Artemis only provides such a problem if you ignore the topic title and original post

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That's because Scumdog, being the good chap he is, actually gives you useful information-instead of simply attacking one government over and over again.

In my opinion, the intro text gives you some very useful information. It tells you who is the better side. I happen to like fighting for the right side.

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Doesn't it show how pathetic the Rebels are when you have to search for things to nitpick as pitiful as that?

It doesn't seem all that pitiful to me. Scumdog makes a few references that could be taken as barely saying the Rebels are a danger. The intro text states in no uncertain terms that the Confeds are corrupt and threatening the liberties of the people.

Also, Scumdog was a Confederate. He probably left before it became corrupt, but he will be conditioned to think that the Confeds are right and the saviors of humanity. He also spent a good bit of time tradeing in the Inner Worlds, where he would be subject to some Confed propaganda.

Companies are often in massive coverups-Astex seems to be doing fine. How do you know that the Confeds were in on it?

Now we start repeating ourselves.

As the glorious David Arthur said, Scumdog tells you who he is-the intro text does not. Since we haven't seen the malignant "Confed corruption" (and it could be provided for the game if it had to be), obviously it exists only in the minds of Rebels.

Scumdog was a Confederate-as are, no doubt, a good number of Rebel veterans and commanders. What, did you think all their leaders just popped out of thin air? Besides, looking on Scumdog's logs, he seems rather cynical in those last minutes of his-not one to spend time doting on one particular government. He spent time trading on a freighter, but not necessarily one in the "Core Worlds"-in fact, it never says it was in the core worlds in Scumdog's first words, and he apparently saw most of the galaxy on that tour of duty. Basically everyone knows of the core worlds, so...

I'm sure you've noticed this-Rebels say the same things. If "Join us against the evil Rebels" is some new form of propaganda that is capable of taking over your mind, then I'm sure the Rebels also have an army of zombies.

I'd like to point something else out-if you're going by propaganda, technically the Voinians are the good guys, because all they say is stuff like "Take care, human" while the UE gives you all the firebrand recruitment propaganda conversation they can.

-Bob

Confeds.

Why?

Intro Text: Rebel Propaganda

Explanations:

Accurate:

The new age of peace and prosperity was a failure. The discoveries that made faster-than-light travel possible brought us untold riches...

...and unknown dangers.

The alien warships appeared without warning and decimated most of the outer colony worlds within hours. There was no stopping the mysterious alien menace.

The Great War was upon us.

But we beat them. The human race banded together into a powerful confederation of worlds, whose combined military strength was enough to turn the tide of the War.

Within eight years, the enigmatic alien marauders were extinct.

Propaganda:

But the elite and powerful members of the Confederation were reluctant to give up their power after the end of the War, and began a rule of oppression and tyranny, aided by the powerful Confederation Navy.

Explanation:

The Navy was probably there to protect the colonies, incase they hadn't killed all the aliens. And the tyranny only seems to effect the outer colonies, which means they just thought it was tyranny.

Propaganda:

They exploited the outer colony planets for the benefit of the wealthy Core Worlds, stripping them of their resources and coercing the colonists into forced labor.

Explanation:

Forced Labor - The colonists had to COMPLETELY rebuild their worlds, which took much more work than maintaining the Core Worlds.
Benefit of Core Worlds - looked like they benefitted because they still had their worlds intact, while the outer colonies had nothing.

This reign of terror lasted for fifteen years; then the insurrection began.

Propaganda:

The outer colonies, weary of the Confederation’s practices of exploiting their land and denying them any representation in the Senate, formed an organized rebellion aimed at destroying their oppressors.

Explanation:

Senate - They were still probably territories like in the US, did territories get representation?

Propaganda:

In time, their pitiful forces grew, with the help of sympathetic corporations, into a formidable navy.

Explanation:

More like corporations that can accept shady practices and bribes.

Questionable Rebel Practices in the Game:

Assassinating Senators
Selling illegal and dangerous weapons and outfits
Allowing piracy to be prevalent in their systems
Forcing Confed Captains to turn traitor, by means of questionable means
Executing an ethical war
Attacks defenseless freighters
Attacking Neutral Planets
Stealing Weapons

Questionable Confed Practices ( supposed ) in the Game:

Dumping Toxic Chemicals on Neutral Worlds - Wrong, Astex mining corp does this, the Confeds are not involved
Attacking Neutral Planets
Black Market Wood - Wrong, local pirate group, which is trying to be suppressed

Good Rebel Practices in the Game:

Evacuating Planets

Good Confed Practices in the Game:

Protecting Freighters
Evacuating Planets
Attacking Pirates
Rescuing Derelict Ships

Those are all the things I found in the game.

This post has been edited by EVWeb : 20 November 2005 - 09:21 PM

Rebels attack pirates too.

The reason you don't usually get pirates in Confed space is that the hypothetical anti-Confed pirate would have to get past Rebel, Indie, and Confed patrols. Not easy. Not worth the effort when you could spend less fuel and effort raiding fringe worlds, which is exactly where the Rebels are.

Have you guys ever made an addon?

If you have you would notice that Rebels are Pirate ALLIES.

Which means the Rebels have a deal with the Pirates to raid Confed systems, but the pirates still get attacked by rebels so the Rebels don't look bad.

There you go.

EVWeb, I'm sorry, but neither govemment is completely nice. That said, its still a well-researched post. Kudos for that! I'm trying to put up a well-researched, balanced post (as in admitting that neither side is completely good), but its hard as my preference is still the Rebels.

First, lets look at your list of supposed crimes the Rebels do.

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Allowing piracy to be prevalent in their systems

Totally and utterly bogus. As JoeBob said, Rebels attack Pirates too. If that isnt enough evidence, I played EV for a bit and saw that a Rebel Cruiser attacked the Pirate pers Anaconda. Oh, and about the Rebels being Pirate allies: stop spreading rubbish. They most definitely haven't made a deal. They have different interests, they just happen to have a common enemy. The Rebels want to fight the Confeds, and the Pirates dont like the Confeds hindering their looting of traders. And no, its not because the Rebels dont want to look bad they attack Pirates. They hate Pirates like anybody else, and they are a threat to them.

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Selling illegal and dangerous weapons and outfits

Its true that they do indeed sell illegal outfits. But I must protest that Tritanium and Shield Boosters are hardly dangerous. Also, Space Bombs are hardly illegal. They would be the most closely matching illegal weapons, but that they sell illegal weapons is simply rubbish.

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Attacks defenseless freighters

This is only because Matt programmed the engine this way. If two goverments are enemies, even civilian ships of these goverment suffer. Its NOT because the Rebels are evil. In Tims Empire plugs, the Weave are definitely the good guys, yet they still attack Terran civilian ships because of this engine behavrior.

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Executing an ethical war

Could you tell what exactly you mean by destroying a ethical war?

I rooted trough every mission I could remotely think the Confeds had some evil behavrior, and I found some nasty things you werent aware of.

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Confed Courier operations misn

The data retrieved by the spy you escorted shows several peculiar readings. We have distributed this information along secured Confed lines, but we still can't make heads or tails of the readings. We require your assistance in transporting this data and to the <DSY> system, where one of our pirate contacts will aid you. We have also given you a small load of tritanium ore to be used as payment for our pirate contact. You must return the pirates analysis to <RST> in the <RSY> system by <DL>.

How cute. :rolleyes: The Confeds who are supposed to protect you from Pirates are actually working with them. The Confeds, who are supposed to protect civilians from Pirates and be the good guys.

If you dont believe me, here is a actual in-game desc (drop cargo for that mission):

A rotund, unkempt individual approaches you as you arrive in the landing area. Arrm... I see yer havin' some data I should be lookin' at. Thank ye... I'll send ye me findins before yer leavin' this port.

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Distribute Biological Weapons

Just yesterday, we received reports of a Rebel attack on <DST>. They're requesting huge amounts of supplies; we need you to deliver these munitions to <DST> within a month. Watch out for Rebel resistance, especially near the <DSY> system. Oh, and don't forget to return to this station if you'd like to run more of these missions for us in the future.

This is even worse than working with Pirates, and worst of all! The Confeds are using biological weapons against the Rebels! I think this is exactly the same executing of ethical war that EVWeb was saying about. While I agree that the Rebels shouldnt attack, the Confeds should definitely not use biological weapons to quell it. Just the title is enough, but just in case:

Distribute Biological Weapons quick brief Deliver biological weapons to <DST> in the <DSY> system by <DL>.

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Deliver refined toxins

A corporate executive meets you over lunch. Some of the industrial byproducts that are refined at our plant are used to produce biological weaponry. We would like to enlist your help in transporting these goods to <DST> in the <DSY> system for the final stages of manufacturing.

Once again, the chemicals are offloaded from your ship. Just in time, says the man in charge of the team of workmen. The Confederation has just been hit hard by Rebel forces, and many weapons manufacturers around the galaxy are shipping their weapons. If we need your services we will call on you again.

:rolleyes:

The Confeds are using industrial waste to make bioweapons instead of storing them safe (like you do with nuclear waste from nuclear reactors). So not only do they not store it safe, they use it to make weapons!

And the last one has text which could be classified as Confed propaganda if the intro text is Rebel propanganda.

Stop Confed Defector

Completion text: Well done! says your Confederation contact. The destruction of the traitors on the <SN> will send a clear message to others who are being seduced by the Rebellion. With the help of brave patriots like you, <PN>, we will soon root out these subversives

So the Rebels suddenly are seducers and dangerous to society (thats what subversive means, according to my Finnish- English dictionary)?

Bottom line: Neither side is completely good. The Confed evilness is well hidden into the game, with pirates and bioweaps. But the Rebels arent completely good either. Forcing to be a traitor and killing Senators... ugh. But overall, I think the Rebel crimes are less severe.

That was my attempt at the most balanced Confed- Rebel argument post ever. But since it took more than 3 hours to make, I wont make a as balanced post ever again.

Well, for the most part, General Cade, your post seems fairly accurate. This causes some significant amount of doubt, as you can imagine, especially considering as I never was quite 100% Confed. A long time ago, I completely favored the Rebels, and moved when I saw David Arthur's earliest posts. Considering that all the Rebels of the time had to say was basically cheerleading for the Rebellion, while Arthur actually presented a cause, that was enough to convert things over, to an extent, but I never really believed that fully. A form of "doublethink", I suppose. And now that I've seen this post, I partially relent. But as for this...

General Cade Smart, on Nov 23 2005, 10:08 AM, said:

(In response to the "defenseless freighters" bit)
This is only because Matt programmed the engine this way. If two goverments are enemies, even civilian ships of these goverment suffer. Its NOT because the Rebels are evil. In Tims Empire plugs, the Weave are definitely the good guys, yet they still attack Terran civilian ships because of this engine behavrior.

...it doesn't matter if the engine was programmed that way or not. The Rebels still attack ships that way-if he wanted to keep the Rebels from attacking civilians, he could have simply made a "Confed Civvie" government and put them in it. You shouldn't use the game engine as a crutch-they attack Confed civilians, either way.

-Bob

And I sit here and I wonder.. when're you numbnuts gonna figure out it's a fight over politics, not good and evil?

Now I vanish before someone screams "OMG IT'S ALIEN!!"

poof

wishes he could move this to Just Chat

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Confed Courier operations misn

The data retrieved by the spy you escorted shows several peculiar readings. We have distributed this information along secured Confed lines, but we still can't make heads or tails of the readings. We require your assistance in transporting this data and to the <DSY> system, where one of our pirate contacts will aid you. We have also given you a small load of tritanium ore to be used as payment for our pirate contact. You must return the pirates analysis to <RST> in the <RSY> system by <DL>.

How cute. The Confeds who are supposed to protect you from Pirates are actually working with them. The Confeds, who are supposed to protect civilians from Pirates and be the good guys.

First off, this is correct, and I simply never got that mission, so I didn't know. Comment: Pirates can learn things that nobody else can learn, which makes them good contacts, and the Confeds aren't promoting piracy. The Confeds are the ONLY ones that set up listening posts for finding pirates.

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Distribute Biological Weapons

Just yesterday, we received reports of a Rebel attack on <DST>. They're requesting huge amounts of supplies; we need you to deliver these munitions to <DST> within a month. Watch out for Rebel resistance, especially near the <DSY> system. Oh, and don't forget to return to this station if you'd like to run more of these missions for us in the future.

This is even worse than working with Pirates, and worst of all! The Confeds are using biological weapons against the Rebels! I think this is exactly the same executing of ethical war that EVWeb was saying about. While I agree that the Rebels shouldnt attack, the Confeds should definitely not use biological weapons to quell it. Just the title is enough, but just in case:

Distribute Biological Weapons quick brief Deliver biological weapons to <DST> in the <DSY> system by <DL>.

This is true, and even the Confeds make bad decisions.

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Stop Confed Defector

Completion text: Well done! says your Confederation contact. The destruction of the traitors on the <SN> will send a clear message to others who are being seduced by the Rebellion. With the help of brave patriots like you, <PN>, we will soon root out these subversives

So the Rebels suddenly are seducers and dangerous to society (thats what subversive means, according to my Finnish- English dictionary)?

I got my source for this through this mission, from the REBELS themselves:

Switch Sides

Suddenly, a platoon of Rebel marines bursts into the spaceport bar! Their squad leader searhces the crowd for a moment, and then points to you. “There he is, men!” he shouts. “Grab him!” With no chance to escape from the crowded barroom, the marines quickly sieze you and drag you off to the port governer’s office...

“So, if it isn’t <PN>, the infamous Confederation dupe,” snarls the port governor, his contempt clearly audible. “Here’s the deal. The Confeds trust you - that’s why you’re going to be our ace in the hole. Word is that the Confed frigate <SN> is going to be making a sweep through this sector soon. Your job will be to destroy it and then come back to <RST>. Oh, and don’t even think of backing out on this one - we’ll be watching your every move.”

That is from the REBELS themselves. So what I said was true.

Consul Bob, on Nov 23 2005, 06:04 PM, said:

...it doesn't matter if the engine was programmed that way or not. The Rebels still attack ships that way-if he wanted to keep the Rebels from attacking civilians, he could have simply made a "Confed Civvie" government and put them in it. You shouldn't use the game engine as a crutch-they attack Confed civilians, either way.

-Bob
View Post

If I remember correctly, there aren't any Rebel freighters in EV. If there were, however, the Confeds would attack those--as General Cade Smart said, if two governments are enemies, even civilian ships of these governments will suffer.

If you were in a war, would you let your enemy's supply routes go clean, so they could get all the funding, backup, and anything else they would need? No, you would attack those supply lines, unless you were a very bad commander. You've got a lot to gain from attacking those routes, and stand to lose a lot more by letting your enemy get renforced.

-Dash

However, they aren't there, so it doesn't matter if they would've been attacked if they were there or not. The Confeds still don't attack Rebel freighters, while the Rebels attack theirs.

-Bob

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Suddenly, a platoon of Rebel marines bursts into the spaceport bar! Their squad leader searhces the crowd for a moment, and then points to you. “There he is, men!” he shouts. “Grab him!” With no chance to escape from the crowded barroom, the marines quickly sieze you and drag you off to the port governer’s office...

“So, if it isn’t <PN>, the infamous Confederation dupe,” snarls the port governor, his contempt clearly audible. “Here’s the deal. The Confeds trust you - that’s why you’re going to be our ace in the hole. Word is that the Confed frigate <SN> is going to be making a sweep through this sector soon. Your job will be to destroy it and then come back to <RST>. Oh, and don’t even think of backing out on this one - we’ll be watching your every move.”

Umm, what is your point with this? The Rebels know you work for the Confeds and they are trying to use you to take out an enemy ship. Your problem with it is...what?

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Umm, what is your point with this? The Rebels know you work for the Confeds and they are trying to use you to take out an enemy ship. Your problem with it is...what?

Oh, so you don't think forcing people to KILL their fellow guys is bad? What the hell is wrong with you?

The Rebels are very dangerous, and their forcing people to attack their fellow guys is probably worse than any other torture, or death. I know I'd rather be dead. But who knows, maybe you just like going around killing everyone like the rebel physco you are.

Both sides do that.

Um... you show me one instance where the Confeds do it, and I'll back down, but if you can't then you are just filled with Rebel lies.

Rereading that, I probably was wrong to say that. However, when I wrote it, I was working from a standpoint where the Rebels are largely the good guys, and Confeds are largely the bad ones. Working from that standpoint it, I was thinking the worst the Rebel would do is incarcerate you for a long period of time. That doesn't entirely excuse it, so chalk it up to lousy reasoning on my part.

EVWeb: take ResEdit to the data files, and you will find it.

What I haven't found is coercion by the Artemis guild =P