K' When my game(The Fall of Abodon) is released (not soon, but eventually) I intend to use my shareware method (described here: (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum48/HTML/001921.html#")http://www.ambrosias...ML/001921.html#(/url) ). This means that because I am working by myself and not contracted with anybody else I get all of the money that comes through. Unfortunately, my game is going to be mainly availible via the net. The net is worldwide. So anybody that has access to the net can get it. How am I going to get money for my game if some one in, for instance, europe wants it? The costs for sending a measly envelope is like $100 per sq. inch of enveleope.

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Whose cruel idea was it to put an 'S' in lisp?

Quote

Originally posted by BlackLite:
Unfortunately, my game is going to be mainly availible via the net. The net is worldwide. So anybody that has access to the net can get it. How am I going to get money for my game if some one in, for instance, europe wants it? The costs for sending a measly envelope is like $100 per sq. inch of enveleope.

Get a pay pal account.

Also, I believe that you are over-exagerating the cost of shipping overseas. A small envelope with a money-order ought to be only $5-$10 at most.

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Also you could just make the game downloadable and if they buy the game you just give them a cd key.

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Thanks,
GrahamVH
graham@warcraftcentral.com
Coldstone Developer

Quote

Also you could just make the game downloadable and if they buy the game you just give them a cd key.

I dunno. That it SOOOO easy to break. Even blizzard, one of the biggest companies ever, doesn't have nearly a foolproof CD key system. Using something like CGE, I'd say... I don't think so.

Although...

What you could to is, give them the demo game, but include the entire rest of the game in plug-in format (This would only be practacle if you automatically loaded all plugins, and if you weren't going to make any other plug-ins) and just use a program to encrypt it with a password.

Although now that I think about it, my idea stinks. Don't listen to me

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"Stiney! Get me a danish!"

(Deleted by the Zerowarrior)

(This message has been edited by zerowarrior150 (edited 06-05-2003).)

So why don't you just have a download or cd or something that only has part of the game (use this as a demo) and then have a place maybe on the web that they would register to, and then they would get (a) code(s) to unlock the rest of the game along with a link to the rest of the game. I know I had another idea before, but I don't want to let everybody know about it until I myself test it to make sure it works. This seems to be the best idea for now,and it'salmost similar to ogrebob's idea.
-Zerowarrior

(This message has been edited by zerowarrior150 (edited 06-05-2003).)

the best system i can think of is making a demo, letting them have that, then if they buy the game, they can download from a server logging in with a psswd. once they get the psswd the serial is canned so no oone else can use it. then when they register the game its best that the game registers online so they cant use a hacked serial and make sure its a one use serial and dont use a algorithm to make them.

making them download the full game from your server makes it hard for someone to get your game and use a crack on it. if someone tries to distribute it, any decent cracker on the mac can find it.

the best thing you can do is the register online. bungie did tis with myth 2 but sort of. they let you play single and ip without a code but to get on thier server youd have to register online. if you could somehow force registration through a online app in your game this would cut down on piracy again unless someone made a crack.

the problem with blizzard is they use a algorithm that is hacked within two weeks and someoone generates a few million codes and they spread on the internet. if you use pre-made serials that you server recognizes you get rid of this like bungie. if someone makes a crack to kill the security within the game then you can actively pursue the web space that holds it and the isp will delete it. sure you may not get them all but odds are people are gonna have a hard time finding it.

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(url="http://"http://www.redknightentertainment.com/rkewerks/htmldavesworld/coldstonelinkspage.html")Coldstone Links For - Art, 3D, Animation, Problem Solving, Tips and tricks.(/url) Morvera ner Morden

(QUOTE)Originally posted by DJ:
(B)the best system i can think of is making a demo, letting them have that, then if they buy the game, they can download from a server logging in with a psswd. once they get the psswd the serial is canned so no oone else can use it. then when they register the game its best that the game registers online so they cant use a hacked serial and make sure its a one use serial and dont use a algorithm to make them.

This was the basis of my idea, I just didn't want to reveal all of that.

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"The fate of the world rests within your hands. Don't drop it" Michael Cimorelli Jr, 1999

Quote

This was the basis of my idea, I just didn't want to reveal all of that.

i didnt know if it would work right off the bat but i talked to my friend who runs my site, he said the server part with users logging on and letting them download it is cake. he even said you could make the server recognize how much of the game they got so if they crashed they can come back on without the server canning the serial number.

he said the latter part, aka online registration through the game, and protection software that limits a registered version being moved to another drive would take a bit of work.

my other friend CJ whos actually putting the game together in coldstone brought up a warning with coldstone though. he said if we make it for the peecee it would be subject to a whole nuther market of crackers which means a widely available crack would show up fast. since 99% of our market will most likely be mac im thinking just screw the pc market. even CJ agrees and hes been on a peecee his whole life. while it pisses him off that coldstone is mac only deep inside my little heart i smile with glee

unforteanatly i cant get this system up and running till after the 1st game at the earliest.

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(url="http://"http://www.redknightentertainment.com/rkewerks/htmldavesworld/coldstonelinkspage.html")Coldstone Links For - Art, 3D, Animation, Problem Solving, Tips and tricks.(/url) Morvera ner Morden

Quote

Originally posted by DJ:
**i didnt know if it would work right off the bat but i talked to my friend who runs my site, he said the server part with users logging on and letting them download it is cake. he even said you could make the server recognize how much of the game they got so if they crashed they can come back on without the server canning the serial number.

he said the latter part, aka online registration through the game, and protection software that limits a registered version being moved to another drive would take a bit of work.

my other friend CJ whos actually putting the game together in coldstone brought up a warning with coldstone though. he said if we make it for the peecee it would be subject to a whole nuther market of crackers which means a widely available crack would show up fast. since 99% of our market will most likely be mac im thinking just screw the pc market. even CJ agrees and hes been on a peecee his whole life. while it pisses him off that coldstone is mac only deep inside my little heart i smile with glee

unforteanatly i cant get this system up and running till after the 1st game at the earliest.

**

Sound to me like it should work though. Let me know if it works, you're probably closer to testing it than I am.

i just found this
(url="http://"http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell/cds.aspx")http://www.cafepress...o/sell/cds.aspx(/url)

i havnt been to cafepress in a few and thought it was wild.

so blacklite this is one option. if it works as it did before, someone purchases a cd with your product on it, they pay the shipping and handling and you set the price for your cd for a certain amount of profit above what cafepress charges for the making of etc. at the end of the month they write you a check and voila. whaddaya think. then again i dont know if this comes under ambrosias, uhmmm, legal thingy so you might have to pay royalties. no clue, thought it was interesting. it takes care of shipping, takes care of getting paid. very neat and tidy one stop shop.

there also going to have a comic book and book section or something in the future. that has me wired, cant wait to check it.

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(url="http://"http://www.redknightentertainment.com/rkewerks/htmldavesworld/coldstonelinkspage.html")Coldstone Links For - Art, 3D, Animation, Problem Solving, Tips and tricks.(/url) Morvera ner Morden

OK. I sent an email to David Dunham to try to clarify the issue, in a kind of final way. Here's the (substantive) text of what I said:

Quote

**
Now, as I understand the agreement, releasing games for free will cost you nothing, likewise as shareware. Recently on the Coldstone board you defined shareware as basically anything that isn't done under contract or agreement with a larger publisher - guys making themselves a game and selling it, without any third party marketing it, etc.

So, in a more concise way;

Freeware: what the name suggests: doesn't cost the customer anything. It's free.
Shareware: software that you can sell as an individual or small group, without the intervention publishers, like a deal with, say, Aspyr etc.
Commercial: contracted agreement with a publisher that involves you making the game, and it, promoting it, etc. Your cut is whatever is specified by contract.**

To this, David added:

Quote

**Let me amend the standard - any software that is packaged and sold is also considered commercial. I'm thinking there would have to a contract signed between the developers and cafepress, so that would also fall under my definition of commercial.

Licensing fees would be negotiated with the scope of the development team in mind.**

It appears that packaging and selling your project at all would be considered commercial, whether sold in a brick and mortar store, or over the web. If people are planning to release a demo, and then sell the full game on CD, that appears to be commercial publishing.

But I wouldn't take what I've said here as gospel truth. In fact, if and when you have a game ready, or getting ready to release, I'd recommend emailing Ambrosia, telling them about your game and how you plan to release it, and finding out how they'd treat it in terms of licensing. I assume these games will be treated on a case by case basis, and so I'd recommend emailing to find out about your particular case.

-Andiyar

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"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"

What I intend to do is place a shareware (as in you enter a code that you purchase to unclock it) copy on the internet and if they like it, then they wire me the money via paypal. Once the money is secured I send an e-mail containing the licensce code. They would then unlock the product. No shipping, no packaging, only internet transmissions of product and/or product key.
Also, here is another question: Is alocked copy of, EV Nova for example, considered a demo, commercial version or, something else such as a shareware copy?

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Whose cruel idea was it to put an 'S' in lisp?

Quote

Originally posted by BlackLite:
What I intend to do is place a shareware (as in you enter a code that you purchase to unclock it) copy on the internet and if they like it, then they wire me the money via paypal. Once the money is secured I send an e-mail containing the licensce code. They would then unlock the product. No shipping, no packaging, only internet transmissions of product and/or product key.

The problem here is that you can't insert such a code into Coldstone making a unique registration, indeed you can't really put such a code into Coldstone at all. You could store something as a global, for instance, but globals can't be checked/altered until the game itself is started. And, unfortunately, they aren't remembered outside the application except in save files.

Another way would be to, oh, create the majority of your project as a plugin, if people like the 'demo' plug then they can pay you, and you can send them a URL to download the complete scenario. However, this situation is rather piracy rampant, as the scenario isn't encrypted in any way. Even encrypting the download with a password wouldn't make much difference unless you kept changing the password and possibly the download. And, of course, once one person has the plugin, they can just reupload it to a warez site or server.

Quote

**
Also, here is another question: Is alocked copy of, EV Nova for example, considered a demo, commercial version or, something else such as a shareware copy?
**

Technically, it's crippleware. By todays market, it's probably shareware. Depends on who you ask.

-Andiyar

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"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"

I'd like to know how EV Nova does it. Specifically if possible. If not, oh well! I'm just having a difficult time trying to know how it's done or what software to purchase. I do like how EV does things. So if possible, I'd like to know how EV does it. (I'm feeling redundant today. Redundant.)

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-- Debra
Danillitphil Productions
(url="http://"http://www.danillitphil.com/graphics/index.html")www.danillitphil.com(/url)

prolly hand coding deb. thats what i was thinking ambrosia would help with if you published through them etc because its there deal on the server. i really have no clue though.

i have a small idea though, if alladin or, whats that other compression package......starts with a M.. anyway if they let you password a stuffed file you can password the compressed file to your game and put it on a link that you pass through email to purchaser. this way they have to find a link hidden somewhere and then have the right password. to keep this semi safe it would be VERY easy to change the password on the stuffit file every few days and move the link by a simple folder. were talking mostly automated work by the computer while you go do something else. this way only people who buy the game within the few day period could have thier friends pirate the game.

tell people who buy your game they have to download it within a few days etc. anybody who ccontacts you afterwards will wait on a mailing list for the redone link and password.

its the simplest yet very effective KISS way i can think of. basically old serials or links wont be able to pirate your game. it would simply take good organization and about 15 minutes every three days followed by the computer doing its thing in compressing and posting.

Another way would be to, oh, create the majority of your project as a plugin, if people like the 'demo' plug then they can pay you, and you can send them a URL to download the complete scenario. However, this situation is rather piracy rampant, as the scenario isn't encrypted in any way. Even encrypting the download with a password wouldn't make much difference unless you kept changing the password and possibly the download. And, of course, once one person has the plugin, they can just reupload it to a warez site or server.

you really cant stop a warez site or server but the former prevention will easily stop 3/4 of joe moe out there. warez sites are easy to shutdown, servers *@^&~! suck unless you have a lawyer. we have done it several times at my former employer when they tried ripping off our custom made automation scripts and panoramic technology.

but i mean, anyway you look at it, the do it yourself method is more likely safer than anything ambrosia uses. once it gets to a mr warez server its all over any. thats where online registration and online play come in as additional security.

(This message has been edited by DJ (edited 06-18-2003).)

Well, I'm not too sure that any of these ways are totally 'secure'. You can do whatever you want to lock the game, but bottom line is that once that person has an unlocked copy, he or she can really do whatever they want to do with it, ESPECIALLY if it's on the internet. Maybe for whoever's looking to go commerical, they should have it in box/case form and get permission from whoever to physically sell their product. But them again, that person could go home and burn a copy for their buddy or whatever, thereby defeating the purpose. I don't relly think anybody has a near-perfect solution for this problem, and if they do people will find a way around it. Maybe use multible techniques, like encrypting the stuffed game file with a password and then having different 'layers' of passwords in order for the file to unstuff. Even if there was a way to ask for a password everytime you used the game, to check to see that that person legally owned a copy, but I think that would get old fast.

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"The fate of the world rests within your hands. Don't drop it." Michael Cimorelli Jr.

Quote

Originally posted by Debra:
I'd like to know how EV Nova does it. Specifically if possible. If not, oh well! I'm just having a difficult time trying to know how it's done or what software to purchase.

Well, EVN, Coldstone, and PoG all use the same licensing/registration system, which was developed in-house by Ambrosia. There's been a fair amount of discussion on both the Ambrosia webboards and the MacNN forums (forums.macnn.com) about the system, so if you want the nitty-gritty, you may have to do some searching. There's a post in the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/newsdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=14&forum;=*The+Ambrosia+Times+Newsletter&DaysPrune;=25&article;=000052&startpoint;=")Ambrosia Times Newsletter(/url) that you may find useful, for a start.

The real trick, which (not surprisingly) has not been explained by anyone from Ambrosia or Beenox, is how to tie such a registration system into your game. It's something that would have to be implemented in the actual program code, rather than through the Coldstone editor, as far as I know.

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'You can either be on the stage, just a performer, just going through the lines...or you can be outside it, and know how the script works, where the scenery hangs, and where the trapdoors are. Isn't that better?'
-- T. Pratchett
Please correct me if I'm wrong, and expect me to return the favor.

Another thought: With the coldstone game engine, and the shareware-ization (real word?) process I described here: (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/forum48/HTML/001921.html#")http://www.ambrosias....L/001921.html#(/url), a good thing about it is that you have to register each time you play the game to a point. Once there, then you have to register. If you start over and you reach that point again, you need to re-register. And who would want to burn a game along with a saved game? I mean if you were to play somebody elses game you would be bored because you would have no Idea what was going on. The first person would have made all of the decisions leading up to where the saved game was making it the first persons game, not the seconds.

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Whose cruel idea was it to put an 'S' in lisp?

Also, with ambrosia software, (I think this is what you mean debra) they have a preference file labled "The Games License" that is modified when one registers. Even ambrosia softwares registration method has loopholes.

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Whose cruel idea was it to put an 'S' in lisp?