In the intrest of Confederate politics, I thought it nessesary, in all fairness, to respond to the public (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum6&topic;=001359")posting by the Rebelion(/url) in a new thread, where confederates can feel safe to reply.

All of the claims in that memo are typical Rebel propoganda. Period.

Section 1: The Cause Factor
How can you possibly say that there can be no debate about this? The bottom line is, no matter what your personal or political viewpoints are towards the Confederation as a whole, the Rebelion decided to remedy the situation with bloodshed. So who's the evil power here? The rebelion seems to be on a crusade to prove that power = evil. Not so. This 'evil power' is what promotes trade, and allows simple pilots to go from shuttlecraft owners to millionares in a matter of years.
And to compare the rebelion to the American revolutionaries is completely incorrect. America's revolution was started by an attack by Britian on their own land. The Rebelion started this civil war by attacking INNOCENT confederate trade routes. The Confederation is protecting itself, not trying to initiate some insurrection, as the Rebelion would like you to believe.

Section 2: The Destroyer Factor
The rebelion would like you to believe that it can produce as many Destroyers as the confederation can Frigate. Come on, think about that. Everyone knows that Destroyers are shielded frieghters, and manta fighters are left over from the great war. The truth is, the Rebelion is scrapping to get any ships (and pilots) they can get. The fact that a Destroyer can measure to a frigate is a moot point. Put a Destroyer up against a few Frigates and Cruisers, and you'll see what the final outcome of this war will be.

Section 3: The Strategic Factor
The entire point of this section is to make you believe that the Confederation is looking for the perfect oppertunity to blindly attack Rebel strongholds. This is, again, pointless, but the Confederation is only intrested in doing what it can to protect itself and it's citizens. If you want to see the truth, all you have to do is look at any galactic map. Look, the rebelion forms a complete circle around all Confederate systems. If this doesn't look like agressive tactics, I don't know what does. All the rebelion is doing is preventing the Confederation from expanding. And wether they know it or not, they're preventing progress. Who knows how many systems out there are rich in untapped resources. The Rebelion doesn't have the funding or manpower to even discover them, and they're preventing the Confederation from reaching them.

In conclusion, the rebelion has to keep feeding you these lies to make sure that everyone thinks of them as the 'good' power, because if they stop, you'll begin to realize all the things I've discussed here.
Lets simplify things. When was the last time you saw a Confederate warship attack an unarmed trader?

The Confederation wants only to protect itself, nothing more.

END TRANSMISSION
Message Source:
John 'Jazz' Craig
Commander, USS Enterprise

(This message has been edited by The Jazzman (edited 04-08-2001).)

...the confederation is never safe from the rebellion...

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that's just it, the 'feds only want themselves protected. They care diddlysquat about anybody else. They only care about those that were not overthrown in the great war against the aliens. Levo cared squat about this, that's why they refused to join the 'feds. The Rebellion only attacks pirates and 'feds, not simple traders. The 'feds get mixed up in other peoples business too. I helped the Letheneans against a raid from the Cydonians. The Cydonians didn't care 'cos my legal status wasn't affected. But the **** 'feds cot pissed that I had helped Lethe, and I became a criminal in over half of their space. So... am I right or wrong that the 'feds suck big time.
LONG LIVE THE REBELLION!!!!!!!!!!!
HEHEHE (no offense)

(This message has been edited by Ultimate Rebel (edited 04-08-2001).)

I'm a Rebel supporter, but Jazzman needs some help:

THE SHIPS:
It's easy to say the Rebellion have better ships, and wow, it's even true. Plus,
the destroyer is much cheaper. But look at it - the Rebellion live off pirating
and funding. The Confederation have trade routes, and with the money the Astex
are bringing in for them alone they can build more Confed frigates than the Rebels
can build destroyers.

Plus, add up all the ships. Add up average ships in system, and defence fleets,
for both sides. The Confeds have nearly twice as many ships. The only reason
you see them at near equal is because the Confeds want to keep their people
alive - they want to win the war fairly. The Rebels throw all their ships at the
Confeds are don't gain any ground, and the Confeds calmly hold them back with only
the ships they build in that system, with their true army waiting in Sol, Sirius
and Barnard, waiting for a chance to strike without killing too many people on
either side.

Why else wouldn't they attack if they have that many numbers compared to the Rebels?

Also, think out Ruby. It's out there - a lone planet - all on it's own, fending off
the Rebels, with nowhere to run. Have you ever seen Ruby low on ships? They have a
great fleet there, holding against the Rebels. And considering that they still
develop weapons, they must have the power to get fleets through to the centre
on a regular basis.

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Don't play with changing names:
Esponer - 130 posts
Paladin - Nearly 100 posts
Sylver - 1 post

Quote

Originally posted by Ultimate Rebel:
**that's just it, the 'feds only want themselves protected. They care diddlysquat about anybody else. They only care about those that were not overthrown in the great war against the aliens. Levo cared squat about this, that's why they refused to join the 'feds. The Rebellion only attacks pirates and 'feds, not simple traders. The 'feds get mixed up in other peoples business too. I helped the Letheneans against a raid from the Cydonians. The Cydonians didn't care 'cos my legal status wasn't affected. But the **** 'feds cot pissed that I had helped Lethe, and I became a criminal in over half of their space. So... am I right or wrong that the 'feds suck big time.
LONG LIVE THE REBELLION!!!!!!!!!!!
HEHEHE (no offense)

(This message has been edited by Ultimate Rebel (edited 04-08-2001).)**

Did you think that maybe thats because you blew up ships? I've done the same thing but for Cydonia and it pissed of the rebellion.

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"You have committed a fatal error and your existence must be terminated." Windows error message.

That depends more on your legal status in Confed or Rebel worlds when you do something wrong. Doing something like that without a decent legal status will effect your standing a lot more than a pilot that's been killing pirates all over the place. And as far as becoming a Criminal after one mission, I don't see how that's possible, you must've done something besides that. Legal status simply doesn't change that much for a government when you're not doing a mission for them, or against them.

Likely you'd been killing Confeds if they're that mad at you, and/or working for the Rebellion.

Quote

Originally posted by The Jazzman:
**When was the last time you saw a Confederate warship attack an unarmed trader?

**

When was the last time you saw a trader working for the Rebels? There aren't any, and if there were, I'm sure those lousy Confeds would attack.

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"English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England!"-Homer Simpson

I attack Rebel traders all the time.
They're called pirates.

Good one, Jazzman.

Another thing -

Just because a trader is down as Confed doesn't mean he/she is involved in the
military.

It's just like saying that English doctors, teachers and taxi drivers are
involved in the military, and that it's fine if some Nazis start shooting them.

The Rebels are out there shooting civilians, however you like to put it. And
have you noticed that Confeds defend normal traders, but Rebels don't? Confeds
defend loads of people, and Rebels just fight.

Who's the good guy, then?

And about why Rebels don't have freighters. It's because they don't trade.

I'm not joking. Rebels don't have good trade routes <for themselves>, so they get
all their money from other sources. Now, I wonder whether these other souces
are entirely legal..............

PS: Down with the Confederations tyrants!

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Don't play with changing names:
Esponer - 130 posts
Paladin - Nearly 100 posts
Sylver - 1 post

(This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited 04-09-2001).)

actually, if you talk to rebel ships they sometimes say "greetings from a merchant of the confederation", ever read the book "heir to the empire"? they used warships as trade ships 'cos they were low on freighters. The Rebellion does have trade routes. They just don't waste their time creating ships for all those different things, i mean: bulk freighters, light freighters, shuttlecrafts, couriers, executive transports. they waste their time on that. And they just have big defense fleets for sol, centauri, and ruby. Why, 'cos they're scared of dying! They want someone else to die so they don't have to. And rebels DO defend traders from pirates. Have you noticed that the first to get shot is the pirate, then the 2 gov'ts take care of each other, normally the rebel survives unless he is totally outnumbered.

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I didn't mean from pirates. I meant from an actual players. Confeds get up your
nose - not exactly nice but it's the more decent thing, when you start shooting
people.

And rebels don't have freighters because they have so little trade that they
just use the limited capacity in warships.

And Confeds DO have more ships. It's not a matter of how they set them up, they
simply have more ships. Loads more. And with such a strong economy, which I'm
still arguing, they only stand equal with the Rebels now because they are waiting
for the chance to strike.

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Don't play with changing names:
Esponer - 130 posts
Paladin - Nearly 100 posts
Sylver - 1 post

Quote

Originally posted by SilverDragon:
**I'm a Rebel supporter, but Jazzman needs some help:

THE SHIPS:
It's easy to say the Rebellion have better ships, and wow, it's even true. Plus,
the destroyer is much cheaper. But look at it - the Rebellion live off pirating
and funding. The Confederation have trade routes, and with the money the Astex
are bringing in for them alone they can build more Confed frigates than the Rebels
can build destroyers.

Plus, add up all the ships. Add up average ships in system, and defence fleets,
for both sides. The Confeds have nearly twice as many ships. The only reason
you see them at near equal is because the Confeds want to keep their people
alive - they want to win the war fairly. The Rebels throw all their ships at the
Confeds are don't gain any ground, and the Confeds calmly hold them back with only
the ships they build in that system, with their true army waiting in Sol, Sirius
and Barnard, waiting for a chance to strike without killing too many people on
either side.

Why else wouldn't they attack if they have that many numbers compared to the Rebels?

Also, think out Ruby. It's out there - a lone planet - all on it's own, fending off
the Rebels, with nowhere to run. Have you ever seen Ruby low on ships? They have a
great fleet there, holding against the Rebels. And considering that they still
develop weapons, they must have the power to get fleets through to the centre
on a regular basis.

**

You say these rebel destroyers are cheaper.... do you say you can buy them?

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Quote

What the people say is law. There is no honor in the Lands of Mizra.
-Mizra

Bah, that Destroyer stuff that Jazzman posted is pure crap. Look at the facts and specs, Jazz, it's plainly obvious that the Destroyer can not only beat the Confed frigate, it is also smaller and takes up less resources, manpower, and credits than the frigate, and thus is easier to build. Besides, the pure fact that it's an upgraded frieghter means that the Rebels can make more of them. You have obviously been blinded by the propoganda of the Confederates.

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To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
--------------
Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).

Yes, I'm not arguing that point.
But as everyone has confirmed, the Confederation obviously produces MANY more ships than the Rebelion.
So it doesn't matter if a Destroyer can destroy a Frigate, because 3 or 4 Frigates and a Cruiser can take out a Destroyer with hardly a scratch to show for it.

How often do we see that many ships grouped of that power? That would be a blessing, i'm trying to capture one of those bastards right now.

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Quote

What the people say is law. There is no honor in the Lands of Mizra.
-Mizra

If you do a lot of trading/missions within the core systems, you see lots of big Confederate fleets like that. It's usally a Crusier escorted by 3 or 4 Frigates and patrol ships.

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The Jazzman

Quote

Originally posted by The Jazzman:
Yes, I'm not arguing that point.
But as everyone has confirmed, the Confederation obviously produces MANY more ships than the Rebelion.
So it doesn't matter if a Destroyer can destroy a Frigate, because 3 or 4 Frigates and a Cruiser can take out a Destroyer with hardly a scratch to show for it.

How is it so obvious? The only reason the Confeds have a lot of ships is because they're all left over from the Great War! And here are some facts to support me:

Rebel Destroyer = 240 tons

Confed Frigate = 350 tons

The frigate weighs 110 tons more than the Rebel Destroyer. That is obviously a lot of stuff, and it's not weapons either. In fact, the Destroyer has considerably more weapons than the frigate does. Even if the Core Worlds produce a lot of materials, Confed Frigates should be hard to build. Now, let's see how your theory about how the Confeds can produce a cruiser and several frigates holds out:

Rebel Destroyer = 240 tons

Confed Fleet (1 cruiser, three frigates) = 350 + 350 + 350 + 1000 = 2,050 tons

So, are you saying that the Confeds can produce 2,050 tons per each 240 tons the Rebels produce? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! The Rebels can produce more ships than the Confeds easily! I don't see why you think why you do!

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To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
--------------
Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).

Think of it this way, Carnotaur.

Say the Rebels and Confeds have equal ships.

The Rebels must put some of them into trading, or they have NO income and
can't produce 1 ton to 2050 tons. So, how many do they send? Obviously, they
put some cargo on every ship and do the trade routes while performing patrol
runs.

But say the Rebels have 50 ships and the Confeds have 50 ships. The patrol route
and the trade route CAN'T always coincide, and taking that basic ratio the
Confeds have about 125 freighters - to 50 warships. And that is including the
Confed ships that defend planets.

So, the Rebels have 50 ships doing small trade routes where possible, and the Confeds
have 125 freighters running along the best trade routes. The Confeds are going to
make a LOT more. And I mean a LOT.

Plus, if you look at the various trade routes only in Confed space (near central
Independant included because Confeds hold these places more than the Rebels do)
then you'll see that there are quite a few goods one. But if you look in Rebel
space you'll be disappointed. Except for a few, there aren't many good trade
routes at all.

Plus, if the Rebels are trading with their main fleet, then that means that they
are losing hundreds of tons of cargo very quickly. The Confeds are losing freighters
to Rebels, but only a few, and only in one or two systems.

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OK, the Rebel Destroyer costs less because it's worth less. I agree with everything that jazzman said, the Rebels are a bunch of poorly organized fringe worlds with some coverted freighters to "defend" them (and there not doing a very good job at that). Furthermore everybody likes the rebels because the game had us leaning toward them, did we ever stop and think about this from the Confederation viewpoint before we ran around shouting death to the Confeds! death to the confeds!
You could also say that the Rebels contributed to the rise of the Pirates, if the Confederate navy were out there there would probably be a significantly lower number of Pirates, instead the Rebels have neglected their space and caused a growing galactic problem.

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ZidAz

Quote

Originally posted by ZidAz:
**OK, the Rebel Destroyer costs less because it's worth less. I agree with everything that jazzman said, the Rebels are a bunch of poorly organized fringe worlds with some coverted freighters to "defend" them (and there not doing a very good job at that). Furthermore everybody likes the rebels because the game had us leaning toward them, did we ever stop and think about this from the Confederation viewpoint before we ran around shouting death to the Confeds! death to the confeds!
You could also say that the Rebels contributed to the rise of the Pirates, if the Confederate navy were out there there would probably be a significantly lower number of Pirates, instead the Rebels have neglected their space and caused a growing galactic problem.
**

I disagree. Because of the Confeds stupidity they let Pirates start in the first place! In fact, the Rebels are doing a better job than the Confeds at eliminating Pirates because they are closer to them and thus it is easier for them to attack!

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To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
--------------
Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).