Unfortunately, plugs never go as planned, especially when Real Life™ jumps in. And its hard to predict development speed as well. You'll either finish things sooner or, more likely, later than you plan, never exactly when. After all, I had wanted CTC to be done in time for an April 1st release so nobody would believe it.

Are you listening to a word I say? I think you actually really wish that I were one of those blindly optimistic newb developers you keep talking about. I know it's big. I know it'll take a long time. I know there will be complications. I know I need to get experience first. I know a lot more than you're giving me credit for.

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 13 April 2007 - 05:01 PM

@starbridge21, on Apr 13 2007, 03:01 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Are you listening to a word I say? I think you actually really wish that I were one of those blindly optimistic newb developers you keep talking about. I know it's big. I know it'll take a long time. I know there will be complications. I know I need to get experience first. I know a lot more than you're giving me credit for.

Yes! Woo-hoo!

@starbridge21, on Apr 13 2007, 04:01 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Are you listening to a word I say? I think you actually really wish that I were one of those blindly optimistic newb developers you keep talking about. I know it's big. I know it'll take a long time. I know there will be complications. I know I need to get experience first. I know a lot more than you're giving me credit for.

Ho ho, that's what you think! I'm forced to ask the question: are you listening to a word we say?

@jacabyte, on Apr 13 2007, 06:43 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Ho ho, that's what you think! I'm forced to ask the question: are you listening to a word we say?

Unfortunately, you're all saying the same thing: you keep telling me to go slowly, and I keep replying that I'm going so slowly I'm practically going backwards. If you think I'm not getting the whole message, just tell me flat-out what you want to say. Because I keep telling you that I'm not starting this yet. In fact, I've already said I won't start a day sooner than August. Even if I finish the plot and I think I've got it, I'm going to keep practicing until August or later. Possibly I won't start 'til next August. So get off my case about that, tell me more about what you think of my story, suggestions of how I can improve anything at all, etc. Or even just suggestions on better ways to gain experience with EVNew. But please, stop trying to stop me from working on this plug. It won't work. That's the one bit of advice you could give me that I will simply completely disregard. I'm doing this plug -- not now! -- and you won't stop me; I'll do it when I, and I alone, think that I am ready. It is my decision to make.

They're trying to stop you because they don't think it will ever work out. There'll be a number of reasons for that but the primary one is simply that there have been many others like you who come along with a great story and think they can make a Nova TC about it. Hardly any of them ever really start though and those that have actually made a decent amount of progress won't necessarily ever finish. The biggest plug-ins released to date are Polycon (though I believe Polycon was in development as an EVO plug long before Nova was released) and Arpia II (of which there isn't really a whole lot of non-mission content). Nova is pretty old now and motivation for developing is low.

This post has been edited by Guy : 13 April 2007 - 10:17 PM

So they're putting me down because...they don't want to be disappointed? :huh: I guess that makes sense. I read about stuff like that on the boards, but everyone was so nice, I didn't really believe it; well, you can't just assume that I can't or won't do this just because other new members didn't keep their promises. I understand you don't want to get your hopes up, but that's no reason to put mine down; I want to make this plug! And, darn it, I'm not going to let statistics get in my way! I refuse to be just another person on a long list of disappointments! I'm no quitter; this plug will be made. But don't take my word for it; you just wait and see. No offense meant, but you guys need to be just a bit less pessimistic. And stop generalizing me based on other new members; I'm a person, not a number. <_<

I'm glad somebody around here finally told me what the heck was going on. Thanks, Guy.

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 13 April 2007 - 11:38 PM

Well possibly they're also trying to stop you from disappointing yourself. Like I said, the only person who has yet fulfilled promises of completing a large project is Pace. Also, I don't think anyone else was as far behind the starting line as you are right now when they started claiming so adamantly that they would see their TC though. (seriously, you're talking awfully strongly about a TC which is currently little more than an idea in your head - perhaps you should tell us about it ;))

@guy, on Apr 14 2007, 12:53 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Well possibly they're also trying to stop you from disappointing yourself.

I would disappoint myself more by quitting than by failing.

@guy, on Apr 14 2007, 12:53 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Like I said, the only person who has yet fulfilled promises of completing a large project is Pace.

Doesn't mean more won't follow.

@guy, on Apr 14 2007, 12:53 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Also, I don't think anyone else was as far behind the starting line as you are right now when they started claiming so adamantly that they would see their TC though. (seriously, you're talking awfully strongly about a TC which is currently little more than an idea in your head

That doesn't mean It will be harder, it means it will take longer. Which is fine. And it is more than an idea in my head -- though I admit that my head's the only one with my idea in it. Not that other people couldn't have thought to do this, just that I've not told anyone yet. Don't want to ruin it for a single person! Anyway, I am making outline-ish-es of the stories (on paper!).

@guy, on Apr 14 2007, 12:53 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

perhaps you should tell us about it ;))

Hehe...I don't think so. You want me to ruin the whole surprise beginning? (That's where the major twist will be -- the rest of the game will be nonstop action with an ever-developing story every time you land on a planet.) With the twist in the beginning (assuming you got onto a storyline), the end of the game will be a massive climax which could be several things depending on which gov't you're working for. My favorite climax so far is the 'Fed' storyline...though that's not what it would be called; that's just what I call it on the boards to refrain from giving anything away, and therefore, habitually in my mind and on paper.

Incidentally, unlike in Nova, there won't be a definitive 'ending': there will be a climax, all right. Most of the endings will leave you with little or no doubt as to how the story will ultimately end...but one of them will leave you hanging a bit -- just enough to leave room for more if there is demand for a sequel. This means there won't be a "and then, 200 trillion years later, humanity became one with the universe" ending; there will be a "what's going to happen next?!" ending.

@starbridge21, on Apr 14 2007, 05:36 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

I would disappoint myself more by quitting than by failing.

Good call ;). Though I think it's a matter of not starting rather than quitting part way through. Plus I'm not sure it's possible (or at least not likely) to 'fail' at TC creation as opposed to just quitting. Anyways, I'm not going to deter you though I would suggest you become familiar with Nova developing (or at least what is what isn't possible in terms of storytelling) before making promises.

This post has been edited by Guy : 14 April 2007 - 01:07 AM

@guy, on Apr 14 2007, 01:59 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

I would suggest you become familiar with Nova developing (or at least what is what isn't possible in terms of storytelling) before making promises.

Hmm good point with the what's possible, what isn't part. I hadn't really thought that through, though a fair amount of the story, as I said, is outlined before you get a mission and/or after you complete it. The rest is mostly things I've seen happen in Nova before, such as planets changing gov'ts after the completion of certain missions, etc. The one thing I'm not sure about though is whether I can make a certain caption appear at the bottom of the screen while in flight (like when people are talking to you, i.e., "I've got a job for you; hail me if you're interested."). Could I, for example, make a Fed Carrier say 'Retreat' when the Auroran ships in the system outnumber the Fed ships 2 to 1, and program the Fed ships to actually jump to another system at this point?

By the way Guy, I like the Goblin icon. And I understand the reference. Baleeted!

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 14 April 2007 - 01:21 AM

@starbridge21, on Apr 13 2007, 05:01 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Are you listening to a word I say? I think you actually really wish that I were one of those blindly optimistic newb developers you keep talking about. I know it's big. I know it'll take a long time. I know there will be complications. I know I need to get experience first. I know a lot more than you're giving me credit for.

I am listening to what you said. My post was in reply to your post about all these planned dates of when alpha, beta, etc. will happen. My post is simply trying to tell you what to expect. You can't plan when each phase will come. Well, you can, but it may come sooner or later than expected. For example, CTC was originally planned to be done by the end of summer last year. Then last April 1st. Then sometime later this year. Now I'm expecting beta to come along in about two weeks with release before the end of summer.

Another piece of advice. When you do start, make up a "dev schedule" and try your best to stick to it. It helps, though its hard to stay with. I know from personal experience.

@starbridge21, on Apr 14 2007, 06:18 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

The one thing I'm not sure about though is whether I can make a certain caption appear at the bottom of the screen while in flight (like when people are talking to you, i.e., "I've got a job for you; hail me if you're interested."). Could I, for example, make a Fed Carrier say 'Retreat' when the Auroran ships in the system outnumber the Fed ships 2 to 1, and program the Fed ships to actually jump to another system at this point?

Sort of. You can make ships of a certain govt retreat when the odds are against them by a certain ratio (each ship defines a 'strength' property). You can also make captions appear when you complete a mission 'ship goal'. If your ship goal is to 'chase ships off' then it might work but it probably wouldn't appear until after the ships had all retreated.

@starbridge21, on Apr 14 2007, 06:18 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

By the way Guy, I like the Goblin icon. And I understand the reference. Baleeted!

@joshtigerheart, on Apr 14 2007, 02:46 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

I am listening to what you said. My post was in reply to your post about all these planned dates of when alpha, beta, etc. will happen. My post is simply trying to tell you what to expect. You can't plan when each phase will come. Well, you can, but it may come sooner or later than expected.

No offense, but, well, duh. Of course, if I try to guess when everything will be ready, most likely it will be way off (or at least inaccurate). I was just trying to make myself a deadline -- it's better to say 'start this by 6 months from now' than to say 'finish this in three years.' Deadlines help you have a more organized completion progress. I'll have to make it more specific, but for now I figured that would do; I want to have a greater understanding of the project I've assigned myself, and deadlines can help you do that.

@guy, on Apr 14 2007, 03:13 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Sort of. You can make ships of a certain govt retreat when the odds are against them by a certain ratio (each ship defines a 'strength' property). You can also make captions appear when you complete a mission 'ship goal'. If your ship goal is to 'chase ships off' then it might work but it probably wouldn't appear until after the ships had all retreated.

How about...if the goal is to jump into the system; when you jump into the system, two govs are fighting, and one is losing -- lets call the loser gov A and the winners gov B; so now the mission is accomplished, and the mission text will appear at the bottom, so I make it "Help us! We're under attack!" from gov A. I set the mission up to be immediately followed by another mission, such as, "Destroy Gov B ships" but that's not the requirement for completing the mission -- the requirement is govB = twice as many ships as gov A. Then when the situation meets those requirements, the end mission text will by my pilot telling govA to retreat and where to go. Also followed immediately by another mission, "land on planet X." Could that work? I hope so -- it took me a whole 10 seconds to think of it, and I wouldn't want that to be time wasted.

Guy, how do you type with boxing gloves on??

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 14 April 2007 - 10:43 AM

@starbridge21, on Apr 14 2007, 10:41 AM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

No offense, but, well, duh. Of course, if I try to guess when everything will be ready, most likely it will be way off (or at least inaccurate). I was just trying to make myself a deadline -- it's better to say 'start this by 6 months from now' than to say 'finish this in three years.' Deadlines help you have a more organized completion progress. I'll have to make it more specific, but for now I figured that would do; I want to have a greater understanding of the project I've assigned myself, and deadlines can help you do that.

Well, expect to miss deadlines, especially if you're in college. I tend to miss them even for small plugs because of outside interference.

Quote

How about...if the goal is to jump into the system; when you jump into the system, two govs are fighting, and one is losing -- lets call the loser gov A and the winners gov B; so now the mission is accomplished, and the mission text will appear at the bottom, so I make it "Help us! We're under attack!" from gov A. I set the mission up to be immediately followed by another mission, such as, "Destroy Gov B ships" but that's not the requirement for completing the mission -- the requirement is govB = twice as many ships as gov A. Then when the situation meets those requirements, the end mission text will by my pilot telling govA to retreat and where to go. Also followed immediately by another mission, "land on planet X." Could that work? I hope so -- it took me a whole 10 seconds to think of it, and I wouldn't want that to be time wasted.

That would be...quite difficult if its possible. It may be possible to set up the govt b=2x ships using counters or maybe crons (I doubt it), but otherwise that would be impossible. It'd also be impossible to have them jump in slowly without multiple mission resources and probably crons too if thats you're intent. The retreating part would probably be trickier and I'm not sure how to go about that unless the govt A ships are treated as player escorts, which would then leave with the player.

The biggest challenge though is making sure govt B doesn't totally obliterate govt A within five minutes. Nova battles are notoriously short. This can be got around by using special ships that have really high shields and armor.

It'd also have to be a relatively small battle, since the ship limit in a system is 64 (might be slightly higher or lower), which includes fighters.

@joshtigerheart, on Apr 14 2007, 12:24 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

Well, expect to miss deadlines, especially if you're in college. I tend to miss them even for small plugs because of outside interference.

It's cool, I won't be in college for 2 years. I'll probably do most of the work over the summers anyway.

@joshtigerheart, on Apr 14 2007, 12:24 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

That would be...quite difficult if its possible. It may be possible to set up the govt b=2x ships using counters or maybe crons (I doubt it), but otherwise that would be impossible. It'd also be impossible to have them jump in slowly without multiple mission resources and probably crons too if thats you're intent. The retreating part would probably be trickier and I'm not sure how to go about that unless the govt A ships are treated as player escorts, which would then leave with the player.

I don't see why it would be so impossible. It sounds pretty simple to me, it's just a semi-complicated string of three or so missions. I don't know what you mean by 'jump in slowly', but as the govtA ships would already be set to retreat when govtB# = 2xgovtA#, and the mission goal would also end then, they should happen at the same time.

@joshtigerheart, on Apr 14 2007, 12:24 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

The biggest challenge though is making sure govt B doesn't totally obliterate govt A within five minutes. Nova battles are notoriously short. This can be got around by using special ships that have really high shields and armor.

The ships won't be destroyed; they'll be losing, but there won't be too much of a problem, since govtA ships are much faster than govtB ships and have fairly high shields, so they can outrun govtB and take some glancing hits.

@joshtigerheart, on Apr 14 2007, 12:24 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

It'd also have to be a relatively small battle, since the ship limit in a system is 64 (might be slightly higher or lower), which includes fighters.

It will be big, but not quite 64 ships. There will probably be about 10 govtA capital ships and 15 govtB capital ships. There won't be more than a total of 20 fighters; there also will probably be about 8 other, 'neutral' ships in the system. And don't worry about, by some twist, govtA accidentally destroying govtB -- govtB ships have more firepower and more defense and the strength of numbers, though, as I said before, they are slower.
If my arithmetic is correct, that's a total of about 54 ships (including the player's). And I think you're right about the limit being 64. Of course, I could change this if I find that it doesn't work out quite how I want it to -- make there only 14 govtB ships, for example.

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 15 April 2007 - 02:09 PM

Ah...if any of you should happen to deduce the concept of my plot, I beg you not to mention it to anyone. You can private message me your suspicions or something if you feel like you have to tell someone, but I won't answer. The only satisfaction you'll get is when I release alpha-testing and you realize you were right; I will tell no-one the plot twists before then.

Incidentally, you can read the story summaries and a kind of 'teaser' on the very first post. I update it often, so you can check it often.

This post has been edited by Starbridge21 : 15 April 2007 - 10:10 PM

'Bridge, I just had a thought about what to call your TC, and I think it would be fitting:

EV: Breaking Point.

@starbridge21, on Apr 14 2007, 12:30 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

but as the govtA ships would already be set to retreat when govtB# = 2xgovtA#, and the mission goal would also end then, they should happen at the same time.

Thats the problem, Nova doesn't work like that. If there was a way to determine if one govt has twice as many ships in the system as another, it'd be complicated to the point of not being worth the effort and would probably require numerous missions, bits, and crons. In short: Nova doesn't have scripting.

Edit: If you can find a way for it to work acceptably, I'm sure there is a number of people who would be interested in hearing.

This post has been edited by JoshTigerheart : 16 April 2007 - 10:18 AM

@starbridge21, on Apr 14 2007, 05:41 PM, said in Escape Velocity: Collision:

How about...if the goal is to jump into the system; when you jump into the system, two govs are fighting, and one is losing -- lets call the loser gov A and the winners gov B; so now the mission is accomplished, and the mission text will appear at the bottom, so I make it "Help us! We're under attack!" from gov A. I set the mission up to be immediately followed by another mission, such as, "Destroy Gov B ships" but that's not the requirement for completing the mission -- the requirement is govB = twice as many ships as gov A. Then when the situation meets those requirements, the end mission text will by my pilot telling govA to retreat and where to go. Also followed immediately by another mission, "land on planet X." Could that work? I hope so -- it took me a whole 10 seconds to think of it, and I wouldn't want that to be time wasted.

I'm trying to imagine this, so bear with me.

We start with two NEW gövt resources, duplicates of the gövts they're meant to represent, but specifically created for the occasion (easiest to do it that way otherwise, the "retreat when outnumbered 2 to 1" figure will stick to the gövt, and you might not want that later on): gövt A has a maximum odds of 200, gövt B can have anything above 500, for all we care right now.

Then you have two invisible missions, probably both started at the same moment. One has the düde of ships of gövt A in the "special ships" section, and the other has the düde of gövt B in its special ships section.

The mission with gövt B's ships has a goal of "Observe", i.e. the ship objective will be complete as soon as you enter the system where the fight is going on. Then you get the mission to display the STR(#) resource you want at the bottom of the screen, as the "On ShipDone" result.

Next, and this is the part where I'm not sure whether it'll work or not, is when the mission with gövt A's ships becomes useful. Now, I've no idea if this works or not, but try having a mission where the player's goal is to "Chase or Destroy" the ships, and the ships themselves have a "Normal" behaviour. I say it might not work, because I don't know whether, when the player is an ally of the gövt, the "normal" behaviour (i.e. ignore the player and fight the enemies instead) enters into conflict with the "chase or destroy" objective. But if that doesn't work, I reckon you'll have to test the "protect the player" behaviour instead, see if that works.

In any case, if we're lucky, this means that the player will ultimately have to either sit back and relax while the two fleets destroy each other, or start attacking gövt B (if you make the message clear, then the thought of attacking gövt A will not enter the player's mind).
And when gövt A's ships are finally outnumbered, despite the player's efforts to stop this from happening (you might have to have something ready in case the player does manage to avert the massacre), they'll flee. ShipObjective met, and then you can display a real dësc this time (might be better, maybe even in both cases, than just a STR message on the bottom of the screen, one that the player might not read).

There. The next step is easy: have a visible mission, this time, that aborts the other two missions, and make it start as soon as that last objective is met, and there, the mission is simple: "Go to X".

Or you could even have a special combination of this (it would involve three invisible missions this time, without counting the visible mission I've just mentioned) to ensure that, once the gövt A fleet has gone, the gövt B ships start attacking the player. Could be fun.

Of course, I would like to insist on this: I have no idea whether the above suggestion will work. Do not forget to test, because I've never tried to emulate this kind of behaviour, especially given the awkward combination of "chase & destroy" and "normal"/"protect the player".

Here's to hoping Nova accepts these weird reasonings.