I just spent a whole lot of time typing this whne I was told that my thread was closed. I can't just give up, this community is getting picky and bickery for no reason. I just have a point that I wanted to make and it was already too late. So I'm saying it here before people lose their open mindedness and give up on a little change.

I just posted this to try to inspire people to change things up a bit. I heard complaints about the battle system so I wanted to show that it is not that difficult to change it theoretically. Since a lot of people will surely get tired of whacking and whacking and whacking, we could find our own way around it. I think that it'd be fun to have some turned based games, it'd add more diversity to the coldstone game engine. Where there are 2D graphics, there are 3D graphics. Where there are medeival games, there are modern day and futuristic games. Where there are real time games, there are turned based games. Just think how many different style we could spit out of this engine with an extra way of playing. It'd be even better if everyone made their OWN way of doing a turn based battle system. This would make for even more endless possibilities.
One game that I thought had an extremely fun turn based battle system was Mario RPG. You didn't just choose an attack and it'd succeed or fail. You had to be on alert and interact and press the right buttons for blocking or for more dammage. With certain attacks, you would have to press a certain button repeatedly for the best effect or time it perfectly for the most attacks or press the correct combination of buttons for a wider range of effect.
Turn based battle systems don't even have to be limited to one style, and one way. Even real-time battles could be altered a bit for the best feel according to your game. I hope that everyone will be creative when it comes down to the actual gameplay so that we can get a completely new feel from the same engine. It'll keep Coldstone alive for a while.

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I agree. There is no way to define an RPG or for that matter classify RPGs into different catagories. Reminds me of my boy scout troop trying to group pumpkins last month:
"Alright, big ones go over here and small ones go over there. What are you doing? That one's a big one!"
"Is not! It's a middle sized one!"
"There is no middle sized ones you moron!"
And so on and so on.

But if somebody locked your last topic I would highly advise that you not start another topic about it. That's how lots of karma goes down the drain.

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-TheDarkDragon
Visit #cythera on IRC for all you Cythera/IRC fans. (You probably should be able to figure that out.)

Oops. Well, actually, it was locked because people started arguing about which one was better. That was truly sad. This was what I wanted to say to end the argument before my precious thread was destroyed, but they just bickered it off topic. I hope this one will stay longer so people might discuss what kind of battle engine they'd like to use. Hopefully no more mindless bickering.

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Quote

Originally posted by Kireck L:
**Oops. Well, actually, it was locked because people started arguing about which one was better. That was truly sad. This was what I wanted to say to end the argument before my precious thread was destroyed, but they just bickered it off topic. I hope this one will stay longer so people might discuss what kind of battle engine they'd like to use. Hopefully no more mindless bickering.

**

I'm sorry that your topic was locked, but it was degrading into what everyone here has seen before.

X: "No turn based is better!"
Y: "No, turn based sux, it's boring"
X: "you sux"
etc...etc..

Coldstone will generate real time battles, it has been programmed this way, and it will not be changed. However, using the method Kirek described (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum48 &topic;=000687")here(/url), it may be possible to emulate a Turn Based combat system. However, the testers are unable to try out this technique, so we'll just have to wait.

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Ladies and Gentlemen, as you know we have something special for you at
Birdland this evening. A recording for Blue Note Records...
Let's take it back to the concrete streets, original beats and real live MC's...
"I don't know how radical you are or how radical I am. I am certainly not radical enough; that is, one must always try to be as radical as reality itself" - Lenin

Quote

Originally posted by Kireck L:
**I just spent a whole lot of time typing this whne I was told that my thread was closed. I can't just give up, this community is getting picky and bickery for no reason. I just have a point that I wanted to make and it was already too late. So I'm saying it here before people lose their open mindedness and give up on a little change.

I just posted this to try to inspire people to change things up a bit. I heard complaints about the battle system so I wanted to show that it is not that difficult to change it theoretically. Since a lot of people will surely get tired of whacking and whacking and whacking, we could find our own way around it. I think that it'd be fun to have some turned based games, it'd add more diversity to the coldstone game engine. Where there are 2D graphics, there are 3D graphics. Where there are medeival games, there are modern day and futuristic games. Where there are real time games, there are turned based games. Just think how many different style we could spit out of this engine with an extra way of playing. It'd be even better if everyone made their OWN way of doing a turn based battle system. This would make for even more endless possibilities.
One game that I thought had an extremely fun turn based battle system was Mario RPG. You didn't just choose an attack and it'd succeed or fail. You had to be on alert and interact and press the right buttons for blocking or for more dammage. With certain attacks, you would have to press a certain button repeatedly for the best effect or time it perfectly for the most attacks or press the correct combination of buttons for a wider range of effect.
Turn based battle systems don't even have to be limited to one style, and one way. Even real-time battles could be altered a bit for the best feel according to your game. I hope that everyone will be creative when it comes down to the actual gameplay so that we can get a completely new feel from the same engine. It'll keep Coldstone alive for a while.

**

I agree with everything that you've said above and I'm sorry that I added to the closure of your previous thread. Please read what I have to say below, not as a defense of any particular battle type but as an observation on what you propose.

Coldstone, at this time, has a real-time battle engine and is limited to one PC. In addition, the NPC's have certain pre-defined AI actions that can be used.

Because it is RT, and the various AI's are running in real time, certain restrictions are therefore in place and will be very difficult to overcome. Yes, they can be overcome by clever programming with the built-in scripting, drag-and-drop interface provided. Yes, a rudimentary turn-based system can be created. Almost any program can be emulated with almost any programming tool. However...

...Can it be optimized within the given coding technique to provide a 'reasonable' speed of execution and player satisfaction? Does the emulation produce bloated code? This is the bugbear. As we have experienced with many programs, quite often the emulation is just too slow (or buggy) to be useful.

I agree with Necromicon that we cannot say for certain if it can be done but it is worth a try.

However, it is my firm belief (and only a belief) that the lack of multiple PC's and the limited choice of NPC AI will not create a reasonable alternative for built-in turn based battles.

I will personally use Coldstone to create the type of game for which it is best intended (within the limits of my moronic graphics abilities) and will experiment with pushing the engine beyond its' design limitations.

My games with large battles (30 or more participants) and multiple PC's will be created with different tools.

It is not that there is a better system, RT or TB, but each lends itself to a very different type of storyline and game play. And that leads to endless discussion to no avail. It is simply a matter of preference.

I hope that this new thread is fruitful for you.

Peace,

Skip

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...it wasn't me...

I appreciate your insightfulness and creativity, Kireck. It adds a lot to the board.
You have inspired me to go beyond the rules.

As to whether this can be done, who knows. I'm sure chill has probably tried this, and you might be right, it could be too big and slow to be practical.

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I'm just your average run-of-the-mill demon possessed, bloodsucking, headhunting, cold-blooded, hot-headed, pyromaniac.
My name is Legion, for we are many.

Kireck: Don't worry about your karma, you brought up an excellent idea, and hopefully we'll see lots of excellent tricks to use with CGE on this board.

Anyway, my thoughts on the matter are this: I enjoy just about any game, if it's neat. If someone can make a turn-based game that is cool, awesome for them! ...and me!

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Fortress of Die Nacht: An upcoming game from Aviary Productions.
(url="http://"http://www.aviaryproductions.f2s.com/downloads.html")Go take a look!(/url)

Maybe it could be possible to build a combat system as in Baldur's Gate: you give all the carachters their tasks while under pause, then you unpause, and (hopefully) your carachters smash the opponent(s) into pieces.
Does anyone have an idea if this could be possible?
Ras

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Quote

Originally posted by rasputiza:
**Maybe it could be possible to build a combat system as in Baldur's Gate: you give all the carachters their tasks while under pause, then you unpause, and (hopefully) your carachters smash the opponent(s) into pieces.
Does anyone have an idea if this could be possible?
Ras

**

It's an excellent idea, but I don't believe it would be possible to build in an event structure that froze your surroundings (ie, made the NPC's stop and deactivate the movement buttons, while freezing the ambient sound). It might be possible to deactive the movement of the NPC's by setting a global event linked to a key down event so that when you pressed a button it set all the monsters speed variables to zero (if they're slow as hell they can't move ;)) and then reassigning them once you press the button again (maybe caps-lock?). Freezing the controlls of the player wouldn't be too hard, you just have to have an event that changed the keydown events. The sound would be trickier though...

Anyway, enough of my ramblings, I'll look into this as well as Kirek's idea and get back to everyone in a nice meaty topic with screenshots and purrdy writing.

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Ladies and Gentlemen, as you know we have something special for you at
Birdland this evening. A recording for Blue Note Records...
Let's take it back to the concrete streets, original beats and real live MC's...
"I don't know how radical you are or how radical I am. I am certainly not radical enough; that is, one must always try to be as radical as reality itself" - Lenin

I had the idea that if a dialog box came up with the choices of your action, then no one would be able to move anyway. Then when the action was chosen, an event would be carried out that would control everyone in the battle so you still wouldn't be able to move anyway. But whatever, if it works it works. I'm more worried about the plots of everyones games than the battles. I certainly don't expect everyone to make their own battle system for every game. My first game probably won't even be changing the system as a matter of fact. In the mean time, I'll just keep shoving out graphics onto my computer until the engine comes out.

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Quote

Originally posted by Kireck L:
**I had the idea that if a dialog box came up with the choices of your action, then no one would be able to move anyway. Then when the action was chosen, an event would be carried out that would control everyone in the battle so you still wouldn't be able to move anyway. But whatever, if it works it works. I'm more worried about the plots of everyones games than the battles. I certainly don't expect everyone to make their own battle system for every game. My first game probably won't even be changing the system as a matter of fact. In the mean time, I'll just keep shoving out graphics onto my computer until the engine comes out.

**

Hmm, it seems ingegnous, but still i think it would involve much scripting...
Ras

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If you wrote so, why is the pause option not so easy to script?
I'm no polemicizing, just asking for some illumination
Ras

Quote

Originally posted by the Necromicon:
**yup, you can programme any key on the keyboard to execute an event (ie, bring up dialogue, execute animation - usefull for assigning combat moves to keys).

Just peachy aint it.

**

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(quote)Originally posted by rasputiza:
**If you wrote so, why is the pause option not so easy to script?
I'm no polemicizing, just asking for some illumination

------------------
Ladies and Gentlemen, as you know we have something special for you at
Birdland this evening. A recording for Blue Note Records...**
Let's take it back to the concrete streets, original beats and real live MC's...
"I don't know how radical you are or how radical I am. I am certainly not radical enough; that is, one must always try to be as radical as reality itself" - Lenin

(This message has been edited by the Necromicon (edited 10-16-2001).)

Still no response from Dee...
...Dee, yuhu! We are here waiting for light!
Ras

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X: "No turn based is better!"
Y: "No, turn based sux, it's boring"
Pad: "Give in Kireck! ...Anyway realtime battle is better... ...And you'll probably have to bear it!

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Quote

Originally posted by the Necromicon:
**Because they're is no event that simply freezes the game (apart from the normal pause button, but with that you can't use the UI, so it would be pointless), it would involve changing all the moving componants on the screen, freezing all the landscape animation, freeze all the NPC's on the exact frame they're on. Tricky...but perhaps not impossible.

Let's say you want to freeze an animation of a tree blowing in the breeze, say there's six frames in the animation. When the player hits the button, a keydown event would have to be activated, which triggered a global event (global events are different from other events, they effect the whole game, instead of the single places you've programmed the normal events). To freeze the tree in the frame would mean somehow surveying the frames, so that when the key was pressed an event went to the tree object to tell it to change from an animation to a single cell -- the last frame from the animation that was drawn to the screen before the event kicked in. It's quite a long string of events, and to programme it for every animated object would be quite tricky, and would add to the file sizes too. I'm not saying that it's impossible, this psuedo-string is only one way of doing it off the top of my head, and they're might be different ways of doing it.

Maybe Dee could shed some light on the subject, after all, who better to ask then the creator of the engine. Dee, whadd-ya-say?

**

Why would you have to freeze the sound and/or environment? If you're just choosing actions, and those variables don't affect the player in any way other than aesthetic, couldn't you just freeze the enemies? (Not saying it's possible, just arguing that sound and environment aren't big issues with the pause feature.)

Saphfire

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Quote

Originally posted by saphfire:
**Why would you have to freeze the sound and/or environment? If you're just choosing actions, and those variables don't affect the player in any way other than aesthetic, couldn't you just freeze the enemies? (Not saying it's possible, just arguing that sound and environment aren't big issues with the pause feature.)

Saphfire

**

You slightly missed the point: the discussion here took two branches:
The Kirek's one: suggesting an event that stops the action
Mine (probably less implementable): that suggests a solution a la Baldur's Gate, voila'
Nec was referring to mine, i think
Ras

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Quote

Originally posted by saphfire:
**Why would you have to freeze the sound and/or environment? If you're just choosing actions, and those variables don't affect the player in any way other than aesthetic, couldn't you just freeze the enemies? (Not saying it's possible, just arguing that sound and environment aren't big issues with the pause feature.)

Saphfire

**

yeah, I was talking about rasputiza's method. I would want to freeze sound and the enviroment so it looked more realistic, if the enviroment was still active around the monsters, why the hell aren't the monsters ripping the stuffing out of you?

------------------
Ladies and Gentlemen, as you know we have something special for you at
Birdland this evening. A recording for Blue Note Records...
Let's take it back to the concrete streets, original beats and real live MC's...
"I don't know how radical you are or how radical I am. I am certainly not radical enough; that is, one must always try to be as radical as reality itself" - Lenin

Quote

Originally posted by the Necromicon:
**yeah, I was talking about rasputiza's method. I would want to freeze sound and the enviroment so it looked more realistic, if the enviroment was still active around the monsters, why the hell aren't the monsters ripping the stuffing out of you?:p

**

You know the funny thing is ...i've been asking for a pause / pause screen/ "stop all action" implementation since 2000
and i've yet to see it at least i didn't see it in the last public beta, nor have i heard anything since... except

"wow this sounds like a good idea maybe we'll implment it in future versins of CGE"

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My new site go now,
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Quote

Originally posted by Paddy Perring:
**
X: "No turn based is better!"
Y: "No, turn based sux, it's boring"
Pad: "Give in Kireck! ...Anyway realtime battle is better... ...And you'll probably have to bear it!

**

It's people like you who got the last topic locked. Please don't post here with an irrelavent opinion like that. Just because you like real-time... never mind, you aren't worth my time.

Anyway, I thought it would be nicer to work things out without freezing everything. It gives you more interrest when the monsters and people seem alive even though they aren't doing anything. The key to a good game is to keep you into the game and away from reality, when you get into the mentality of, "This person made a mistake right here" or "This GAME keeps stopping everything ackwardly"
You'd kinda fall in and out of the game if all of the sound and movement stopped everytime you were deciding what to do. I think that it wouldn't matter too much if NPCs weren't programmed to automatically attack you. That way, they'd stand there and look at you but still be animated (breathing/floating/flapping/oozing/flaming/etc...) and the only time you'd get to move was when you pressed a button that said fight or cast or whatever. Like in Mario RPG, even though you could stand there and do nothing for hours, you'd still feel like you were in the game because your enemy is still bouncing around. It leaves some of the intimidation of a dangerous enemy there. If you are looking at the head of a dragon taking up half of the screen that just sits there the whole time waiting for you to do something, you'd fall back into reality and you wouldn't be intimmidated by it because it's "NOT REAL." If it breathes and/or blinks and shoots steam out of it's nose, it would sorta remind you that as soon as you do something, I'm gonna bite the #%*& out of you. I was just wondering if the game always has to stop when a dialog box shows up. I noticed in PoG that whenever you talked to someone, everything stopped moving, even all of the little animations and stuff. I wanna know if there a way around this.

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