This is something I've been doing a lot of thinking about recently.

I'm assuming that many people here (ASW and Beenox people excluded, of course) don't have a lot of experience (or any, for that matter) designing games. I myself am included in this. In my own quest to make an RPG/Adventure game, I've actually done quite a bit of reading of game-writing books, magazines, etc and so forth. Unfortunately, they mostly address technical issues and such, so I have found very little on what makes a good game, especially as might be adapted towards the kind of games we'll be making with Coldstone.

So I'm just going to ask outright, what does everybody think makes a Role-Playing or Adventure Game (since it seems CGE may be geared more towards the latter) good?

I personally enjoy a well-written story, puzzles that actually require me to think, the occasional difficult (but not impossibly hard) battle.

Things that make a game less fun for me include excessive repetition, excessively long (over 3 minutes) cut-scenes, a saccarin-sweetened story, and over-technical systems for customizing characters (as in most of the FF games).

How about everyone else? It helps to know your audience.

------------------
People who claim the sky is falling obviously aren't aware the earth is falling, too.

The factors I enjoy in a good RPG are: Vivid background and history, a well written dialogue ( not like: "We must save Princess Beutygown from evil Lord Darksmear and his tower of darkness!" :)), good graphics (someone had to mention it, better now rather than later), atmospheric music/sounds and a good battle system. Oh, and lots and lots of secrets.

I dislike random battles that occur every five seconds, repitition, and unproffesionalism.

------------------
Friction leads to fire, you could get burned,
How much ink I just injected is none of your concern,
Unless your on terms of understanding the omega,
He controlls the mix so you can inherit the heater.

I like epic battles. I like nations on the verge of collapse. I dislike turn-based battles. I dislike final fantasy VII-IX. I dislike humerous RPGs, with the exception of Earthbound, they pulled that game off just right. I like parties, I dislike materia. I like cool cutscenes and music. I dislike music ripped from another source.

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Apple Computer - The name of microsoft's research and development division
--------------------------------
Make sure you visit the Coldstone Hotline Server run by GlueBubble. The IP is:
65.4.86.190

Immersion is the key to role-playing games. Be that person, in that world. Mood and tone set the effect, and emotion sets in to add to the drama. A well-developed storyline and depth of play are essential. I personally prefer turn-based games in most case, because it works better with parties and requires much strategy. If real-time is pulled off correctly, it could prove successful. Classic games (like Zelda and Secret of Mana, which are really adventures anyway) have the system down pat, while, in my opinion, modern attempts such as Diablo and Baldur's Gate are seriously lacking for their hack-and-slash gameplay. All this should be mixed with a stellar soundtrack, killer graphics, and most importantly, an unforgettable cast of characters. The closer the player feels to your world and its inhabitants, the more they want to be in it.

~Saphfire

------------------

Hmm... good question, sanehatter!

In addition to (IMHO) clear-cut "goods" and "bads", let me try and point out some more ambiguous matters - issues of balance in the gameplay, which should be thoughtfully considered...

Puzzles
-Personally, I prefer puzzles which challenge the mind rather than the reflexes, although there is room for the latter in moderation. That's why I play RPGs; if I wanted a "push the buttons quickly in the following pattern" puzzle, I'd play Soul Calibur or Killer Instinct. Allow me to reiterate: action puzzles can still provide a good change of pace, if used in moderation.

-Replay value is also a concern: will someone playing a second time be able to just breeze right through? One way to avoid this would be the use of a random element of some sort. But will all of the random variations of the puzzle be of similar difficulty? Perhaps just randomly choosing between, say, four predefined, similar, but slightly different setups might be best.

-Such puzzles as are included need to blend with the game - don't just throw it in as "I want to include this puzzle, cause it's nifty"! Ask yourself, "Why would there be a puzzle of this sort in this location?" If you don't have a good answer, drop it or come up with a new setup.

Storyline
-Don't throw anything in just cause "all the other plots have it". If your character doesn't need a love interest, don't add one! Not all plots need a megalomaniac villain, or a dragon named Bahamut, or characters with tragic pasts, or... (see (url="http://"http://www.thegia.com/features/f990118.html")http://www.thegia.co...es/f990118.html(/url) for an extended list) Not that all clichés are necessarily bad, mind you... a certain amount can help the player to feel "at home" with the world as he/she begins to play. Just be careful with them.

-Believable characters. This isn't a novel, so you can't explain motivations as deeply as you might in a more literary form. Still, if you characterize your people quickly and effectively, you (and your players) will easily develop a "feel" for the characters. Once this "feel" is well locked-in, you can use uncharacteristic behaviour to indicate that things may not be as they seem... A character replaced by a double, someone going through a period of great stress (which you just might be able to help relieve), etc., etc. If your characters are 2-dimensional and inconsistent, you're deprived of this wonderful storytelling tool.

-Interactivity in the storyline. Do you want an FF7 game, where all of the characters' personalities and actions are pretty well laid out, and your sole responsibility is to get them from plot point to plot point? Or do you want something more like Deus Ex or one of the old Ultima games, where the goal and plot are much more nebulous and free-form, subject to the decisions of the user? The former permits a much more complex, dramatic plot; the latter allows more freedome of choice, and possibly more replay value. The choice is yours.

General quality of gaming
-PROOFREADING. Just as with an EV or EVO plug-in, this can make a tremendous difference. People will be happier with a small, typo-free game than with a huge one which reads like it was written by Babelfish and run through a paper shredder. If you aren't a good proofreader, find someone who is. It will be well worth your time, trust me.

-Originality. Using the graphics in the Coldstone library is OK... if you don't have the time/inclination to make new graphics, that's fine. Focus instead on gameplay and storyline, and blow us away. However, I for one will never play a game that uses ripped Final Fantasy graphics or MIDI files, or blatantly borrows major plot points from a well-known game. Use only others' stuff that you have permission to use, and whenever possible, create your own content instead.

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“If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger?” - T.H. Huxley

Choices should have consequences.

In the game I'm designing, decisions are divided into 3 categories: major, important, and minor. Minor decisions make little or no difference. Important decisions affect the course and outcome of a thread. Major decisions can affect the course and outcome of the game. Unlike EV/O, Ares, and 99% of all games out there where the story leads the player by the nose, I want decisions to have effects, sometimes long-term effects. I want to see situations where if the player makes an important decision wrong, he/she closes an entire thread and misses out on a whole lot. I want players who selected the wrong line to say get penalized. In doing so, the designer will succeed in creating a rich and immersive game where a few different decisions can result in a dramtically new course and outcome for the game. It is the best way to entice people to go back again and again, in their search for more hidden threads. I want to see a massive proliferation of mysteries, puzzles, secrets,...etc.

Bad decisions shouldn't be a choice between killing the player or terminating the thread. Add more variety. Perhaps bad decisions lead to new threads that are much harder than the previous one?

Important and major decisions should be difficult to make, its false choices highly enticing and misleading.

Success should be rated.

A thread shouldn't have only two outcomes: success or failure. Preferably, it should be a situation where the chances of the player achieving total success in a thread is incredibly difficult and that most of the times, the player can only hope to get out alive and achieve limited or moderate levels of success. I want victories to be bittersweet.

Just to capitalize on what others have said: I want to see innovation.

I can guarantee everyone here that one possible outcome from my story is completely surprising (and sets up for the sequel). So surprising in fact, that you won't see an outcome like the one I have in mind in 99% of the games out there, regardless of genre. I want people to be creative, to imagine scenarios and situations where few have thought of before. Remember: it's fantasy. It leaves you with a lot more freedom. Unless you want to stick with history or reality, otherwise, don't hesitate to bend the parameters of reality a bit as long as it is consistent with the game and offers possibilities that few have thought of before.

Storyline: It's been said that all possible story structures have already been written. Maybe that's true. Then again, there are so many story structures out there that by combining some of them, you might get something that seems new. Blatantly copying other ideas (and simply changing the names) gets old fast. Try to attach one storyline with another.

------------------
Cotton Mouse to htjyang: "If you try and steal my thoughts again, I'll have you taken away in the middle of the night!!!"
Cotton Mouse: "I'm not surprised at Htyang or whatever, he strikes me as an ultra-conservative pro-life tree burner."
JohnShackles to htjyang: "Wow, you're just one bundle of conflict that got unravelled to reveal its empty, heartless core."
Dr. Tall to htjyang: "your a communist dictator beholding only to your own prejudicies"

Quote

Originally posted by sanehatter:
**what does everybody think makes a Role-Playing or Adventure Game good?
**

Interesting topic indeed. Here's something that you might want to check:
(url="http://"http://www.gamasutra.com/features/game_design/19990115/remodeling_11.htm")http://www.gamasutra...modeling_11.htm(/url)

(the rest of the article is quite good too)

------------------
Dee Brown
Coldstone Game Engine developer
Beenox inc. - (url="http://"http://www.beenox.com")www.beenox.com(/url)

I have to disagree with Htjyang. I think succsess should not be rated. The kind of game i'd liek to try to create is one which is morally ambigous. Saving the fare maiden, something that is the 'obvious' choice, might turn out to be a hassle, and she might turn out to be just a mean person, who offers no thanks at all. I'd like to make a game in which the actions the player chooses are not due to 'Oh well, I'd like to see what happens if I let the helpless virgin be devoured by the mad wizard, but I know video games, in order to win, I have to save her.' I guess it's an attempt to convince people that life is not about winning, but I won't get side tracked on that.

What I want to see is a game that is played, not won. Like EV, or a better example EVO. Most games to have that 'right decision' to be made, but the game I want is one with a deeply thrilling, enthralling story, which can be changed at any istant. One where you can betray your government, and not merely spend the rest of the game roaming the outskirts. Where you can then go to another goverment, and work for them, or where you can start a militia band to continue to attack them. A game where everythign and anything is possible. Of course, this would take ages to make, I know.

After this though, I do also like a game with little story choice, ala Vampire: Redemption, as long as the story is damn good, and isn't compeltely linear. Like Baldurs gate. This I like because you can make a damn good story.

So, Basically, what I think makes for good gamplay is either very very high controllablity, or a very very indepth story.

Characters as well. How many people loved Minsc? Character (if you ask me) are and should be part of the story. If a game makes you think of characters in your party as a collection of stats, and chosing your party as an excersise (solely, I understand and like that this happens a little) in finding the best strength/weaknesses trade off, then you don't get sucked in, hence bad gameplay. You should want to keep characters. I never thought once about ditching Imoen, regardless of her strengths or lack there of, cause she was such a fun character, ditto for Minsc. Characters should have plots and subplots of their own. In my game I want to make it that a character whos tays in your party forever is a rare and glorious thing. It means a friend. Their will be plenty who saty for a while, till something is accomplished, or whatever, and will then go back to being a normal NPC, rather than a part member NPC (like the way in Cythera, you had the Princess in your party for a short time).

The player should also be challenged with difficult fights every now and again, the kind that take a couple of attempts. That way, the stragey of the battle is developed, and its, IMHO, more fun. I also liek random monster encounters, just to spice things up and give it an edgy feel.

I also think that little puzzles should be encorprated more often. Most times when puzzle like things are used in an RPG it is only at a major point in the story. For my RPG, i'm going to have the game puncuated by minor puzzles, in the way most RPG's are with minor encounters. But don't think i'm going to skint on the random violence, oh no.

Well, that is about all I can write tonight, I'd love to know what people think of all this.

P.S. I like a bit of humour, life is funny and serious, sometimes at the same moment. I like to put a little comedy, and a little seriousness into everything.

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"For Example: Sunny days make me happy, rainy days make me sad." "But you can have fun on a rainy day too." "Your truth can be changed simply by how you accept it." "That is how fragile truth is for a human being."

Thanks for the article link, Dee. That's the sort of stuff I've been looking for but haven't found yet (if you have as many focii as I do you know how hard it can be to find in-depth writings on the particular aspects of topics that interest you).

As a matter of fact, I found Gamasutra's "Dogma 2001" manifesto ( (url="http://"http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010129/adams_01.htm")http://www.gamasutra...29/adams_01.htm(/url) ) also rather interesting, especially since I helped work on a Dogme '95 inspired film a few years ago. Considering that most Coldstone Game Authors will be limited to whatever technologies Coldstone allows, I think this might be of interest to others here as well. I realized that with a few minor modifications, I could fit the scope of my game into Dogma 2001's limitations, as well. Heh.

My favorite part of the article Dee referenced: (Diablo)'s an action game dressed up in RPG drag and a near perfect recreation of nearly every 1980's-vintage D&D; "monty hall" module.

Yep, I remember those modules, and I think that's WHY I didn't like Diablo.

Keep the replies coming everybody, and maybe we can start talking about ideas on how to implement things, too. Of course, there is the fear of giving away our ideas, but the whole community could benefit from a little sharing.

I'm using a branching-path structure, but the path the player takes is a result of the consequences of their actions. Like what htjyang is planning, choices influence how the game will progress. However, there won't be any clear-cut "this is the right thing and that is the wrong thing to do," solutions.

I, too, have succumbed to the desire to keep secrets, therefore:

( spoiler edited out )

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People who claim the sky is falling obviously aren't aware the earth is falling, too.

(This message has been edited by sanehatter (edited 02-28-2001).)

I agree. I suppose Mashish and I just have different views on what kind of games people enjoy. I'm sure there is a niche for each of our ideas.

As for the danger of "leaking secrets," it is a concern to me as well. However, as long as we talk only about general principles and guidelines, there should be no danger.

------------------
Cotton Mouse to htjyang: "If you try and steal my thoughts again, I'll have you taken away in the middle of the night!!!"
Cotton Mouse: "I'm not surprised at Htyang or whatever, he strikes me as an ultra-conservative pro-life tree burner."
JohnShackles to htjyang: "Wow, you're just one bundle of conflict that got unravelled to reveal its empty, heartless core."
Dr. Tall to htjyang: "your a communist dictator beholding only to your own prejudicies"

I love a good storyline and enveloping characters, that make me want to play on and on...

However, in the end I stalk the RPG world with an unquenchable blood lust, in search
of a boss that's a serious pain in the ass, a worthy foe is my main desire.

Usually you can't find a good fight once you reach a high level,
that disturbs me.

Does anyone know of any RPG's with any awe-inspiring bosses?(note I killed RUBY and Emerald Weapon on my first try)???

------------------
unseen...
unwanted...
unlawful...
undead...

It seems to me that of all the gaming genres RPGs have the strongest link to traditional storytelling. While you may explore various paths, they all sort of head in the same direction. On top of the storytelling aspect, there is the incorporation of puzzle solving in the story itself. I think the quality of an RPG is usually directly related to the strength of the story, the nature of the puzzles, and how well they are connected.

On story. RPGs tend to be mythical. I don't mean they're all sword and sworcery, I mean they follow mythical archetypes. My strongest recommendation would be read the theories of Joseph Campbell on myth. Or you may want to just get to the meat of the issue in Chirstopher Voglers, "The Writer's Journey". The book is directed towards screenwriters, but the analysis of story could easily applly to RPGs.

On puzzles. Understand what the plot points in your story are. The goals. The hero at some point needs to encounter a mentor on an island. The hero currently isn't on the island. From this situation that naturally occurs in the story there are a myriad of possible puzzles. There could be a maze of underwater rocks that the hero needs to navigate. Perhaps he needs to build a bridge. Maybe he needs to find someone that has a boat. Or what if he has to get to the island on a boat with a chicken, a fox, and a sack of grain. Whatever, my point is that the puzzle aspect has to align with the story, or the user is drawn out of the game. They don't want to solve math problems in order to save the damsel in distress.

Story and puzzles. To me, that's the meat of a succesful RPG. Everything else is just gravy. The story is what draws you in and keeps you invested in the characters. The puzzles are what gets you by from moment to moment, and how you advance the story. In a movie or book a story is told, but in an RPG the player needs to discover the story.

------------------

Quote

Originally posted by htjyang:
**Choices should have consequences.

In the game I'm designing, decisions are divided into 3 categories: major, important, and minor. Minor decisions make little or no difference. Important decisions affect the course and outcome of a thread. Major decisions can affect the course and outcome of the game. Unlike EV/O, Ares, and 99% of all games out there where the story leads the player by the nose, I want decisions to have effects, sometimes long-term effects.
**

I'm with you so far... sounds great.

Quote

**I want to see situations where if the player makes an important decision wrong, he/she closes an entire thread and misses out on a whole lot. I want players who selected the wrong line to say get penalized.
**

Perhaps it's just your choice of phrasing, but I have to disagree with you here. Decisions in your game will have a "right" and "wrong" answer? That seems rather restrictive to me. Penalizing players for making the "wrong" choice sort of reduces the replay value, I would think. What's to stop every player from simply making all the "right" choices, knowing that this will get the most interesting plot, the niftiest equipment, the best ending, etc.?

Besides, there are so many different kinds of right and wrong. Morally, legally, socially, familially (is that an actual word? :redface:), and so forth. Personally, I think replay value would be much higher if at least some of your choices were not clear black and white. E.g.: Do you do the morally right thing and break the law of the land, or do you follow the law and betray your personal beliefs? Neither is clearly right or wrong, and presumably both choices would lead the plot in a different direction. I don't think either should "penalize" the player - they should just develop differently. Likewise for success, partial success, and failure (except in certain critical cases, where "failure is not an option"). That, IMO, is what will give the most replay value.

<remainder of your post not quoted; a lot of it relates right back to what I just wrote, and I agree with the rest of it. >

------------------
“If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger?” - T.H. Huxley

Quote

Originally posted by chill_rx:
**However, in the end I stalk the RPG world with an unquenchable blood lust, in search
of a boss that's a serious pain in the ass, a worthy foe is my main desire.

Usually you can't find a good fight once you reach a high level,
that disturbs me.
**

Very good point. I don't know that I have quite the same "unquenchable blood lust" as you claim to have :), but I've noticed this as well. In so many RPGs, boss battles (especially towards endgame, as you noted) tend to devolve into the following loop:

Warriors attack BigBadBoss (hereafter BBB) with the biggest swords and guns they have
Wizards cast UltimateAttackSpell on BBB
BBB smacks one party member nearly dead or badly wounds the whole party
Priests heal the party member(s) needing aid.
Repeat.

There's no real challenge - it basically comes down to luck: will my attacks kill him before he gets a lucky hit and wipes us out before we can heal back up? If the party is strong enough (which it usually is by this point), there's barely even that much challenge; it's just a matter of "repeat until BBB dies". Anyone have any thoughts on what can be done to give more variety, increase the challenge, and/or insert an element of skill into such combats?

------------------
“If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger?” - T.H. Huxley

Quote

Originally posted by Glenn:
**Perhaps it's just your choice of phrasing, but I have to disagree with you here. Decisions in your game will have a "right" and "wrong" answer? That seems rather restrictive to me. Penalizing players for making the "wrong" choice sort of reduces the replay value, I would think. What's to stop every player from simply making all the "right" choices, knowing that this will get the most interesting plot, the niftiest equipment, the best ending, etc.?

Besides, there are so many different kinds of right and wrong. Morally, legally, socially, familially (is that an actual word? :redface:), and so forth. Personally, I think replay value would be much higher if at least some of your choices were not clear black and white. E.g.: Do you do the morally right thing and break the law of the land, or do you follow the law and betray your personal beliefs? Neither is clearly right or wrong, and presumably both choices would lead the plot in a different direction. I don't think either should "penalize" the player - they should just develop differently. Likewise for success, partial success, and failure (except in certain critical cases, where "failure is not an option"). That, IMO, is what will give the most replay value.

<remainder of your post not quoted; a lot of it relates right back to what I just wrote, and I agree with the rest of it. >

**

A) Picking all the right choices will mean missing out a lot of the other threads. The "right" choices don't necessarily lead to the most interesting threads, especially if we take into account that different people like different kinds of stories. The path that allows you to end the earliest may not necessarily be the most interesting threads.
What I meant by "right" choices are choices that give you the easier path. The choices that will lead to the best ending.
C) I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the different kinds of "rights" and indeed, it will be something I will use to great effect. Many of the major choices in my game are very well disguised, practically counter-intuitive.

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Obormot: "But tell me, htjyang, does a death from natural causes not satisfy you? Do you insist on going down in a blaze of glory, killed by militant liberals?"
Cotton Mouse to htjyang: "If you try and steal my thoughts again, I'll have you taken away in the middle of the night!!!"
Cotton Mouse: "I'm not surprised at Htyang or whatever, he strikes me as an ultra-conservative pro-life tree burner."
JohnShackles to htjyang: "Wow, you're just one bundle of conflict that got unravelled to reveal its empty, heartless core."

I've often wondered this myself, as well. How can i make a combat that is interesting and exciting. Normal random encounters don't really need to be exciting, but bosses definately do. The answer I have come up with is customization. Make bosses unique characters, characters in and of themselves. Perhaps one boss is particularly appauled witht eh thought of dieing, and is consantly fleeing, or bargaining for his life. this also gets the player to think about some neat things like; Is it right to kill a man begging for his life? and other such things. But again, I'm getting sidetracked by morals

What I also meant, besides just giving each boss a definate personailty, and not just an increase of stats, is giving them strengths and weaknesses. A mage boss might have large magic resistance, so the parties resources must be directed to the fighters. A king fire giant would be weak against ice, which would mean that the player must find some item to help defeat him. All this stuff i've gathered from my days as a table top role-player, by the way. Let players be warned of a boss, say by finding a note on the body of a hired assasin, from some big boss who wants the player dead, and the note can hint at the bosses personality. let the player learn by rumours some of the deeds which made this boss so powerful, have them encounter previous lackeys, or escaped victims, or victims families, or wanted posters. Build it up, let the player have a sense of anticpation, that each boss is something they have been working towards, not just a minion with a 50% boost to all his stats that they happen to have run across.

I believe that there are three classes of villians. First, you have your fodder. Nameless non unique hordes of weaklings, or single more powerful creatures. They have little intelligence, and exist pretty much to harrass the player, and keep him (or her) on his (or her) toes.
Next is the minion. These guys get a name, or atleast some rank aboce the fodder. They are more difficult to kill than fodder, and have some elements of a personality, perhaps even a little bit of a build up. Powerful assassins which jump the party, bandits who get a small amount of talking before attacking are the sort that fit into this catagory. They are the minions of the highest class of badies, and while they do have personality, and possibly some build up to them, they don't really control the plot.
Next, are the bosses. They are the ones who have been dogging the player with fodder and minions, the ones who control behind the scenes, the really powerful ones. Killing a boss is a major plot element, and should be treated like one, it should have build up, and the player should know that this is one of the points of the game, not just a fun detour.

I know that is a bit of a detour, but oh well, I think those ideas should help with increase game play. They are, of course just my ideas, regardless of being written liek truth :).

Also, I think that bosses should always be more powerful then the player/party so that a strategy must be employed to defeat them. "Well, I know I need to destroy the spell caster first, so I'll concentrate on him, but I can't let those two enemy fighters get to my spell casters as i'm doing this, so i'll..." Are the kind of battles I think fights with a boss/bosses should be like. Bosses should always have a minion or two, and plenty of fodder with them (IMHO).

Sorry about the length of this, just felt inspired

------------------
"For Example: Sunny days make me happy, rainy days make me sad." "But you can have fun on a rainy day too." "Your truth can be changed simply by how you accept it." "That is how fragile truth is for a human being."

I was rereading alot of the old posts and this has to be one of the best.

I thought it would be nice to revisit in a post CGE release world.

(what happened to these folks? are they still around? useing CGE?)

------------------
'mentally I'm compatible with Macintosh and I can get a girl in the sack with floss, Hop on the microphone actin lost' --- Casual

Quote

Originally posted by straytoaster:
**I was rereading alot of the old posts and this has to be one of the best.

I thought it would be nice to revisit in a post CGE release world.

(what happened to these folks? are they still around? useing CGE?)

**

Now stray, you know the rules about ressurecting old posts......especially ones over a year old! Mind you though, it's sort of nice to take a trip down memory lane like that......that was about the time I decided to join the CS community....

Anyway, no penalties, just try not to do it again, ok? However, this sort of is a topic that could be restarted.......and maybe a candidate for the archives later.

-Andiyar

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"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"

Quote

Originally posted by Tarnćlion Andiyarus:
**Now stray, you know the rules about ressurecting old posts......especially ones over a year old! Mind you though, it's sort of nice to take a trip down memory lane like that......that was about the time I decided to join the CS community....

Anyway, no penalties, just try not to do it again, ok? However, this sort of is a topic that could be restarted.......and maybe a candidate for the archives later.

-Andiyar

**

actually i guess idont know the rules sorry. Thanks for withholdin the Karma beatdown I'll be good I promise

although now the board wont let me use my name. so maybe you banned me seesh some people you make them mod for a few day and they throw their weight around

Actually, this might be the kind of thread where you compile all the thoughts and put it in a game FAQ. Remember, not all old threads that are brought to the top are bad.

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quitcherbellyachin.
---
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