Ambrosia Garden Archive
    • Message to Tycho: I accept. I will send are armor and blaze tech to you. END OF MESSAGE

      Titan sends a convoy to Zachit station.

      ------------------
      "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all into the darkness and bind them, in the land of mordor where the shadows lie."
      Check out the upcomming Lord of the Rings Movies at (url="http://"http://www.lordoftherings.net/home.html")http://www.lordofthe...s.net/home.html(/url)

    • Quote

      Originally posted by Samurai:
      **Whatever Red, you said that you set the ships used in the First Centauri attack to patrolling the frontier. I just ran into it, k?
      **

      The dreadnought was taken back to Voinian space. It seems like you could do the same with a frigate, though.. there are plenty of Frigates...

      ------------------
      The difference in
      insantiy and ingenious is
      measured just by success.

    • Quote

      Originally posted by Samurai:
      **Whatever Red, you said that you set the ships used in the First Centauri attack to patrolling the frontier. I just ran into it, k?
      **

      The dreadnought was taken back to Voinian space. It seems like you could do the same with a frigate, though.. there are plenty of Frigates...

      A fleet of 8 dreadnoughts, 12 Frigates, three cruisers and the Adzgari warship warp into Vorik, Destry all UE vessels, then reclaims Ylynn outpost. The fleet then goes to pax, and destroyes all UE crew members and privateers. The fleet remains in orbit around pax, except for the AW, which empties its fighters, and warps to Voinia.

      b{Private message to: USS Bristol}
      <encrypt>
      I am hereby giving you the job of spying on UE and Miranu. I am also leaving it up to you to open trade routes with other races.
      {end message}

      {private message to: Entropy}
      <encrypt>
      Contact Bristol about the ID's, and u should throw the Emalgha ID's away. The Emalgha are enslaved once again.
      {end message}

      {Private Message to: Kiwi_a2}
      <encrypt>
      i am sending you one sample of Voinian Dospect Armor for you to copy. Therer is also a Voinian Fleet of two dreadnoughts and eight frigates for you to conquer a Zidagar Spaceport/shipyard. Please send me one Zidagar ICM system, and one Phase Beam, and return all of the surviving ships to me. You can keep everything else. I am also sending you one borb turret for you to copy.
      {End Message}

      An Engineer walks up to REDchigh and gives him the weekly casualty/damage report.
      Three Voinian cargo ships.
      two h. fighters
      three Fighters have minimal damage
      one frigate has moderate armor damage
      one interceptor has blaze markings, and evidence of being disabled and plundered, but the armor is recharged. Also, nothing is missing, exept for the load of rockets.

      Redchigh reads that last part again, and asks to see the fighter. REDchigh is escorted to the mechanic yard, and he enters the fighter. He notices blaze burns around the ship, and a small puddle of Voinian blood by the door. He asks his investigators to study the interceptor, and they conclude that a human has been onboard. REDchigh asks to see the pilot, and they find out that the pilots are MIA.
      REDchigh immediatly figures out that there are spies around, and upgrades all security to include retina scans whenever anyone enters into a base or station. He also orders all military personnel to stop speaking intergalactic standard,and speak in Voinian instead. He also increass border patrol, and orders them to scan all outgoing vessels for human.... scan for non-voinian life forms.

      REDchigh uses the Adzgari Arada plans, and invents the Voinian Arada. It is just an Adgari arada, with Borb weopons instead of Phase, and Rocket launcher instead of D. Launcher.

      REDchigh also spends 3M to create a Marine Training Facility. These new marines will be experts of hand to hand, as well as armed combat, will know current technologies, and be excellent pilots. I will have 20 per day, starting tomorrow.

      REDchigh sets two million more credits to speed up research on Space mines and defense pods, and sets .8M per day to start his engineers designing the Neutron Beam. should be finished in two days.

      A cloaked dreadnought warps into orbit around freeport, spins while emptying space mines, and destroys all renegade vessels. The Dreadnought then goes up to asc's ship, and places mines in a dense circle around the ship, so the second the ship moves, it will set all of them off, and the dreadnought backs up, and launches a single rocket at the azdara, setting all of the mines off, and destroying the ship. Also, specify where u got the Adzgari ship and the neutron cannons.

      {private message to ASC}
      <encrypt>
      one, the miranu are peaceful, so they can't have nukes. The zachit, well i don't know.
      When i said voinian ships are invincible in miranu space, i meant their weopons are focused on doing shield damage, and Voinians are made of armor. If u are my enemy, then u are the Adzgari's enemy too, because we are close allies. Now, If you were to turn against the UE, i could make it worthwhile....u could be liked by the Adzgari....A couple million credits could appear in your account..... could get your pick of Voinian ships..... just think about it!
      {end message}

      ------------------
      The difference in
      insantiy and ingenious is
      measured just by success.

      (This message has been edited by -REDCHIGH- (edited 02-06-2001).)

    • Quote

      Originally posted by USS Bristol:
      **
      Dont forget that our ships are nearly invinceble
      in the Crescent, so we could crush the Miranu and copy the Phase Cannons.>
      **

      COMMENT ON THE ABILITY OF THE VOINIANS TO KILL THE MIRANU: The Voinians have nukes, right? What makes you think that the Miranu don't?

      Nukes are too big (and therefore slow and easy to dodge) to use on UE ships (which is presumably why the Voinians didn't use them, along with the fact that weapons with really big blast radi(sp) just don't work out in systems with asteroids, which could be why the himans didn't use them), but if the Miranu just stripped down Zachit fighters, strapped on nukes, and used a remote control(so, a kamakazi spacecraft with no pilot and a really big bomb), the Voinian ships would drop like large heavily armored spaceships that have just been nuked. It'd take several fighters per Voinian ship, but the Zachit have a while lotta fighters.

      This could be done quickly, so the ships could easily be ready by the time the Voinian offensive begins, if someone tells the Miranu...... HINT, HINT

      Anyway, my character is an Azdgari who has turned renegade. I don't fight other Azzys, though, so I still have a clean rating with them. I fly an Azzy fighter decked out with neutron cannons instead of phase cannons, and an afterburner.

      Funds: 500K
      Income: 1K per day(I conquored one of the Voinian space stations on their western border) plus whatever I can get by stealing people's credits.

      Info:
      Name: Rayoth
      Status: Pirate
      Skills: Good pilot. Has been known to disable voinian cruisers for fun via the Monty Python manuver. Some technological knoweledge.
      Ship Name: Rayth (pronounced Wraith)
      Allies: The Azzy government, and all renegades.
      Enemies: Everyone except the Miranu, Zachit, Azzys, and renegades.
      Other things you should know: Has a thing for powerful weapons, computer viri, and acid. Carries an adequate supply of all three. Borderline insane. The type of person who would put a space bomb under your seat cushion for a laugh. Willing to work as a mercenary for anyone except the other strands or the Voinians.
      Current location: Freeport

    • I would like to join, so who owns which governments? Who controls the Igadzra? Who controls F-25?

      ----------------

      On Mark Station in the Mark system....

      The lone Igadzra moved silently around the cargo containers, and finally was able to sneak into the Igadzra Igazra Class Warship. In the complete pitch darkness, the lone figure silently crept into the bridge, and pulled out a phase blaster. After charging up the weapon, the figure stood, and then switched on the light.

      "No one here," he thought.

      Suddenly, another figure appeared from behind a consol. "Carnotaur!" he exclaimed. "What are you doing here? I thought Morkan told you to...."

      "Morkan's dead, Scorcher, his arada was shot down by an Igadzra patrol. The resistence is breaking up. I was able to grab the technology we had and then get here,' the Igadzra Carnotaur replied.

      "What do you want to do now?" the Igadzra scorcher asked.

      "Hijack this ship."

      "Hijack an Igazra! Are you kidding? Alright, no ones here and its open, but how do we get past the patrols?"

      "By creating enough of a disturbance to let us get away."

      "How?"

      "Just watch."

      Within two minutes, the Igazra, named the Freedom, was ready, and Carnotaur then piloted the ship out of the docking bay. As an Igadzra patrol approached them to ask for identification, Carnotaur fired on the patrol and the station at the same time. A dispersal rocket hit the Igadzra Arada Patrol, and the ship exploded.

      "Lucky shot," Carnotaur thought.

      Then, a barrage of SAEs hit Mark Station directly in the generator, causing the station to explode in a massive ball of fire and debris. Igadzra ships immediately moved to deal with the wreckage of the station, and in the confusion the Freedom was able to slip away, and then, using one of Carnotaur's special mobile cloaks, disappear...

      Carnotaur and Scorcher were part of an Igadzra resistence. Their job was to overthrow the Igadzra government. They were Azdgari (Scorcher is an Azdgari), Zidagar, and Igadzra, but they all had one purpose; destroy the Igadzra. But now the resistence was falling apart, and now Carnotaur had ordered that they all try to make it to the Voinian Empire, where they would hopefully be safe.

      However, Carnotaur held a deep and powerful secret; technology. The technology that Carnotaur, Morkan (now dead), and Scorcher had been working on was of such great importance, over half of the resistence didn't even know it existed. It was for a new ship; the Corocian (Igadzra word for 'Resistence' and 'Freedom') Cruiser. It looked like any normal Igadzra, but it was three or four times the size, and was over five times as powerful. However, it was still mostly a theory, and Carnotaur was not very near to producing it. However, it was being developed upon, and soon Carnotaur hoped to create this massive and imensely powerful vessels to help destroy the Igadzra....

      But now he needed help....

      -------------

      <Message to the Voinian Empire>
      <Voinians, this is Carnotaur, new leader of the Corocian Igadzra Resistence. We are trying to overthrow the Igadzra government, and destroy them completely, however, we are small in number and disorganized. We ask you to help us. All we need is one planet, protection, and some help, like funds and supplies. Will you help us? My ship is already heading towards Voinian space. Please respond.>
      <End Message>

      ------------------
      To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
      --------------
      Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
      Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).

    • Using a force of 10 Azdgari Warships kiwi jumps in to Terapin and wipe out the force easily with the help of the vionians with only 3 Azdara loses and upon plundering all ships and uotposts and docks they find what RED was looking for and send the voinians on their way with the technology and the warships jump out of the system with most of the outpost.

      <message to RED>

      Mission successful and with minimal casualties.

      <end of message>

      <message to Captain Carnotaur>

      <heavily encrypted>

      We will offer you protection.

      <end of message>

      ------------------
      --The Eye is Upon you--
      If you look long enough the Sun isn't that bright.

    • Whoa, Red, you seem to really have a crapload of dreadnoughts. Where are you getting the money to build all those naughts? May I remind you that it takes a lot of money to build even one dreadnought? I know you control a large empire, but that is totally ridiculous. You would be in debt about 80 million credits by now if you built all those suckers. In EVO, a dreadnought costs 30 million. Since all ships cost half price in this story, that would be 150 mil (to build your ten or so (cloaked!?!?) dreadnoughts) that you just don't have. Unless you can justify your amount of cash, I must revoke your post.

      Note to Red: If you withdrew the dreadnought to Voinian space, you should have said so in one of your posts.

      To Carno: Welcome to the story! Nobody controls the Iggies or F-25. Or the Zidagar, for that matter.

      CONTINUATION: A tiny, red, organic looking thing enters the pax system. The Voinians and the UE that are in the system stare at it, perplexed. It flys toward a Voinian frigate. The frigate unable to hail it, simply waits. A small beam lances out of the object, and causes massive damage to the frigate. The frigate attempts to return fire, but its neutron weapons are too slow to hit the strange thing. Another beam strikes out and the Frigate is no more. The thing then leaves the system. UE and Voinian captains take reports to their leaders regarding this strange occurance.

      ------------------
      Macintosh for productivity, Linux for development, Palm for mobility, and Windows for Solitaire.

    • NOTE TO MODS: The Corocian (Freedom in Igadzra) Resistence has tons of money through black market deals, illegal trading, etc.

      --------------

      The Igazra 'Freedom' zoomed through system after system. Finally, it reaches a UE Listening Post just north of Alurda. Breaking into its computer system, Carnotaur was able to send out a new message to the surviving resistence; "Get to the Voinian Empire, the Azdgari Empire, or F-25, the new resistence base. I am sending Scorcher there along with a captured Azdgari warship to set up a new base. However, once you are all ready and rested after being with the Azdgari or Voinians, everyone should try to get to F-25. End message."

      Then, Carnotaur continued on his way. He ran into a few UE patrols, but the Freedom was equipped with an Igadzra beam, and Carnotaur easily destroyed every UE ship he met.

      Soon, Carnotaur entered the Pax system. Seing two UE Carriers ganging up on a Voinian frigate, Carnotaur rushed to the frigate's rescue. The UE ships didn't even know what hit them, and soon both carriers were destroyed. The Voinian frigate thanked the strange vessel, then left to go to Vorik.

      Carnotaur followed the frigate to Vorik, got a map, and then continued on to Voinia. Once in the Voinia system, Carnotaur asked for permission to see Redchigh, the Voinian emporer.... (right? Reds the voinian emporer?)

      ------------------
      To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
      --------------
      Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
      Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).

    • Encrypted message to Entropy

      < I would like to buy 3 Zachit identifications,
      are they 750 000 each? >

      Encrypted message to Voinian High Command

      < Have I got enough funds to buy 3 Zachit identifications
      for 2,25M ? >

      ------------------

    • The UE, shaken from the recent attacks of the Voinians, the weird Igzara, and the organic thingy, slowly rebuilds its strength. A new UE design has been created, to complement the Cruisers and Carriers in battle.

      The UE Decimator:

      Shipyard scale used.
      Shields: 450
      Armor: 200
      Speed: Slightly faster than a UE Destroyer
      Turn: Same as UE Destroyer
      Accel: Slightly better than UE Destroyer
      Crew: 367
      Shield recharge: 1% per second.
      Cargo space: 80 tons
      Extra weapons space: 50 tons
      Production cost: One million credits per decimator.

      Standard armaments: 4 Amplified Blaze Turrets, One UE Interceptor* bay and 8 Interceptors, 2 Hunter Launchers and 15 Hunter Missles.

      *A UE interceptor is a faster, slightly less powerful version of the UE Fighter. 8 to a bay. Fairly cheap.

      ------------------
      Macintosh for productivity, Linux for development, Palm for mobility, and Windows for Solitaire.

    • A cloaked dreadnought warps into orbit around freeport, spins while emptying space mines, and destroys all renegade vessels. The Dreadnought then goes up to asc's ship, and places mines in a dense circle around the ship, so the second the ship moves, it will set all of them off, and the dreadnought backs up, and launches a single rocket at the azdara, setting all of the mines off, and destroying the ship. Also, specify where u got the Adzgari ship and the neutron cannons.

      {private message to ASC}
      <encrypt>
      one, the miranu are peaceful, so they can't have nukes. The zachit, well i don't know.
      When i said voinian ships are invincible in miranu space, i meant their weopons are focused on doing shield damage, and Voinians are made of armor. If u are my enemy, then u are the Adzgari's enemy too, because we are close allies. Now, If you were to turn against the UE, i could make it worthwhile....u could be liked by the Adzgari....A couple million credits could appear in your account..... could get your pick of Voinian ships..... just think about it!
      {end message}

      ===========================
      Hmm.... Sure! I got the cannons from Parren station, before I started raiding humans. I'm already the UE's enemy, being a renegade and all. I'd join you, or at least fight the UE actively(if only because of the fact that you're allied with the Azzys), except for the minor point that I'm dead. I suppose you could clone me, though. Also note the I'll sell any voinian ship in exchange for something with good maneuverability. With the posible exception of a Crecent fighter.

      If you choose to clone me, then the first thing I do, after getting a ship, is buy an escape pod.

      About Miranu and nukes: If they can't do any damage, why haven't the other strands taken them over? Any of the strands could take out the Zachit with no problem.

    • Asc, your view of the Zachit is way off. For example, in ROTV II, the Voinians attack the Zacha. Since Crescent weapons don't do much to shields, then you would assume that the Zacha would be creamed? Wrong. The Zachit are close nit, they work together easily, they are coordinated, much more so than any other larger attacker, like the Voinians (who, in ROTV II, had to make a cease-fire agreement with the Zachit). If any of the strands tried to take them over, the Zachit would hold them off, and the Zidagar would probably try to help the Miranu.

      ----------------

      Meanwhile, all of the remaining Corocian Resistence has settled on F-25, or is seeking shelter in Azdgari or Voinian space. On F-25, using stolen credits and supplies, Captain Scorcher sets up a major base on the planet, and soon captured Igadzra aradas, laziras, crescent fighters, and even Scorchers personal ship the Igazra 'Torcher' (also captured), are flying around the system.

      Then, Scorcher, using modified defense pods that last long periods of time and can be used as mines, sets up a minefield blocking in F-25 from all non-Azdgari, non-Voinian, and non-Corocian vessels.

      Then, Scorcher gets to work on creating shipyards, research facilities, and mines (to get resources) so that the Corocian Resistence can grow, and one day overthrow the Igadzra...

      ------------

      Meanwhile, Carnotaur meets with the Voinian Emporer, Redchigh I think, and explains the Corocian Resistence and their situation. He asks Redchigh for some extra funds, technology, and a lot of supplies. Carnotaur also asks if he can temporarily borrow two Voinian cruisers or a few Voinian frigates. In exchange, Carnotaur will give the Voinians Igadzra Beam technology, phase weapon technology, Crescent shield technology (Voinian shields stink), SAD technology, and eventually SAE technology. What is Red's response?

      ------------------
      To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
      --------------
      Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
      Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).

      (This message has been edited by Captain Carnotaur (edited 02-07-2001).)

    • A convoy carrying phase cannons and shield generators heads for earth.

      im putting aside .8M a day for reaserch on the UE armour and blaze cannons.
      im spending 7M credits to start the upgrade on Zachit warships (includes the Zachia, a lazairia in Zachit form, found in advance plug) so they will be ready to accept new technology.
      Please note: Zachit warships have the right to plunder/capture any hostile renagades. When a renagade CW is disabled, we bring in numerous shuttles to deal with the crew and capture the ship, and are then modified to Zachit design. Other renagade ships are captured when possible.


      When the convoy arrieved at Zachit Station, Tycho knew it was time. He waved his trusted commander over to him.
      "Find me an independant merchant who has been to Emphalga(sp?) space since the Vionians moved in. Tell him it will be worth his while..."


      ------------------
      Don't knock on the gates of hell, ring the doorbell, it drives them crazy.

    • <message to USS Bristol, heavily encoded>
      Yes, the Zachit IDs are 750000 credits each. Three would cost two million two hundred and fifty thousand credits. Also-
      We will not tolerate the wanton attacks in the Freeport system. Several valuable ships and the only working Dragon prototype were destroyed. Please send one million credits to recompense for the loss.
      <end message>

      The Viper is up and working now. Money from the Viper's plunder increase the monetary flow into the renegade coppers by .05 million credits a day realtime.
      Renegade money- 31.50 million credits, growing by .75 million a day realtime.
      Entropy sets a half a million credits to research biological warfare. Due to lack of funding, work progresses slowly. We should have a biological weapon in 5 days realtime.

      31 million at days end.

      <Message to Carnotaur>- we will
      supply you with ships and phased beams if you let us have a share of the plunder.
      <end message.
      ------------------
      I ask you to look both ways- for the road to the atom leads through the stars, and the road to the stars leads through the atom.

      (This message has been edited by Entropy (edited 02-07-2001).)

    • Asc, your view of the Zachit is way off. For example, in ROTV II, the Voinians attack >the Zacha. Since Crescent weapons don't do much to shields,

      Do you mean armor, perhaps?

      then you would assume that the Zacha would be creamed? Wrong. The Zachit are close nit, >they work together easily, they are coordinated,

      I'm just going by what I see in the game. And not what it says in the descriptions, just how their AI fights.

      much more so than any other larger attacker, like the Voinians (who, in ROTV II, had to >make a cease-fire agreement with the Zachit). If any of the strands tried to take them >over, the Zachit would hold them off, and the Zidagar would probably try to help the >Miranu.

      I was assuming that it was just any strand VS the Miranu and Zachit, not taking political relations into account, but that is a good point. Piloted by an AI, though, the Ziggies have the worst warships (I've never seen a Zidera kill a warhip of another strand 1 on 1).

      But Miranu+Zachit+Ziggies would upset the balance of power. The Azzies and Izzies would see that they don't have a chance individually, and would ally(after they started losing, probabaly). Just because they've been at war for hundreds of years dosen't mean that they're stupid. And Azzy speed couples with Izzie power just isn't fair, no matter who they're fighting. I can just picture an Izzie warship with an Azdara bay and an Azzy warship with SAEs...... drools
      ------------------------
      Money: 501K
      Status: Still Dead

    • Message to Kiwi: The UE would like to make an alliance with you, We would help you destroy the Igadzra. please contact me with your answer. End of message

      ------------------
      "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all into the darkness and bind them, in the land of mordor where the shadows lie."
      Check out the upcomming Lord of the Rings Movies at (url="http://"http://www.lordoftherings.net/home.html")http://www.lordofthe...s.net/home.html(/url)

    • <message to Titan>
      <heavy encryption>

      I will end my disputes with you but will not help you fight the Voinians and you and RED must have at least a partial break in your constant wars then I will have Diplomatic relations ith you but I will always side with the Voinians if it comes to that

      <end of message>

      ------------------
      --The Eye is Upon you--
      If you look long enough the Sun isn't that bright.

    • Um, everyone, who controls which governments? It's getting confusing. Also, remember that I am only allied with the Azdgari and the Voinians. Anyone who is enemies of these governments, is my enemies.

      ----------------

      On F-25, Scorcher had begun work on researching the new technology that Carnotaur had been working on. But now Scorcher had research labs, which researched technology much faster and much more effeciantly. Scorcher was now hoping that by the time the rest of the resistence and Carnotaur got back, almost all of the new technology would have been completed.

      ------------------
      To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
      --------------
      Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
      Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).

    • The Dragon has been completed, and is now in production. A force of Crescent Warships, Laziras, Dragons, and Turncoats are attacking Kayia today, we'll find out what happens to them at most by tomorrow.

      The Dragon increases money coming into renegade coffers by .1 million credits, so the cash flow is now +.85 million credits a day.
      Renegade funds- 31.85 million credits.
      I set an additional +.5 million credits towards researching biological weapons, shortening their completion time to two days realtime.

      <Message to Bristol>
      I'm still waiting...
      <end message>

      Funds at day's end- 31.35 million.

      ------------------
      I ask you to look both ways- for the road to the atom leads through the stars, and the road to the stars leads through the atom.

    • ASC, a Zidara never beats a Azzy or an Iggie straight on, of course not.. BUT, a Zidara costs 1/4 that of an enemy warship! The Zidagar are pack animals if you get down to it! They reley on numbers!!

      As for the Miranu not having nukes, true! THEY DON'T NEED THEM. The Zacha force is the smallest fighting force in the crescant. However, it is also the most effeicent and reliable force ever seen. If they got as big as the Voinian force, the Ziddies would jump for joy, and the Azzies and Iggies could kiss their butts goodbye!

      ----------------

      Pikera calls Tycho on the com link.. "These Voinians must be stopped! They are destroying likely trade partners and raiding our technology!! I give you full permission to fire at will with this latest weapon.." Pikera says as he sends him the blueprints of a new Dipsy Rocket...

      This rocket had been reversed into exploding shrapnel instead of energy! Once shields were down, the shrapnel could literly shred the armor of the ships! They were just as light as the regular dipsies, and even reach longer range thanks to the riddance of the plasmitic warhead required for the origional rocket.. 1m to install on all Zachit vessals..

      "Takes these Voinians down Tycho!!!"

      With that, he wishes him luck and shuts the com..

      "So we Miranu don't fight... who says we don't make weapons for those who do??" He says to no one in particular..

      ------------------
      Hi! I'm Alien the Hinwar and I'm a stuiped jerk!
      I'm big, mad, strong, and Hinwar! I yell 'LONG LIVE THE UE!', but I smash vikimadegie lovers every chance I get!
      Cause I'm Alien the Hinwar and I'm a stuiped jerk!
      I'm always making the mods mad doing something or another, but I'll never learn! I'll never turn! Look at my karma!