@eugene-chin, on Oct 24 2007, 05:53 PM, said in Ship component slots...:

You have about 512 slots for outfits.

You have about 767 slots for different ships, or different variants of ships.

Lets say we're looking at a single model of fighter, and we want:

1. Varying strengths of engines and shields, independent of each other.
2. Compatibility with capturing.

If we allow for three different engines for our model of fighter (Small, Medium, Large), and three levels of shield-power (Thin, Normal, Thick), then we will have 9 different variants of this model of fighter. We would be able to support 85 different models of ships with this system, without using any outfits.

This bypasses the problem of putting fighter-engines on much larger models of ships, and saves outfit slots for other things.

I see what you're saying, but it won't get me what I want. I have, bare minimum, three components for each ship: power core, engine, shield generator. I want progression, along with choices at each progress level. I need at least two outfits per progress level for a choice to exist, and at least two progress levels for there to be any progression. So if I do things your way, I would need at least 64 ship resources for each ship type.

And ideally I want at least twice that many choices per slot, plus several more slots to play with.

This post has been edited by Tsuki : 24 October 2007 - 01:47 PM

I would say keep to power core, engine, and shield generator, and have several levels - three would be fine, I imagine - and have versions of each type for various governments. I would also suggest that you don't need absolutely every combination filled in ship classes: for instance, one class could have the highest output engine that it can get, and extra weaponry, but low shields and armor. Then another class could have high shields, low armor, heavy weaponry, and a smaller engine (might thrusters be a better term?). It might not be possible to fit large shields, a strong power core, and a fast engine on the same ship. Plus, you can have cargo space to consider: one ship class could have a small cargo bay but be able to fit a larger engine because of it, but another class could have a large cargo bay, a large power core for long-ranged trading, and weak armor, a small shield generator, slow engines, and minimal weaponry. With this, you have five variables that you can modify, but I really see no reason to give the AI every possible combination of engines, shields, and cores. Five or six variants MAX would work fine (I would suggest two or three, so you have the basic AI version and the player version that the player can modify, meaning 4-6 ship resources.).

@crusader-alpha, on Oct 24 2007, 03:30 PM, said in Ship component slots...:

I would say keep to power core, engine, and shield generator, and have several levels - three would be fine, I imagine - and have versions of each type for various governments. I would also suggest that you don't need absolutely every combination filled in ship classes: for instance, one class could have the highest output engine that it can get, and extra weaponry, but low shields and armor. Then another class could have high shields, low armor, heavy weaponry, and a smaller engine (might thrusters be a better term?). It might not be possible to fit large shields, a strong power core, and a fast engine on the same ship. Plus, you can have cargo space to consider: one ship class could have a small cargo bay but be able to fit a larger engine because of it, but another class could have a large cargo bay, a large power core for long-ranged trading, and weak armor, a small shield generator, slow engines, and minimal weaponry. With this, you have five variables that you can modify, but I really see no reason to give the AI every possible combination of engines, shields, and cores. Five or six variants MAX would work fine (I would suggest two or three, so you have the basic AI version and the player version that the player can modify, meaning 4-6 ship resources.).

Right, I like to use cargo space for more than, well, cargo. You could edit free mass to be external free mass and cargo to be internal free mass.

Oh and crusader, no need to care much for power cores. This is the one feature that is the most painless as you can make the ship's fuel regeneration apply only to the AI. Engine, shield and armor are the ones that cause most problems.

@crusader-alpha, on Oct 24 2007, 07:30 PM, said in Ship component slots...:

I would say keep to power core, engine, and shield generator, and have several levels - three would be fine, I imagine - and have versions of each type for various governments. I would also suggest that you don't need absolutely every combination filled in ship classes: for instance, one class could have the highest output engine that it can get, and extra weaponry, but low shields and armor. Then another class could have high shields, low armor, heavy weaponry, and a smaller engine (might thrusters be a better term?). It might not be possible to fit large shields, a strong power core, and a fast engine on the same ship. Plus, you can have cargo space to consider: one ship class could have a small cargo bay but be able to fit a larger engine because of it, but another class could have a large cargo bay, a large power core for long-ranged trading, and weak armor, a small shield generator, slow engines, and minimal weaponry. With this, you have five variables that you can modify, but I really see no reason to give the AI every possible combination of engines, shields, and cores. Five or six variants MAX would work fine (I would suggest two or three, so you have the basic AI version and the player version that the player can modify, meaning 4-6 ship resources.).

Right, I wouldn't make a ship resource for every possible combination for the AI to use. For instance, with 3 slots, 2 progression levels, and 2 choices per level, you might really only need 4 AI ships. You could have "all option A, tier 1", "all option B, tier 1", "all option A, tier 2", and "all option B, tier 2".

However, while the AI might stick with the more obvious combos, I would want every combination to be available to the player. And not everything would be a slot - you bring up cargo space, and I think that's a good example. I don't think I would do a "cargo hold" slot; instead I'd offer the player a few different ship models with more or less cargo space according to the intent of the ship.

So if I'm understanding you right, we're basically thinking the same thing. ^_^

Okay, I know how to solve the problem with engine size. This might only be possible in MissionComputer, but:
Make the outfits mass and price relative to the ship mass. In MissionComputer, right under the mass and price slots, there are two check boxes. Check them both. Now put values into the price and mass. Go into the game, and adjust those two values until they are appropriate.

@0101181920, on Oct 24 2007, 11:01 PM, said in Ship component slots...:

Okay, I know how to solve the problem with engine size. This might only be possible in MissionComputer, but:
Make the outfits mass and price relative to the ship mass. In MissionComputer, right under the mass and price slots, there are two check boxes. Check them both. Now put values into the price and mass. Go into the game, and adjust those two values until they are appropriate.

It's a way to save some outfits, I guess. I'd never thought about making engines taking mass related to your ship's mass. And I see no reason it wouldn't be possible with other editors. EVNEW, for one, can do it just fine.

@0101181920, on Oct 25 2007, 03:01 AM, said in Ship component slots...:

Okay, I know how to solve the problem with engine size. This might only be possible in MissionComputer, but:
Make the outfits mass and price relative to the ship mass. In MissionComputer, right under the mass and price slots, there are two check boxes. Check them both. Now put values into the price and mass. Go into the game, and adjust those two values until they are appropriate.

I'm actually not too concerned with this...although maybe I should be. I'll try to type up a more complete rundown of what I have in mind tomorrow, to explain why I think I have this issue covered. The short version though is this: you'd need more than just an engine to make your ship go. I'll have to think about it though, maybe I don't have this as figured out as I thought I did. :unsure:

Here is a more detailed description of what I have in mind as the components of a standard ship:

Chassis/Body: armor, free mass, cargo capacity, fixed gun and turret maximums, stock weapons, crew, ship mass (this is the ship resource)

Power core: fuel capacity, fuel regeneration, acceleration modifier, speed modifier

Engine: acceleration, speed, turn rate modifier, fuel usage

Thrusters: turn rate, ion dissipater, fuel usage

Shield generator: shields, shield regeneration, fuel usage

Wiring and electronics: ion absorb modifier, ion dissipation modifier, fuel efficiency (and Contribute bits needed for better sensors or other devices)

Hyperdrive: any hyperspace mod, possible fuel usage

Armor plating: armor modifier, acceleration/speed/turn modifier (penalties for more mass)

Droids and ship computer: armor regeneration, repair system, auto-recharge, auto-eject (possible Contribute bits)

Sensor array: interference mod, murk mod, density scanner, IFF

Anything that says "modifier" is a lesser contributer of that value, not the primary source. I was originally going to have negative values or zeros in the ship resource for acceleration, speed, and all that - I guess I'll have to use up more outfit resources to accomplish that though, so the AI can use the ship too.

Afterburners would come standard (maybe Gxxx it to the player on purchase of power core), conceptually an "all power to engines" option rather than a device that performs a fuel dump. Most of the remaining outfit mods would be handled more conventionally.

Anyway, as you can probably guess, you'll need a power core capable of supplying all your component parts with fuel to keep yourself from running empty. All energy weapons (including light blasters and the like) would have a fuel cost as well, so you're not just looking to break even: you need a surplus. This is why I'm not too worried about small ship parts and large ship parts mingling: not only is there free mass to consider, but a large engine on a small ship power core would flatline your fuel gage before you got to jump distance. You wouldn't even be able to fire a blaster.

This may seem like too much, but I think the 512 outfit limit is high enough to manage. Even if you had 40 different outfits for each of the slots (20 for small ships and 20 for large, perhaps) you'd still have 152 outfit resources left, which would hopefully be enough. And not every slot concept needs that many variations anyway (hyperdrives, for example).

I know it's very involved though, the kind of plug-in concept that goes vaporware really fast...which is why I asked for help thinking it through. :laugh: I didn't want to put lots of hours into it before discovering something like the no-outfits-for-AI problem. I really appreciate the comments.

This post has been edited by Tsuki : 25 October 2007 - 10:41 AM

At this point, we're talking about a TC or extremely intensive quasi-TC project.

Also, note that you can just give the player a persistent, can't be sold, invisible afterburner outfit right at the start of the game by placing a G### in the char resource, if you want free afterburners.

Oh and maybe you don't need me to remind you, but looking at all this I must say that some of these things have too many effects. You can only have up to 4 modifiers on outfits. And for power cores, fuel scoops work with lower numbers to reach higher fuel regeneration, which means if you want anything more precise or higher than 30 per seconds, you already burn 2 mod slots on your power core outfit out of 4.

I also find a bit odd that thrusters would give ion dissipation, but I guess it goes down to personnal preference as to what gives what.

@mumbling-psycho, on Oct 25 2007, 04:50 PM, said in Ship component slots...:

At this point, we're talking about a TC or extremely intensive quasi-TC project.

Also, note that you can just give the player a persistent, can't be sold, invisible afterburner outfit right at the start of the game by placing a G### in the char resource, if you want free afterburners.

Oh and maybe you don't need me to remind you, but looking at all this I must say that some of these things have too many effects. You can only have up to 4 modifiers on outfits. And for power cores, fuel scoops work with lower numbers to reach higher fuel regeneration, which means if you want anything more precise or higher than 30 per seconds, you already burn 2 mod slots on your power core outfit out of 4.

I also find a bit odd that thrusters would give ion dissipation, but I guess it goes down to personnal preference as to what gives what.

You're right, this would be a major conversion. I have no artistic skill to speak of so wouldn't attempt new graphics; I don't currently have any means to produce new sounds or music either, so those are out too. Pretty much everything else I can and want to change. My goal at the moment is a very small universe with a basic set of repeatable missions, a few ships to fly around and a small selection of outfits to choose from. If that works well enough and I have the motivation to keep expanding it, maybe it would eventually build into something I'd put out there for other people to play. If not, then...eh, shrug. At least I would've finally gotten to see the ideas in action, even if it turns out that it couldn't ever work the way I wanted it to.

Regarding the mod limit: nothing has more than four mods, unless you wanted a hyperdrive that had all four hyperspace mods plus fuel usage. The per-frame nature of fuel regeneration might turn out to be a problem though, you're right to point that out. I had thought it would be enough to work with, but now I'm not so sure.

EDIT: Oh! And the ion dissipation on thrusters - there is a reason for that. This is what I'm thinking of: ion thrusters. My pseudo-science is that the extra electrons ionizing your ship would be channeled through your chassis and into the cathode filament of the ion thruster which would then expel them.

This post has been edited by Tsuki : 25 October 2007 - 12:55 PM

Some input on the mods for components:

I had established the two of the four guidance types to depend on either infrared (heat) or radar emissions. Therefore, I was able to justify making some additional twists in the type of sensor arrays, (such as a passive array, keeping people from firing certain secondary weapons with the benefit of increased radar jamming), types of engines (certain engines produce greater amounts of heat, leading to a decrease IR jamming performance), and types of armor/hull coatings (Radar absorbent material, for example).

Werhner

This was also done in CTC.

I still think that mine makes a fair amount of sense. You want a bit more armor? You don't buy a half-ton of tritanium and spread it over a 1.2 kilometer long ship. This is actually what they used in evn for the carbon fiber and other armors. Why not apply it to other things as well? A fighter engine wouldn't move a Leviathen. Install a larger version, then. And it saves a lot of resources.

Curses, double post.

This post has been edited by 101181920 : 28 October 2007 - 02:14 PM

Uncle Twitchy did something like this in SFA, except it wasn't ship parts but command crew.

If anyone is interested, I've been testing ideas and had some success. I made a mission with:

• Available Ship Type set to the ship I was capturing

• Main spaceport

• Can abort

• Can't refuse

• Invisible

• 1 day time limit

• The matching Hxxx in OnAccept

The result is an on-landing pop-up "Okay"-only mission window that fires the OnAccept trigger, swaps your ship to the player-ready version, and then goes away. The mission fails when the game advances the calendar a day (on lift-off) and is automatically removed (because of "Can abort") but the player doesn't receive a confusing notification of failure (because it's invisible).

I've encountered one minor problem with this, but otherwise it works. The problem is: if you've already landed on a planet, then take off and capture a ship in that system, then return immediately to that same planet, the mission won't fire. I guess the game doesn't re-evaluate mission availability for a given spob until you land on a different spob, or warp to a new system. I could land and take off as much as I liked on that same planet, but the mission wouldn't trigger. I think I can live with that, though - I can't think of any way to get around it, anyhow. :mellow:

I also worked out a way to set every player ship to the pre-set negative values I wanted with no more than 8 outfits (though I've since realized there's really no point) while still allowing the AI to control the ship as an escort. Start the ship with base AI-usable values. Each "offset" outfit is set to the lowest increment you plan to use (like, "-5 acceleration") and you use the count field to multiply that value for the total desired effect (so to achieve -600 acceleration, you'd saddle the ship with 120 "-5 acceleration" outfits). Since you've got eight Count fields, eight values could be handled individually that way. The desired default component outfits could be Gxxx'd in OnPurchase or in the OnAccept of the ship-swapping mission. The AI can still fly the ship as an escort since it ignores the offset outfits. It's no good for the AI otherwise though, since capturing it to use as your own would stick you with all the offsets but none of the components, stranding you where you took it. Plenty of room for ship classes though, so that's easily avoided.

Thing is, that really doesn't get me much. It makes the slot concept somewhat more tangible - an empty slot is truly empty, instead of assumed to be filled by some invisible cheapo factory model - but that's about it. However, it also opens up the possibility for the player to mis-manage funds and find himself stuck in a ship with no engine, which isn't good. I also save some outfit resources by not doing it this way.

One last thing: it occurred to me that the number of mission resources eaten up by ship swapping can be reduced by a design concession. Reserve some of your ship classes to only be used as special ships in missions. Set all such ships to crew = 0. Inform the player of the plug that mission-related ships can't be captured; perhaps customize the target picture in some way to give a visual reminder when the player targets one of these ships. This way, you can still have lots of variety in your universe, while still allowing some ship capture in a consistent fashion.

This post has been edited by Tsuki : 28 October 2007 - 02:55 PM

I've actually had a very very similar setup for Revenant for more than a year now at least. Of course it's gotten out of hand and I was planning on reducing the amounts of subsystem slots this very evening (I'm currently at 39, and I'm culling at least half of them.)

I haven't gone as in depth though. Good work with the capturing stuff!

@verb, on Oct 30 2007, 05:42 AM, said in Ship component slots...:

I've actually had a very very similar setup for Revenant for more than a year now at least. Of course it's gotten out of hand and I was planning on reducing the amounts of subsystem slots this very evening (I'm currently at 39, and I'm culling at least half of them.)

I haven't gone as in depth though. Good work with the capturing stuff!

39? :blink: That's impressive, but sounds like it would be hard to track all of it. Besides the more obvious stuff like engines and shield generators, what kinds of things did you define as slots?

@mumbling-psycho, on Oct 25 2007, 04:50 PM, said in Ship component slots...:

You can only have up to 4 modifiers on outfits. And for power cores, fuel scoops work with lower numbers to reach higher fuel regeneration, which means if you want anything more precise or higher than 30 per seconds, you already burn 2 mod slots on your power core outfit out of 4.

I've been thinking about this. Really, the limitation is only internal. Create a second outfit, leaving the name fields blank, mass and cost of zero, and set the tech level too high for any outfitter to display it. Gxxx this 'extension outfit' in the original outfit's OnPurchase. The player will only see the outfit they bought - which from their perspective is a single outfit with more than 4 effects.

You're spending two resources to do it, but the player doesn't know that if you hide it (unless he's a plug-in designer too).

It was a pain to keep track of. Most of the extra outfits were unique to subsystems that were only compatible with a certain technology. I had it down to what type of electrical/power systems a ship had (and subsequently what outfits could be plugged into them.)

Currently the subsystems fit into 6 basic categories: weapons, power, hyperspace, IT systems (scanners etc.), defense systems (shields, armor etc.), and ship modifications (mass retools etc.). The problem is that I still have too many ports. Aside from basic ports that I'm keeping (universal power, hyperspace, cannon and turret nacelles, etc.) Some examples of the old slots were: plasmatic diffusion nodes, phase distribution dies, type i-iv shielding ports, nanite dispersal vents ...the list goes on and on--well, used to anyway.

@tsuki, on Oct 30 2007, 08:29 PM, said in Ship component slots...:

I've been thinking about this. Really, the limitation is only internal. Create a second outfit, leaving the name fields blank, mass and cost of zero, and set the tech level too high for any outfitter to display it. Gxxx this 'extension outfit' in the original outfit's OnPurchase. The player will only see the outfit they bought - which from their perspective is a single outfit with more than 4 effects.

Do keep in mind that you'll have to give the second invisible oufit to any ships that have the first--which will use up slots and you'll run into problems with capturing, as you've already seen.

This post has been edited by Verb : 30 October 2007 - 03:51 PM