You can have 5 Proton Cannons, but 4 is the limit for Lasers.
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Almost doesn't count, but barely does.
"The problem with the designated driver program, it's not a desirable job. But if you ever get sucked into doing it, have fun with it. At the end of the night, drop them off at the wrong house."
- Jeff Foxworthy
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Originally posted by martin:
**To take Macavenger's point on board...
Well, In my view, since they are a quarter of the price of a lightning (the next fighter up), surely it should take 4 hawks to kill a lightning? But, since 4 hawks' missiles could easily take down a lightning or two, I'm not sure what the problem is. I think the question really should be: "upgrades and price change for the hawk?" or perhaps "Whay can't we have more than two Hawks? As Frandall says "a swarm of fighter's can be very effective".
Have said all that, maybe five laser cannons would be better. 
Laser cannons are v. cheap! Or was there a reason that you couldn't have that many.
**
The next fighter up is the Clipper at 400,000 credits. I think the clipper wins vs the hawk (I have not tested this) due to its proton cannons and javelins. The hawk's 2 missiles are not enough to kill the clipper outright, and the clipper way outguns the hawk when they come down to the head on jousting runs.
The problem with the hawk is that (1) it is not able to fill the mission assigned to it-- defending a mothership from pirates. Two Hawks do not always defeat one Lightning, and 2 Hawks are useless against a Rapier (except as a diversion). (2) The hawk system costs too much, even if it did work. You could buy a better ship for the money.
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Actually, two Hawks will do a damn good job against a Clipper or Rapier. A lot of Rapiers is the best anti-capital ship weapon, better than a single large cruiser or destroyer or something, but a single Rapier is good for almost nothing. No good against big ships because of slow reload and relatively low shields/armor, no good against little ones because of no missiles.
Usually missiles are the biggest deciding factor in how well a fighter will do against other fighters. That's why Rapiers are so easy to kill with a single lightning or a pair of hawks. That's why a single Rapier won't be a good defense ship if you hire a courier as an escort and have two defenders attacking every turn. The Rapier can't decide what to hit fighters with. It usually decides on rockets, but they usually miss, or hurt themselves, or hurt their friends, and sometimes hit. Rockets are the second most effective AI armament on fighters, and cannons and Javelins are the least effective. They rarely use cannons/Javelins and when they do they almost always miss. Often they won't start firing until they're on top of a ship, instead of starting as soon as they're in range. This behavior is most apparent in Defenders.
AI ships tend to have a lot more ammo than their stats suggest. Patrol ships and hawks often use three missiles in a battle. Mantas still use one. Gunboats use MANY, almost ten. Gunboats also use three rockets. Frigates use over twenty missiles in a battle. I don't know how many missiles a corvette uses but it's a lot more than eight.
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Luca Rescigno
"And may not every one of the stars or suns have as great a retinue of planets with moons to wait upon them as has our own Sun?"
-Christiaan Huygens
Quote
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
two Hawks will do a damn good job against a Clipper or Rapier
Actually I think, when the Hawks wasted their one missile each which by the way won't take out the Rapier, the Rapier will kill them very fast with its Heavy Rockets The Clipper is okay, I can take one out in a Defender.
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Originally posted by Clueless:
The Clipper is okay, I can take one out in a Defender.(/B)
Not to be rude or anything, but what's your point? I'm sure just about everyone who's been playing the game for a long time (I've had it for about four years, possibly more) could easily destroy any of the fighters while flying any of the fighters. Many people have taken out the Alien Cruiser in a Clipper (myself included) or even Scoutships or Couriers (not me though). I bet someone could do it in a Defender. Has anyone, without cheating?
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Luca Rescigno
"And may not every one of the stars or suns have as great a retinue of planets with moons to wait upon them as has our own Sun?"
-Christiaan Huygens
Quote
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
**AI ships tend to have a lot more ammo than their stats suggest. Patrol ships and hawks often use three missiles in a battle. Mantas still use one. Gunboats use MANY, almost ten. Gunboats also use three rockets. Frigates use over twenty missiles in a battle. I don't know how many missiles a corvette uses but it's a lot more than eight.
**
AI ships get 175% of the ammo they are supposed to, rounded down. Gunboats have 7 Missiles, and Frigates really only have 17, even if it ssems like more. Corvettes have 14. Your fighters launched from your ship, however, get 50%, also rounded down. This is why Hawks only shoot one Missile, and Mantas in previous versions of EV didn't have any because they came standard with only 1. Any other escorts you have get normal ammo.
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Almost doesn't count, but barely does.
"The problem with the designated driver program, it's not a desirable job. But if you ever get sucked into doing it, have fun with it. At the end of the night, drop them off at the wrong house."
- Jeff Foxworthy
Quote
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
**Usually missiles are the biggest deciding factor in how well a fighter will do against other fighters. That's why Rapiers are so easy to kill with a single lightning or a pair of hawks. That's why a single Rapier won't be a good defense ship if you hire a courier as an escort and have two defenders attacking every turn. The Rapier can't decide what to hit fighters with. It usually decides on rockets, but they usually miss, or hurt themselves, or hurt their friends, and sometimes hit. Rockets are the second most effective AI armament on fighters, and cannons and Javelins are the least effective. They rarely use cannons/Javelins and when they do they almost always miss. Often they won't start firing until they're on top of a ship, instead of starting as soon as they're in range. This behavior is most apparent in Defenders.
**
The Rapier can survive 4 missiles. Normal AI ships get extra ammo, but fighters launched from your ship get the standard load. For Hawks, thats 2 missiles each. In Rapier vs 2 Hawks, the Rapier takes the missile hits and slaughters the Hawks with rockets at close range.
2 Hawks probably will defeat 1 Clipper, but 1 Hawk will not defeat 1 Clipper due to lack of firepower.
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(This message has been edited by magicianeer (edited 07-17-2001).)
(This message has been edited by magicianeer (edited 07-17-2001).)
Quote
Originally posted by magicianeer:
**The Rapier can survive 4 missiles. Normal AI ships get extra ammo, but fighters launched from your ship get the standard load. For Hawks, thats 2 missiles each. In Rapier vs 2 Hawks, the Rapier takes the missile hits and slaughters the Hawks with rockets at close range.
2 Hawks probably will defeat 1 Clipper, but 1 Hawk will not defeat 1 Clipper due to lack of firepower.
**
Correction, your fighters get half. See my above post. If you watch closely sometime, you should be able to tell. It was easier in the days of 1.0.4, when Mantas only had 1 Missile, so they didn't get any. But these days, Hawks, Mantas, and patrol ships you launch all only get 1. I'm hoping this whole ammo set up gets fixed in Nova.
Have any of you run any actual in game tests on this what-can-the-Hawk-kill stuff, or just guessing? I think despite the Rockets two hawks could beat a Rapier, or at least fight it to an endless duel. I may have to play with some of this and find out, but I'm busy working on a plug right now.
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Almost doesn't count, but barely does.
"The problem with the designated driver program, it's not a desirable job. But if you ever get sucked into doing it, have fun with it. At the end of the night, drop them off at the wrong house."
- Jeff Foxworthy
Quote
Originally posted by Macavenger:
**Correction, your fighters get half. See my above post. If you watch closely sometime, you should be able to tell. It was easier in the days of 1.0.4, when Mantas only had 1 Missile, so they didn't get any. But these days, Hawks, Mantas, and patrol ships you launch all only get 1. I'm hoping this whole ammo set up gets fixed in Nova.
Have any of you run any actual in game tests on this what-can-the-Hawk-kill stuff, or just guessing? I think despite the Rockets two hawks could beat a Rapier, or at least fight it to an endless duel. I may have to play with some of this and find out, but I'm busy working on a plug right now.
**
I actually tested Hawks vs Rapier, and Hawks vs Lightning a few months ago. I ran the tests with 2 hawks vs 1 other fighter and 4 hawks against 1 other fighter. My modifications for the Hawk came from these tests. I have not tested Hawks vs any other fighters.
Conclusions from my tests: either make the Hawk faster and allow up to 4 to be carried, or add an extra missile. Doing both makes the hawk system a bit too powerful (kills corvettes). In any case, make the bay cheaper.
I never noticed this 50% ammo issue. I have noticed that the AI in general is very stingy about firing its last missile. I rarely leave my fighters in a fight long enough for them to fire all their ammo-- they die if I do. One pass at the enemy, then return to mothership. If the enemy is not dead, launch and do it again.
If you do this test, you will have to "account" for free-flying hawks getting extra ammo. 6 missiles will kill a rapier, and sometimes 2 hawks get six missiles between them...
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(This message has been edited by magicianeer (edited 07-17-2001).)
I think a few people are looking at Hawks the wrong way. As Zacha Pedro pointed out, the Hawk is a niche fighter - it has a very specific purpose. The Hawk's job is to protect big, slow traders. It is not for fighting wars or even really for disabling opponents. A pair of Hawks don't have to be able to kill a Rapier or Lightning. If they can distract his attention from their mother ship long enough for the mother ship to jump or land, then they've done their job. Bonus if both Hawks survive.
Of course, you can use Hawks offensively: a pair can take out an Argosy quite easily, and their initial blast of missles can help soften up a tougher enemy as long as you remember to withdraw them from combat immediately after they fire so you don't lose them. But overall, this is not their purpose & they're not the best option for it. The only changes I would really support would be slightly better acceleration and speed (so they can reach their targets faster and withdraw faster) and possibly a few points of armor (so they can be recovered).
As for the issue of fighters having mass beyond the bay: remember that the mass you spend for the bay creates a large open area in your ship capable of storing the fighters. To have the fighters take up mass too would imply that you're storing the fighters outside of the existing bay in an area that you could have otherwise used for ammo or something else. "I've got this big bay designed for fighters, but I think I'll park this 12 ton ship where I could have had a missle rack." -I don't think so. It's similar to the idea of the javelin pod. The launching pod also stores the javelins so they don't eat into your weapon space. And the same principal applies for fighter bays. If you really wanted, you could create a carried fighter that had a simple launch window and each fighter was parked where ever you could fit it in your ship (so they would each take up mass), but it makes more sense for the designers to have created a single bay in most cases.
I would be interested to see a Hawk that could be purchased and flown by the player. Since the base model is so cheap, it wouldn't take much for a few engineers to design a version that was a little tougher and held enough fuel to be useful. Then it could be a good midrange fighter, used by less extensive militias and young fighter pilots just starting out.
One last point: the Clipper is not a fighter. It is a good, solid general-purpose ship, but it is no fighter. It's acceleration and turning are both slow enough to make it's overall maneuverability lag. It recharges its shields at about half the speed that a real fighter recharges at. And with its total of 54 tons of weapon space available, the Clipper can't pack as much punch as a real fighter. At least the Hawk maneuvers and recharges like a fighter. Granted, the Clipper is an acceptable substitute if you haven't got much money, but don't fall into the trap of considering the Clipper to be a serious combat vessel.
Paradigm
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Quote
Originally posted by Paradigm:
**One last point: the Clipper is not a fighter. It is a good, solid general-purpose ship, but it is no fighter. It's acceleration and turning are both slow enough to make it's overall maneuverability lag. It recharges its shields at about half the speed that a real fighter recharges at. And with its total of 54 tons of weapon space available, the Clipper can't pack as much punch as a real fighter. At least the Hawk maneuvers and recharges like a fighter. Granted, the Clipper is an acceptable substitute if you haven't got much money, but don't fall into the trap of considering the Clipper to be a serious combat vessel.
**
In the EV scenario, clippers are used as fighters by pirates. They are effective against the cheaper ships (freighter, courier, defender?, scout, shuttle). Occasionally the clipper defeats mantas and patrol ships too. When manipulating hawk stats, the clipper must be considered a threat.
In human hands, the clipper is an armed courier that is upgraded into a workable fighter.
(This message has been edited by magicianeer (edited 07-18-2001).)
Quote
Originally posted by magicianeer:
**In the EV scenario, clippers are used as fighters by pirates...
**
Well the fact that pirates use clippers for raiding doesn't mean they are necessarily fighters. Pirates in EVO use Helians for similar mid-level raiding, but nobody would suggest that a Helian is a fighter. Pirates in EV could just as easily use scoutships to pick off freighters, couriers, shuttles, and so on, but that doesn't make them fighters either. In my opinion Clippers are simply slightly better-than-average armed courier or light freight vessels.
Sure, the Clipper can be a threat to Hawks, and I can see why you would include it in the discussion. But I still don't consider the Clipper to be a fighter, as it doesn't have the characteristics that I associate with a fighter. To me, the most important things a fighter should have are a good shield recharge, good maneuverability (not just top speed), and a good weapons complement. The Clipper has okay weapons, but it's only mediocre on the other two. When I figure in the cost to upgrade its maneuverability and shielding, its attraction starts to fade for me.
This isn't to say that the Clipper is not capable of fighting, and I agree that a human can build a pretty tough little ship out of one. To me, it's similar to the Arada from EVO: both can be upgraded into fairly able combat ships (the Arada more so), but neither is a true fighter in the strict sense. I would actually be inclined to place an upgraded Clipper (or Arada) into the category of gunship: bigger and less maneuverable than a fighter, but still able to pack some punch.
Quote
In human hands, the clipper is an armed courier that is upgraded into a workable fighter.
A workable combat ship, yes, but not an optimal one.
Paradigm
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I personally think the Hawk is awesome, but afterall, it is classified as a "light fighter." If I were to moderate the ship realistically, I would arm it this way:
1 Missile Rack, 3 Missiles
4 Laser Cannons
2 Javelin Pods, 50 Javelin Rockets
Even then, that's a gracious amount of firepower for a light fighter.
CEO of the Corsair Development Team
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