The proposed solution for many coldstone problems is some elaborate scheme of using multiple events to order something to do something. So, I had an idea. Why not make coldstone a little more flexible in what you can access for spesific sprites? Basically, what I'm asking for in this thread is that rather than adress each one of the requests to Coldstone, the ability to "work around" these things would be increased.

What I'm thinking of here is like making escape velocity plugins, where you would have a library of the sprites you used, and you would connect objects to sprites. Ship 204 used graphic 6525, and the description you'd see when you were about to buy that ship would be text 1337 or something like that.

So, how about rather than automatically going to a prespecified sprite or map layer for an object you create, why not modify coldstone so that the developer tells it to use sprite X and appear on map layer Y? This could also be applied to combat, as a GREAT method of faking an allies system. You would tell one NPC to go to another spesific NPC, and attack it.

Another example; you're making a weapon. Rather than going into the game options and changing the weapons sprite, how about entering some ID or file path that for the exact image you want to use.

And for the player character's class, how about being able to use some global variable for an ID# that would be linked to each class. That way, you could start out with character class gb_0001. In game, the player would see unmade_character or something like that for their class as the global would be set to that ID at the beginning of the game . Then they tell the game what class they want to be inside of an event that the developer put there, and that would set gb_0001 to a different number, thus changing the class ID. Presto! Class change.

I can certainly say that this spesific thing would adress many of my wishes for Coldstone at the same time.

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Not necessarily in that fashion it is possible to create a game/segment of a game using generic file names and performing generic actions and simply leaving detailed instructions/ naming each event so that you know what to edit next...
but this is complete hand holding, if someone wants to sit down and build a generic template that's great, but its a completely selfless act and you'll probably just get used...frankly its not worth the effort.

Further more your generic game would probably be a sort of sub engine, similarly the way that coldstone automatically calls on certain events at certain times, this developer wold just end up doing all the elaborate scheming for you, using the call event,conditionals and change globals at the specificed times...This is an engine
(by definition means a means of accomplishment , it has fulfilled that)
there is going to be some work involved, hard cuss and swear work, believe me attempting to code all this would be much more difficult than using the drop down lists and menus, and conditionals. The other reason why you have to do all these schemes is because coldstone is open ended, remember the gigantic 100+ post on whether it would be 'spell points or memorization' or 'turn based or real time', while the developers obviously made a decision in all manners as to the suggested specifications of the games you make, these specs are not enforced. If you really want to design a game from a generic template, use the medieval game...that's what its there for.

If coldstone was capable of registering greater number of collisions at higher speeds, the possibilities would be vastly expanded.
side scrollers, with gravity
fighting games with active cameras
racing games(currently possible but substandard)
More variable control is something that i definitely want, mainly...damage and negating predetermined input.

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Let's be honest.... I'm not sure what you are talking about, but it doesn't sound what I'm talking about.

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That's mighty white of you, Mikee. Hate to break it to you, but not everyone is so shallow and prejudiced that they fear being shot by "black people".
—Andrew Welch

...double post

(This message has been edited by ellrx (edited 10-31-2002).)

I know exactly what you're talking about, the ability to name objects and direct/refer to them by id, in game and during development.

Now what i was telling you that this workaround can already be accomplished, you simply haven't stopped to find out how, you want the shareware genie to appear and instantly modify the engine at your command to your exact specific ations, this is unlikely and would prevent a large sum of pre existing projects from being developed as well as turn away users who don't care to wrte down id numbers/ reference them from a table...

What i'm telling you is that you can set up a generic game that is set up in a structured manner and call/assign names for each one like weapon0001 or object0001 etc. if you name you objects in such a fashion a later/end user can swap them out for files of the same name, and if you've named your actions and events logical/informative names they can alter/adjust these events expediently.

This is a more probable/immediate solution than waiting for Beenox to redesign the engine around direct user input.
Coldstone is very flexible, that is why you have to plot out elaborate events and multiple variables, because technically you are codding in a feature that does not exist, and this will take time and effort on your part. These features are not predesigned because they wanted to leave it open, and like i said before if someone wants to sit around an make modular plugins for multiple characters,turnBased combat,powerBars ec and release them to the public cool but its not likely/nor is it necessary for every game that is created.

If you still don't understand...::

(This message has been edited by ellrx (edited 10-31-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by ellrx:
I know exactly what you're talking about, the ability to name objects and direct/refer to them by id, in game and during development.

is not the same as:

Quote

Originally posted by Madman
_
So, how about rather than automatically going to a prespecified sprite or map layer for an object you create, why not modify coldstone so that the developer tells it to use sprite X and appear on map layer Y? This could also be applied to combat, as a GREAT method of faking an allies system. You would tell one NPC to go to another spesific NPC, and attack it._

It seems to me that Madman wants more low-level access to the engine that's not available currently, no matter how many files you name 0001, 0002, 0003

While a fine idea in principle, the fact is that from what I see, ColdStone simply isn't going to get new features. Beenox has gone to work on their new game and is taking quite a while to release even bug-fixes( 1.0.2 anyone?) Certainly the prospect for major new additions to ColdStone anytime soon seems rather dim.

And really, once you keep asking for more and more low-level engine access the question becomes why not just use one of the simpler programming languages out there that are designed to easily create ANY game(not just RPGs)( TNT Basic , METAL Basic, or even (url="http://"http://www.gnu.org/software/gcc/gcc.html")gcc(/url) (eep!) ) Yes, ColdStone is easier but if it can't do what you want...

(This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-31-2002).)

you as welll, have missed the point...
as i said that is great and i myself have aksed several times to have more control over variables, for those of you still subscribedto the testing list visit the archive and search under 'look but don't touch variables' for more info.

i also just got through saying that the likelyhood that the egine would be reconfigured to almost an assembly-esque low level is not bery likely because it negates the purpose of the engine, you're not supposed to have to do the dirty work, remember object names,,id, reference tables, this is adverse to the design of the engine...as i also said the best solution to this is to build a generic game nad disregard all pre sets, this wold involve a large sum of events and scripting and would probably add 800k in just events alone to the size of a project. In short what MadMan wants is possible, with the current engine but this would involve the elaborate scheming(really just careful planning/abstract thinking) that everyone seems to think they can avoid. The problem is everyone want someone else to do it with the old "this feature should be standard", point being coldstone has plug in capability, and is in the hands of more than enough people,who spend time petitioning...THe engine is whole, there is nothing truly missing, those are open ended future additions, and as everyone keeps saying beenox has moved on to another project, which is na industrial strength/next gen console/PC 3D engine, the same crew that took more than 5years to bring you th current version of CGE, so how long do you think it'll be before they're ready to completely tear down a fully functional product just so people can report more 'fatal errors' when its really a matter of better documentation the eventual release of more source code/plugins...

but by no means will it be easy for either beenox or himself(even if he does switch to a coding environ he'll spend equal/greater amount of time coding...there is no easy way out)

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(This message has been edited by ellrx (edited 10-31-2002).)

I may be incorrect, but it was my understanding that allies(which seem to be one of the things he wants) are impossible with the current engine/editor situation, no matter how many events you add.

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look! its a signature!

Quote

Originally posted by Patrick:
I may be incorrect, but it was my understanding that allies(which seem to be one of the things he wants) are impossible with the current engine/editor situation, no matter how many events you add.

Mr. Patrick,

You are more or less correct. There is not a functional ally system in Coldstone. There have been several theories put forth on how to implement one, though none are what I would call "good." Depending on your needs some of the workarounds will work. But for a true party system, CGE just isn't it.

Yes we can spend a lot of time whining and complaining about it. But no where in the documentation nor in the advertisements does it list that CGE supports a party system, and I don't hold out much hope for Beenox to add it in a update for CGE. Sure it would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

As has been said before you should pick the right tool for the job. If you are designing a game that has a heavy emphasis on parties, then CGE isn't the tool you should be using.

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Ok, here is an event example that I am thinking of. Here are the things I hope to establish with this.

-have an NPC that attacks another NPC, then moves onto another NPC.
-Create an area of effect spell.

Ok, I've got my battlefield map and a bunch of solders on opposite sides. I want one spesific solder to move to the middle of the battlefield, and another spesific soldier on the other side to do the same. Then, they will attack eachother. With this, I can then take the same event and turn it into other similar events where the player will have allies in battle.

After that, a powerful wizard will hurl a giant fireball at the other side. It will create an animation of an explosion, and a conditional event that checks to see if a character or monster is within x number of movment tiles away from where the spell hit. If true, than that monster will suffer between X and Y amount of damage. There you go, area of effect spell.

Not just that, but you could turn that into area of effect actions that can generate revenue for the player (requested before), and an area of effect attribute that could be applied to almost any relevant event string.

Ok ellrx, maybe I should specify my ultimate goal in this. I want coldstone to have increased functionality. Take your bull**** somewhere else please.

/me ponders a troll 'rx' forum clan

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(/bitterness)

Quote

Originally posted by Stark Bledfast:
**Mr. Patrick,

Yes we can spend a lot of time whining and complaining about it. But no where in the documentation nor in the advertisements does it list that CGE supports a party system, and I don't hold out much hope for Beenox to add it in a update for CGE. Sure it would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

As has been said before you should pick the right tool for the job. If you are designing a game that has a heavy emphasis on parties, then CGE isn't the tool you should be using.

**

This thread wanders worse than most. There is a germ of an idea here, tho; one currently being cultured by a few. Which is; to create script modules, small open-source lumps that can handle some of the more confusing tasks (the timer, for instance. Or some rude semblance of a party system.)

I also see as useful the creation of a generic template game similar to the Medieval template, but stripped to its essence. I too have struggled to get all the little maps and events in order just to get to the first play screen, and this would be a fine task for templating. After all, isn't part of the concept of Coldstone that someone without the patience for programming can still get a basic game running?

Between that genetic template, and specific plug-in modules for certain effects (use which ones are useful for the game at hand, ignore the others), there is little space for anything more. Much as I, too, enjoy the freedom of a resEdit environment, I don't see how creating numerical references to the Coldstone asset system improves my workflow.

And at the risk of starting the flames going again, I had to react to the oft-repeated statement above (no offence, Mr. Bledfast; you merely provided a convenient quote). Here's the blurb from Ambrosia's own listing; (bold-face is mine)

Quote

Coldstone 1.0.1
Coldstone is an easy to use game development tool that allows you to create professional stand-alone games that run on Mac OS, Mac OS X, and Microsoft Windows.

The full version of Coldstone ships on a CD chocked full of artwork that you can use right out of the box, or you can easily import your own artwork, sounds and music to truly make it your own creation. Coldstone's powerful layout engine allows you to place your artwork just by pointing and clicking, creating anything from static backgrounds to full screen scrolling. The animation editor allows you to bring your characters to life, giving them each a unique look and path to follow. The scripting engine ties it all together, allowing you to create complex interactions with an easy to use icon-driven interface.

Imagine a set of powerful yet easy to use tools for constructing your very own stand-alone game... no rules... a completely blank sheet of paper on which to pen your masterpiece, your imagination is the only limit on what you can create. This is exactly what Beenox, in conjunction with Ambrosia Software, Inc., is bringing to you with the Coldstone game engine. Want to see for yourself? You can download a demo version and get started right now!

Strongly implied here is that Coldstone supports RPGs as the term is generally understood. Which is to say, with a party option. Notice it does not mention that you can shoot at things, or talk to NPCs; these are so implicitly part of the any conception of a game it was not necessary to detail them. So it is for the former.

I was not confused when the time came to pay my registration. It was, however, several days of studying the manual and testing events and looking for posts (this was the early days, folks, just after the game was released, and most of the commentary on the subject had yet to be written) before I was sure that there was no fighting between NPCs, much less any hint of a party system. So it isn't -- or at least it wasn't -- as obvious as some make it out to be. The existance of a full-function demo, however, means any purchase made under that particular misunderstanding is solely the fault of the purchaser.

And just to keep things in perspective....I don't like party systems, I don't choose to play them, and I have never had an urge to create one within Coldstone or any other engine. I took the risk of this flame merely to point out a dangerous straw man in what should be careful and considerate debate. Let us not, please, place false arguments in the mouths of others. My apologies, Mr. Bledfast, if I have done the same to you.

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"I know the stranger's name."
Turandot

Quote

Originally posted by Madman:
**Ok, here is an event example that I am thinking of. Here are the things I hope to establish with this.

-have an NPC that attacks another NPC, then moves onto another NPC.
-Create an area of effect spell.

Ok, I've got my battlefield map and a bunch of solders on opposite sides. I want one spesific solder to move to the middle of the battlefield, and another spesific soldier on the other side to do the same. Then, they will attack eachother. With this, I can then take the same event and turn it into other similar events where the player will have allies in battle.

After that, a powerful wizard will hurl a giant fireball at the other side. It will create an animation of an explosion, and a conditional event that checks to see if a character or monster is within x number of movment tiles away from where the spell hit. If true, than that monster will suffer between X and Y amount of damage. There you go, area of effect spell.

Not just that, but you could turn that into area of effect actions that can generate revenue for the player (requested before), and an area of effect attribute that could be applied to almost any relevant event string.

Ok ellrx, maybe I should specify my ultimate goal in this. I want coldstone to have increased functionality. Take your bull**** somewhere else please.

/me ponders a troll 'rx' forum clan

**

Your event/ epic battle scene is very possible, and in fact i know exactly how to do it and was prepared to share with you how up until i read the last 3 lines of your post which i had missed all the way up until i hit the reply button...in short you are a rube.
but let's follow the scenario shall we, i share with oyu exactly how this epic play would be configured using pseudo code that could easily be reutilized under any coding environment substituting my "foo"s and 'Bar's with coldstone specific terminology, detailed and intricate to a fault, you complain that it is too much scheming andd that its not worth it and perhaps even end up coding it yourself in let's say TNT Basic, you find out that you'd be doing exacctly the same thing i just got through telling you. But because you get to look at pretty syntax colored verbs,boolean expressions and runtime errors and exceptions instead...your choice, but the saddest part is that the solution is easy your just a lazy sob with no direcction or knowledge fo anything that isn't prefab out of the box...'if it can't walk it's lame', non? YOur also not that bright the increased functionality is what is commonly described as low level control which would get you directly involved in one shape form or another in the coding process, you're thinking hey i go to a separate interface i type in numbrs into a a series of fields select an objkect i created and then give it specific instrutions and it appears on the fly i tell a character A to switch layers and bam he does, you are to blind to realize that you can simply fake this process, just like your epic battle which only requires the reconfiguring of a 'dumb' animation with multiple call events that loops with a frame delay of 0 (''i'll throw you that bone but it's unlikely you'll figure out the rest without help''). Nope, you won't go through the trouble you want people who are non responsive to make the engine as rudimentary and complicated as possible without ruining the current specs that are designed primarily as safeguards do that you don't preform an illegal action and crash the game as you would if you were as low-level as direct input.

You as i've asid before cannot see the forest for the trees, you don't understand why it is what it is so you curse it or want it to be 'fixed', laughable the peoplle at Beenox had a design...a vision the engine is built to that it works, you don't liikke it you want to play around in the mud, that's fine but while your daydreaming you could be out building your versatile solution to coldstone's illness, but frankly your actions would probably result in folly and you'd end up pestering nother development house to change their dream to suit yours.

...your not to bright are you chill_rx ellrx, same attitude similar writing style, "::" "...", he is revealed , your like the Lois Lane of the boards, how many more clues did you need "DubbYa"...

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