say the lowest for both of them.

19 - 12 + 10 = 17 --------------------------- 30 - 7.5 + 6 = 28.5
NEXT PASS
17 - 12 + 10 = 15 --------------------------- 28.5 - 7.5 + 6 = 27
NEXT PASS
15 - 12 + 10 = 13 --------------------------- 27 - 7.5 + 6 = 25.5
NEXT PASS
13 - 12 + 10 = 11 --------------------------- 25.5 - 7.5 + 6 = 24
NEXT PASS
11 - 12 = DEFEATED -------------------------- 24 - 7.5 + 6 = 22.5

I know this depends on short passes, and in actual fact the Azdara would more
often got WIDER passes, but may I please bring to your attention that the Azdara
is the Azdgari's pride and joy, and the pride and joy of the Zidagar is not the
Zidagar Fighter, but the Zidara.

Next:

Zidara - 5.5 million
Azdara - 1.5 million

First of all, we must try to times this up. Sadly, this doesn't work with any
degree of ease, so let's put it at 4 Azdaras against 1 Zidara.

The Zidara launches fighters. As before, pin down 2 Zidagar fighters to one Azdara -
the Zidagar Fighters would win without losses, so that takes 1 Azdara out.

Next, imagine 3 Azdaras attacking a Zidara. One would fall instantly to a dispersal
rocket / phase fire combination. The Zidara's 180 shields would meanwhile drop
by (this is with 15 phase shots per Azdara) 22.5 per pass. That means it could
withstand over 7 passes - easily enough time to destroy all the Azdaras.

And don't forget that the Zidagar Fighters would still be around to help, too.

THE TACTICAL FACTOR
The Azdgari are penned up against the side of a galaxy - they cannot expand by Council
law. The Igadzra DO have space to the south, but no planets, and they cannot afford to
fight the Strandless, nor can they expand because a) most of that space is Crescent Rim,
and thus they are not "allowed" to expand past, and the Proxima Nebula gets in the way.

The Zidagar, on the other hand, have several nice planets near to them, booming trade with
the Miranu, enormous space to the southwest, prospects to ally with the United Earth (Zidagar are friend with the Miranu, Miranu are friends with United Earth) which of course means more armour technology.

They also have very well placed outposts. Saffera - maintains trade with Miranu and
protects western front. Terapin - protected by Gadzair, as enemies must go around Gadzair
to get to Terapin. Neholl - protected on all sides, and excellent supportive base for
Terapin.

Next, Zidagar. The system of Azdgari is open to attack through the Marks system. The
system of Igadzra can be reached by passing through only 1 other Igadzra system - Nujji,
Ragni or Afen, or even Norhis.

The system of Zidagar, on the other hand, must be approached through 2 Zidagar systems
or more, OR through Miranu space. This means it has more defence.

Azdgari don't have rich, fertile lands. Igadzra have them everywhere, making it hard
to defend "economy" bases - even ships cannot defend against a well timed attack. Zidagar
land is split between military bases and "economy" bases, and often the "ecomony" bases
are defended by a military base that must be passed through the reach it. Also, the
Zidagar's main source of money - the Miranu, are well defended in positon by the Zidagar.

---------------------------------------------

That's all for now.

**

I'm impressed. That's some pretty good comparisons, although if you allowed people to argue their opinions you'd be flamed by lots of Azdgari and Igadzra fans.....Not that I dislike the Zidagar or anything (hell I don't; they're my favorite Strand!). ALso, when you compare the Zidagar/Igadzra/Azdgari with the 'Middle Ages' you're referring to the medival times in Britain (BLEH).

------------------
Why settle for a $3 pound of pork meat, when you can get up to 50+ pounds of human meat free?

(This message has been edited by ESPilot (edited 05-05-2001).)

Quote

In the Middle Ages once more, attacking at long range was dishonourable and,
although sometimes necessary, treated with disgust by "brave" knights (I know
this term in reality isn't entirely true, but that is not the point). Now find
a modern day version - nuclear warfare. This also is not considered honourable
and good - it is considered a bad thing by most.

Now, combine the SAE modules, the land mass, the paranoia and silence, and the
laser weapons. What do you get? Russia. Russia have a huge nuclear arsenal, an
enormous amount of land, they refuse to talk to people about problems, and they
are experimenting in the production of large laser-type weapons. Now, I know this
is extremely controversial - but when you put it that way, can Russia be classed
as "the good guys", or "the bad guys". Bear in mind that Igadzra are Russia at
war, and much worse, so I'm not slagging off Russia here.

Before anythign else, very cool post. I also like the Zidigar the most out of all the strands. They were the first strand I completed, and I like how they treat you. They actually treat you with respect and don't play games with you. Their ships are also pretty cool. I like the phase disruption beams, too bad they eat up too much fuel.. but ohh well..

Now, just in response to this small part of of your post (even though my post will probably get some flamming resposes back) I would like to remind you what country is the only country to ever drop a nuclear bomb (or should I say 2) on another. Many people might argure, it was necessary to end the war with Japan, blah blah blah... but tell me this. Why 2? The answer is pretty simple, one was Uranium and the other was Plutonium and they wanted to see the differences with the bombs. Even the targets give away that this was a test by the US. Why choose Hiroshima.. the old Japanese capital that had NO military industry what so ever. It was just a beautiful city that nothing to do with the war. Nagasaki, well that had some industry, but still, both targets seem like a choice for an experiment. Guess the US wanted to see what the bombs would really do. They were supposed to kill about 25,000 (that was the estimate of.. ahh can't remeber his name, one of the very influetial scientists who first came up with the idea). Guess the bombs passed the experiment with flying colors.

Well now I prepare to get flammed. I'm pretty sure everthing I stated there (excluding my opinion that the nuclear bombs were dropped more as a test more than anything else) is true, but correct me if I made any mistakes. And yes I have read a lot about world war 2.. about 10 full length books (about 500 pages each) and many other articles (most of them dealing with the war in Europe though) so my opinion does have information to back it up.

------------------
"There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."
-Pink Floyd

(This message has been edited by dcarvy (edited 05-05-2001).)

Very nice SilverDragon. You expressed my view on the subject except I didn't draw the brilliant comparision of the Middle Ages. I had read that though.

By the way, Neutrons and Ions are the same except in reverse. I think it has zero electricity and probably zero mass. I'll talk to you about it on AIM.

------------------
"That is called a droid decoy. This is called a trap. And I'm calling you dead"

(quote)Originally posted by dcarvy:
**Before anythign else, very cool post. I also like the Zidigar the most out of all the strands. They were the first strand I completed, and I like how they treat you. They actually treat you with respect and don't play games with you. Their ships are also pretty cool. I like the phase disruption beams, too bad they eat up too much fuel.. but ohh well..:). Of course I'd change the refuse to talk, to refuse to talk about their problems only other's problems.

Dragon

------------------
**

And now if the opposition would take the floor...

Heheh, you spent too much time writing that. Get out of the house a bit more. Apart from that though it was kinda cool. I like Azdara's better than zidara's though.
The Azdgari used to be the best, an Azdara would beat like 2 Zidagar fighters before the update, now the zidagar fighters are too powerfull and they lose. Plus everyone has AB's so their speed advantage is cut down a bit. The Zidara is also the easiest to kill the dreadnaught in. I like it.

Oh and the zidagar are definantly the british: They complain all the time ;)!!

~A~
"Become a Pirate"

------------------
"How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

That must have taken you ages
I just have to disagree on 1 point: The Miranu. A lot of the Igadzra missions are about Igadzra's good trading relationship with the Miranu, and how the Zidagar keep taking out the Miranu ships. Tt is the Igadzra that have the good relationship, not the Zidagar. Feel free to contradict me.

------------------
"Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things, well known fact."
-Granny Weatherwax

Yeah, America was my first thought, but I didn't want to get flamed.

And, I didn't spend that long on it, actually. 30 minutes or so........ And I
had loads of ship data websites open!

------------------
Fear not the dragon,
Fear not the wolf,
Fear not the warship,
Fear my Crescent Fighter.

(quote)Originally posted by Azdara:
**Oh and the zidagar are definantly the british: They complain all the time:)

------------------
Why settle for a $3 pound of pork meat, when you can get up to 50+ pounds of human meat free?
**

Point 1 about the U.S.. We did not have a real standing army until after WWII. That is how we got caught unprepared in the pacific to a certain degree. Second, the fact that we had such a large nuc arsenal is because we could not fight the Soviets in a land war in Europe. The U.S. was outnumbered horribly and her allies were still recovering from WWII. Just because the U.S. has alot of land does not mean jack. Has anyone else heard the quote that the sun never set on the British Empire? Was that because it controled most of africa and various portions of asia and the pacific rim.. Hmmmmmm. Third the bombs were necessary. The U.S. did not blow them up for the heck of it. The casulties in Japan were going to make the bombs look like drops in the bucket. The island campaign was absolutely bloodly and the ability of the U.S. to take any prisoners was a large part of this. The estimate at the time was that an invasion of Japan would cause 1,000,000 U.S. casulties. Many more Japanese would die also. Forth, there were translational problems that led to the second drop. Yes the U.S. was trying to send a point. However it can be argued that the point was to the Soviets who were about to enter the war agaist Japan. The hand writing was on the wall alreadly about Germany and now there was about to be another split country. I would also like to remind everyone that the U.S. rebuilt the entire Japanese infrastructure. Oh and it is pretty easy to balence the budget when you do not have a military like Japan does. I just want to make the point that a lot of the things that people say they do not like about the U.S. was forced upon them. Now I would also like to say something about the Soviets at that time. They just like the U.S. had been suprise attacked by other countries. Why is it such a suprise to everyone that they were so paranoid about one another. It was a viscious cycle that thankfully is ending.

Point 1 about the U.S.. We did not have a real standing army until after WWII. That is how we got caught unprepared in the pacific to a certain degree. Second, the fact that we had such a large nuc arsenal is because we could not fight the Soviets in a land war in Europe. The U.S. was outnumbered horribly and her allies were still recovering from WWII. Just because the U.S. has alot of land does not mean jack. Has anyone else heard the quote that the sun never set on the British Empire? Was that because it controled most of africa and various portions of asia and the pacific rim.. Hmmmmmm. Third the bombs were necessary. The U.S. did not blow them up for the heck of it. The casulties in Japan were going to make the bombs look like drops in the bucket. The island campaign was absolutely bloodly and the ability of the U.S. to take any prisoners was a large part of this. The estimate at the time was that an invasion of Japan would cause 1,000,000 U.S. casulties. Many more Japanese would die also. Forth, there were translational problems that led to the second drop. Yes the U.S. was trying to send a point. However it can be argued that the point was to the Soviets who were about to enter the war agaist Japan. The hand writing was on the wall alreadly about Germany and now there was about to be another split country. I would also like to remind everyone that the U.S. rebuilt the entire Japanese infrastructure. Oh and it is pretty easy to balence the budget when you do not have a military like Japan does. I just want to make the point that a lot of the things that people say they do not like about the U.S. was forced upon them. Now I would also like to say something about the Soviets at that time. They just like the U.S. had been suprise attacked by other countries. Why is it such a suprise to everyone that they were so paranoid about one another. It was a viscious cycle that thankfully is ending. A final thing need to be said about "good guys". Good guys do not bail out on their allies. Ask any Austrailian about Galipolli and they will tell you how they feel about Britain. Ask that same person about Guadal Canal and the Coral sea and they will tell you how they feel about americans.

Please disregard the first post, and any spelling or capitalization errors in the second post.

Quote

Originally posted by Jubee on Diff Com:
Point 1 about the U.S.. We did not have a real standing army until after WWII. That is how we got caught unprepared in the pacific to a certain degree. Second, the fact that we had such a large nuc arsenal is because we could not fight the Soviets in a land war in Europe. The U.S. was outnumbered horribly and her allies were still recovering from WWII. Just because the U.S. has alot of land does not mean jack. Has anyone else heard the quote that the sun never set on the British Empire? Was that because it controled most of africa and various portions of asia and the pacific rim.. Hmmmmmm. Third the bombs were necessary. The U.S. did not blow them up for the heck of it. The casulties in Japan were going to make the bombs look like drops in the bucket. The island campaign was absolutely bloodly and the ability of the U.S. to take any prisoners was a large part of this. The estimate at the time was that an invasion of Japan would cause 1,000,000 U.S. casulties. Many more Japanese would die also. Forth, there were translational problems that led to the second drop. Yes the U.S. was trying to send a point. However it can be argued that the point was to the Soviets who were about to enter the war agaist Japan. The hand writing was on the wall alreadly about Germany and now there was about to be another split country. I would also like to remind everyone that the U.S. rebuilt the entire Japanese infrastructure. Oh and it is pretty easy to balence the budget when you do not have a military like Japan does. I just want to make the point that a lot of the things that people say they do not like about the U.S. was forced upon them. Now I would also like to say something about the Soviets at that time. They just like the U.S. had been suprise attacked by other countries. Why is it such a suprise to everyone that they were so paranoid about one another. It was a viscious cycle that thankfully is ending. A final thing need to be said about "good guys". Good guys do not bail out on their allies. Ask any Austrailian about Galipolli and they will tell you how they feel about Britain. Ask that same person about Guadal Canal and the Coral sea and they will tell you how they feel about americans.

I still don't buy into it was necessary. The US only had 300,000 military losses in the whole war while Japan took 1.25 million. Maybe drop one bomb but 2. The 2 bombs and of different type makes it look more like an experiment and that still does not explain the choice of the targets. When you also look at how Germany was bombed and the civilian targets that were carpet bombed there you start to think about the US's choice of targets. Just as an interesting fact, the US dropped more bombs on Germany in the last 3 months of the war than Germany dropped in the whole span of the war, and some of those bombs were on non-military targets like Dresden. In the fire bombing of Dresden. more people died than in either of the atomic bombs and what was there to bomb in Dresden; nothing more than people. Just bomb it to kill all the people or what?? Too bad the assasination plot on Hitler failed becuase many of these things might have been avoided

Maybe the bombs were a message to Russia, but just so you know, Russia did not have nuclear capability till 1949 or 1950 (can't remeber which). And when you start looking at how the US treated its allies, yes it was very helpful to the British and saved them, but it never trusted or helped Russia that much. When Germany invaded, the US was reluctant to send anything to Russia becuase the US thought Russia would fall so anything they sent would later be captured by the Germans (this was of course to to the abysmal defeats the Russians suffered at the beginning of the war with Germany and their terrible losses when taking part of Poland when Germany and Russia decided to split Poland in half). The US did rebuild Japan but that was to get a good economic market for their products. I guess you can still consider that something very good even though it was for economic reasons.

Anyway, it still is a matter of opinion. I still greatly disagree with the 2 nuclear bombs and think the justification given is quite weak and when I look at other things like the fire bombing of Dresden I just start to wonder. We could argue this for days (it is a quite fascinating topic, or atleast I think so), hopefully the world has learned form the mistakes of this war (yes there were many and I consider the 2 atomic bombs and Dresden to be some of the mistakes that should go along with the holocaust and hitler's idea of the aryan race being superior to all others, ect). Well anyway, hopefully I wont get in trouble for posting off topic. One thing led to another and here we are discussing world war II. We should probably blame Silver Dragon for posting interesting posts that get us (or me atleast) in trouble.

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"There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."
-Pink Floyd

To dcarvy:

There is a big difference between an island hopping campaign and an invasion of Japan proper. The death toll would have been horendous and the soviets were going to be in on the invasion also. The message was not about atomic bombs. The U.S. did not trust Stalin and the amount of soviet troops in Germany and Europe was amazing. There is not much of a doubt that any land war in Europe was going to won by the soviets. The targets had to have not been bombed true. That was the reason why they were picked. The U.S. did not choose the religious center of Japan. The name escapes me. The translation between the U.S. and Japan also made the U.S. think that after the first bomb Japan was going to continue to fight. This was a mistake because that was not what was meant. Once London got bombed the gloves came off in the bombing campaigns in Europe. Don't forget the chemical weapons atrocites conducted by the Japanese on the Chinese. (Side note)

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Why are there no maroon ships?

Hey! The Zidagar aren't the British, they're the French! They have little French sayings all the time, they call each other "mon ami" and they write poetry and get all pomp and circumstance all the time. I think the designers had a French idea going on when they created the Zidagar. By the way, the French are far more famous for knights than Britain. The Arthurian Romances were penned in French, Sir Lancelot du Lac, King Leo deGrance and Guenivere were all French; the very word "chivalry" is French (chevalarie, literally "horsemanship"), the Knights Templar were almost all French, almost all of our Romantic era faerie tales are French (Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast). Try to erase your modern day image of a unwashed, big-nosed, mousy, rude guy whose country is always getting its ass kicked and think more historically (Louis XIV, Joan of Arc and Napoleon). Even the knights in Britain were French imports (i.e., the Normans - there were no Saxon "knights" to speak of pre-1066).

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The religious center of Japan, I think, is Kyoto (the imperial city of the mirror, the pearl and the sword). It's essentially swallowed up in Tokyo now, like Yokohama. To have nuked Kyoto would have meant killing the Emperor and the imperial family. We'd STILL be at war if that had happened. Nagasaki was a major war industry city, but we didn't drop the bomb on the factory center, we dropped it on downtown. Hiroshima had only marginal strategic value, and again we dropped it on the neighborhoods, not the factories. We should remember that the Atom bomb was a feeble ancestor of the modern weapons, yet it killed 100,000 Japanese non-combatant civilians. After the first bomb, Japan indicated that it would surrender, but waffled on the "unconditional" part. The intent was clear, we wanted to terrorize Japan into an unconditional surrender and we wanted revenge for Pearl Harbor. It was also acceptable then to be racist against "Japs," and we were.

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Err......... Well, I'm very sorry for starting a heated debate, but can we please
talk about the matter at hand?

I.E. How the Zidagar are the best, what you think of my post, in what way do you
want to rip my head off - that type of thing.

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Fear not the dragon,
Fear not the wolf,
Fear not the warship,
Fear my Crescent Fighter.

Quote

Originally posted by dcarvy:
**I still don't buy into it was necessary. The US only had 300,000 military losses in the whole war while Japan took 1.25 million. Maybe drop one bomb but 2. The 2 bombs and of different type makes it look more like an experiment and that still does not explain the choice of the targets. When you also look at how Germany was bombed and the civilian targets that were carpet bombed there you start to think about the US's choice of targets. Just as an interesting fact, the US dropped more bombs on Germany in the last 3 months of the war than Germany dropped in the whole span of the war, and some of those bombs were on non-military targets like Dresden. In the fire bombing of Dresden. more people died than in either of the atomic bombs and what was there to bomb in Dresden; nothing more than people. Just bomb it to kill all the people or what?? Too bad the assasination plot on Hitler failed becuase many of these things might have been avoided

Maybe the bombs were a message to Russia, but just so you know, Russia did not have nuclear capability till 1949 or 1950 (can't remeber which). And when you start looking at how the US treated its allies, yes it was very helpful to the British and saved them, but it never trusted or helped Russia that much. When Germany invaded, the US was reluctant to send anything to Russia becuase the US thought Russia would fall so anything they sent would later be captured by the Germans (this was of course to to the abysmal defeats the Russians suffered at the beginning of the war with Germany and their terrible losses when taking part of Poland when Germany and Russia decided to split Poland in half). The US did rebuild Japan but that was to get a good economic market for their products. I guess you can still consider that something very good even though it was for economic reasons.

Anyway, it still is a matter of opinion. I still greatly disagree with the 2 nuclear bombs and think the justification given is quite weak and when I look at other things like the fire bombing of Dresden I just start to wonder. We could argue this for days (it is a quite fascinating topic, or atleast I think so), hopefully the world has learned form the mistakes of this war (yes there were many and I consider the 2 atomic bombs and Dresden to be some of the mistakes that should go along with the holocaust and hitler's idea of the aryan race being superior to all others, ect). Well anyway, hopefully I wont get in trouble for posting off topic. One thing led to another and here we are discussing world war II. We should probably blame Silver Dragon for posting interesting posts that get us (or me atleast) in trouble.

**

I agree for the most part. However, the Dresden Firebombing was carried out by RAF Bomber Command, not the USAF. US planes weren't good at night-flying, they didn't have the technology.

It's interesting. The USians always go on about Russia and the Cold War, but when you look at it, they're the only country that has ever initiated a nuclear war. Little wonder people are so afraid of Bush's nuclear umbrella.

jon

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Grubs! That's what we're gooing to eat! That's why they call it grub! And what're we gonna do to get the grub? Why, we're grubbing for it!

Man! The japs were offering to surrender Before the bombs. This is the deadset truth, and the second bomb was way over the top. The only good thing to come of it is that now we all know how crap nukes are and so no-one has everused one scince.

And another thing. The russians lost twice as many men as the rest of the participants in the war doubled. Like 40 million men. Did you Americans ever say "Thanks Stalin" for the fourty million men? Huy hell thats a lot of screaming mothers to deal with. Stalin was a prick though.

sorry if i offended anyone.

~A~
"Become a Pirate"

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"How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

Quote

Originally posted by JG:
**It's interesting. The USians always go on about Russia and the Cold War, but when you look at it, they're the only country that has ever initiated a nuclear war.
**

It's not nuclear war unless both sides use nuclear weapons.

USians? That's a new one.

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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. " - General George Patton